Saint Paul Issues and Forums/ hypocrisy and defending the status quo
posted by Bob at Saturday, January 01, 2011
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Saturday, January 01, 2011
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108 Comments:
Isn't the forum that Chuck and Eric are so proud of?
I like how SPIF says that they promote democracy, but they run the place like a communist organization; no elections, keeping their party in power at all costs and controlling the message.
I am surprised that the Ford Foundation would give them such a large grant.
Just so you know I have never been a member of any of the Forum boards or management groups. I post there the same as I do here.... more here because there is a two post a day limit there.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Chuck who are you fooling. You and Thune have the run of that St. Paul Issues Forum. You and Eric and the rest of the St. Paul DFL use the St. Paul Issues Forum to spew your crap. There is NO democracy in E-democracy.
11:57 - like I said I post there like I do there. Dann Dobson one of the people Bob mentioned was the person that I partnered with in the successful suit against Fair vote for unfair campaign practices....
Its amazing how small your mind is...
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
So Chuck and Mr. Dobson have partnered up on the issue of Fair vote for unfair campaign practices.
So are you going to support him in his fight for Democracy at St. Paul Issues Forum or are you going to cave in, due to pressure from Clift, Mons and Kelly?
Are you going to stand up for what is right or are you going to be bullied by the thugs at SPIF? Are you a man or a mouse?
They are all Democrats from hell.
Their forum of Saint Paul Issues and Forums has black listed the common complainers about the way St.Paul is run by this Gestapo likes government that only cares for their own crowd, its a click of one sided democrats that feel they can do as they please at SPIF.
That Garce Kelly is really the fat lady that sings the DFL song.
from spif.
But at the risk of being labeled one of the "complainers" here are my
questions to the e-democracy board, it's defenders and Executive Director,
Steve Clift:
1. When are the elections for the Board of e-democracy?
2. How does one get to be a candidate for the Board of e-democracy?
3. When and where are the Board Meetings of e-democracy held?
4. Have the minutes of e-democracy ever been posted and if so where?
5. If the minutes of the Board of e-democracy have not been posted, why not
and will they be posted in the future?
I am on the boards of three non-profits in Twin Cities, including the
District Council 16 / Summit Hill Association. The Summit Hill Association
maintains a website and holds regular monthly meetings that are open to the
public. Our minutes are published each month, as well as our annual and
monthly financial statements.
I would think that any group that calls itself a "democracy" would at least
make this very basic information available on it's website or publicly
available in some manner.
I find it ironic that E-democracy thinks its Mission is to promote democracy
around the world, yet it's Board, Moderators and Executive Director
vigorously resists real democracy on its owns Forums and Board.
Dann Dobson
Summit Hill - Saint Paul
Hi All,
I ommitted my previuos link to this story in favor of a pdf link on the front page.
SPIF is a 501c non profit with the objective charter of bringing communities and government together. E Democracy forums claim to be diverse and inclusive of all members of our communities. History has proven contrary.
Numerous conservative voices have been ostracized by moderators and board members. The forum has taken on the appearance of a liberal indoctrination cesspool.
Marty Owings, Dann Dobson, and John Krenik all current members of SPIF are challenging the status quo of the board members and moderators of the forum.
Marty and Dann are liberal democrats who believe in free speech. John is a conservative who has managed to weather the storm of ostracization tactics by SPIF board members and moderators. The libs of E Democracy boards and moderators are the closest thing to communism we will ever see in America. I remember when SPIF had an electronic town hall with the mayor at a local library, all kinds of commies showed up from the SPIF forum professing their communist party affiliation.
The Feedback Forum of SPIF is closed to the public. They don't like their dirty laundry made public over there. I believe in sunshine politics so for you here in the light I bring the Feedback Forum of SPIF out of the darkness.
I sent a link to the Ford Foundation.
Folk's Steven Clift has put Dann Dobson on moderation at the E Democracy forums. This is what happens over at E Democracy when they don't agree with you.
Dann you are welcome here anytime.
Can't open your doc Try This
https://acrobat.com/app.html#d=3B1FuhWXNfksjpwf*ULoQA
157 pages Use as Evidence of FCC Violations by the Non-Profit E-Dem
Since Sharon Anderson Suspended in perputituy from the Evil Democracy
Bobby when you have Adobe Account scrool to bottom Left and Click Publish
Best I can do http://www.scribd.com/doc/46170603/SPIFfeedback-Notepad
Bobby the Adobe is trial period apparantly does not open
Thank you Sharon!
I hope you read the piece Sharon. Your name was mentioned in it.
I'm happy to let stinking moonbats enjoy the solitude of their echo chambers. God knows I've rubbed their noses in their own shit enough times.
But not only does their hypocritical discrimination violate their tax exempt status, their tax exempt status violates their hypocritical rhetoric.
Is there a bottom to the leftist sewer? Can the slime just keep going on forever?
Just a for your info.... if you read this in reverse order you will see my last post on the Minnesota issue forum; my warning for calling ignorant, arrogant Republican talking heads, "ignorant, arrogant Republican talking heads;" and my request to withdraw from the forum... as I did in April of this year.
So, don't say that I am in charge of anything at e-dem...
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Please send me the link to withdraw from the forum.
Chuck
In a message dated 4/20/2010 11:00:06 P.M. Central Daylight Time, mattp@pobox.com writes:
Mr. Repke:
Please refrain from referring to others as "ignorant" in the pejorative
manner in which you did in your post copied below. Your use of
"arrogant" in this sentence without providing context borders on
inflamed speech.
"The affluent, arrogant, ignorant Republican talking heads that advocate
the destruction of government forget that those who have the most to
lose are those that actually have something to lose."
These characterizations add nothing to the discussion, it takes away
from the compelling points you are making and, most importantly, is name
calling which is prohibited by the forum participation rules.
This is an *un*official warning. It is not a formal warning.
Please keep in mind all of the forum participation rules, including the
civility rules, in your future postings.
http://e-democracy.org/rules
Thank you.
Sincerely,
Matt Perry
East Harriet Farmstead/Minneapolis
Forum Manager
On Tue, 2010-04-20 at 09:14 -0400, Chuckrepke@aol.com wrote:
> Kris, I would offer, who has more to lose if the government was to fall
> apart, melt into oblivion and chaos would run rampant in the streets?
>
> ...the person who is already living under a bridge, or the person who's
> house he is going to break into to steal today's funds to live on?
>
> ...the person who doesn't have a job or the person who's business is
> burning down around them?
>
> The affluent, arrogant, ignorant Republican talking heads that advocate the
> destruction of government forget that those who have the most to lose are
> those that actually have something to lose.
>
> There are three main things funded by state, county and municipal
> governments.
>
> 1. The education of our youths... (the workers in the wealthy's companies).
> 2. Public Works (the roads and bridges to get their products to market).
> 3. Public Safety/Corrections and welfare (the police, fire, courts and
> prisons to directly protect the wealthy and a crust of bread to reduce the
> number of potential criminals).
>
> They all appear to me to be services designed to facilitate business having
> employees, being able to move their goods and services and protection of
> the wealthy from the poor.
>
> Looks to me like the wealthy should pay more since the purpose of almost
> all of the expenses are to assist and protect the wealthy.
>
> JMONTOMEPPOF
>
> Chuck Repke
>
1. I've posted here more in the last month than I have in two years over at SPIF.
2. SPIF is a project of E-Democracy which has grown to forums across the world and is a legit 501c3
3. The absolute best thing about is that everyone must use their real names.
4. Bob, you've received funding from your landlord buddies in the past and in return you allow them to say and aver whatever they want on here.
5. You've got a few crybabies who think the rules are against them.
You like posting anonymous garbage? You've got ADemocracy, Pioneer Press Comment Section, Strib Comment section, Fox News website, etc. One place, started by a couple of people decided you must sign your name and a few people cry bloody murder.
Some of you people act like you have a right to post on SPIF, you don't. It was one person's idea that he made happen. You don't like the rules or what we say over there, start you own listserve (its not a blog). Its not a city entity or owned by the public.
Its like a church, which are 501c3. There are rules to membership and if you don't like the sermons or the way they preach the word, you leave and go to another church, or start your own, or just stop going.
Dan Dobson is doing what he does best, complain. He has a right a to start his own free list serve.
Eric
LMAO
It appears that all of the missing messages are reappearing...
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
I FIGURED OUT THE GLITCH! Blogger added a spam box to the blog. Comments were being labeled as spam. I remedied the problem.
I remember when SPIF had an electronic town hall with the mayor at a local library, all kinds of commies showed up from the SPIF forum professing their communist party affiliation.
What kind of 1950's bullshit is this Bob? Really? Did we all stand in a straight line and sing mother Russia too?
Name two people who professed to be communist? This is another example of the kind of bullshit that we've let go for far too long. Spell it out Bob, who?
Eric
Sharon has made numerous complaints to the State and Federal FCC
http://sharon-e-dem.blogspot.com/2010_02_01_archive.html
The Reprisals are heinous.
You people fail to realize that DFL Michelle Fure has conflict's with her State Employment at MNCIS and her Volunteer Newsletter eith NonProfit.
PDF] MINNESOTA BUREAU OF CRIMINAL APPREHENSIONFile Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
Michelle Fure. Information Officer. 651-793-2726 michelle.fure@state.mn.us. Patty Hunter. Project Manager. 651-793-2565 patty.hunter@state.mn.us. Tom Miller ...
www.crimnet.state.mn.us/docs/resources1008.pdf
Name two people who professed to be communist? This is another example of the kind of bullshit that we've let go for far too long. Spell it out Bob, who?
Eric
My response;
Eric, Eric, Eric, your memory fails you.
One here intials G.B.
Every bit of what I said about the libary is true. Jeeesh it made the local news Eric! I will search for the topic I posted on this subject.
Eric, you need to brush up on your reading skills.
The complaint is E Democracy does not follow their own charter. They are phonies who do their best to ostracize voices of conservatives, PERIOD! That my friend is a fact nobody can hide.
Eric I never ever LIE!
From the topic
"Mayor Coleman PARTNERS WITH SUSPECTED COMMUNIST FORUM."
Bob said...
The COMMIES are posting at Saint Paul Issues and Forums.
From: Michael Wood Date: Mar 20 18:10 UTC Short link
I warmly point out that the Gus Hall Action Club, a Marxist-Leninist Communist
club, attended the St. Paul Mayor Chris Coleman’s Town Hall Meeting, Tuesday,
March 19 at the Wellstone Center for Community Building in St. Paul,
MN...carrying Communist signs that featured the cover of Gus Hall’s "Working
Class USA" and the slogan: "Ford Plant: Public Ownership is the Answer" along
with our club’s name and logo. I, wearing a winter cap with a Soviet red star
pin with a red flag, carried a "super communist" sign with a picture of Marx,
Engels and Lenin and the words: "Public Ownership is the Answer! Save Union
Jobs! People Before Profits!"
We sat in the front row with our signs raised throughout the Town Hall meeting.
Mayor Coleman, recieving questions and comments from the crowd, called on me to
speak. I, identifying myself as a member of the Gus Hall Action Club, requested
that Mayor Coleman act in his capacity as St. Paul Mayor to fight for the
nationalization of the St. Paul Ford Plant as a means of guaranteeing job
security and preventing the closure of the plant next year. I respectfully
criticized the Mayor and the St. Paul Ford Site Planning Task Force’s plans for
a mixed-use development of the Ford Site--a solution which would not save the
plant and, as I said at the meeting, "would occur on the ruins of a closed
plant." And I pointed out that my reading of the city’s plans did not lead me
to believe that the promised "job creation" after the closure of the Ford Plant
would be union jobs.
I stressed that the closure of the St. Paul Ford Twin Cities Assembly Plant is
not a "done deal"--if there is action to nationalize the plant and continue
it’s operations under public ownership. I warmly pointed out that tax-payer’s
money had been used to finance production at the St. Paul Ford Plant for many
years and said: "What tax-payers finance, tax-payers should own."
It became apparent that St. Paul Mayor Coleman did not anticipate my questions,
as he flushed visibly and moved uncomfortably at several points during my
speech. Chris Coleman, in his response to me, articulated that it was a tradegy
that the Ford Plant was closing...but did not deal with the question of
nationalization as a means of saving the plant and guaranteeing job security. I
spoke again, requesting to know what the Mayor thought of the concept of
nationalization of the Ford Plant. His response claimed that he lacked
information.
I warmly, in an effort to provide more information to Mr. Chris Coleman and the
members of this group before I call on Mayor Coleman to act in his capacity as
Mayor, share words by the great Communist Gus Hall which can apply to the
situation of the St. Paul Ford Twin Cities Assembly Plant:
Gus Hall spoke of plant closings and said: "The threat to the jobs of workers,
to the cities and city services--the threat to the public welfare--deserves not
only sympathy, but immediate action. This is our one and only serious concern,
because it is the most important and vital of all human concerns. In fact,
nothing else really matters. Nothing else takes priority over people’s needs
and welfare...
"There is nothing wrong or illegal in the government taking over these plants
because there is one sacred and inalienable human right that supersedes all
others. And that is the right of the people to make a living--to be able to
eat, pay rent, raise and educate their children. (This is a)...solution to the
crisis of plant closings." (Gus Hall, "The Working Class Answer to the
Deepening Crisis, " 1979)
I warmly point out that I call on Mayor Coleman to convene an emergency
moratorium on the closure of the St. Paul Ford Plant. The necessity of public
ownership and the nationalization of the St. Paul Ford Plant as a means to
guarantee job security and prevent the plant closure must not be taken off the
table. The Mayor could draft emergency "plant-job saving legislation" or other
creative ways to prevent the closure of the plant and the loss of union jobs.
The slogans on our Communist signs say it all: "Ford Plant: Public Ownership is
the Answer! Save Union Jobs! People Before Profits!"
11:38 PM
"Mayor Coleman PARTNERS WITH SUSPECTED COMMUNIST FORUM."
Eric, what does crow taste like? lol
You stated:"all kinds of commies showed up from the SPIF forum professing their communist party affiliation."
Your own 'evidence' shows that this group was not from SPIF- as you stated.
They saw a political leader scheduled to be someplace public and got their supporters together and showed up.Just like the tea partiers who stormed Betty McCollum's office were not from the DFL. Or the people who showed up at the demo of Nancy's house were not from the city.
Usually people who are on your side do not have to carry signs of protest and demands.
Eric
Your reading comprehension still needs some work Eric.
I copied a post from SPIF by Micheal Woods. G.B. and Woods are members of SPIF and the communist party. There is others!
I've never seen those guys on SPIF.
The complaints on SPIF with Dobson and Krenik has to do with the way they are moderated. They gave examples and the moderator explained why those topics were not germane to the local focus of SPIF. They disagreed. That's it.
When you sign up for SPIF you agree to use your real and follow the rules. You also agree that the moderator is the enforcer of the rules. Its always good and fine until you're the one that falls to those rules. I can't count the times I've been warned, moderated and suspended from SPIF for ignoring the rules and/or veering off-topic.
Most posters are Democrats or lean Democrats on SPIF and you complain about that. Why do you think that is? I'm sure you have an elaborate conspiracy of why. I think its a true reflection of the city politics. Every single office is held by a Democrat. They weren't appointed or snuck in, they were voted in by the citizens. So, a public forum that discusses city issues logically is going to have an overwhelming number of Democratic voices. Your viewpoint, the republican viewpoint loses out at the polls every year in St Paul.
Eric
I seem to remember a post with a spif member with communist markings on his house.
I seem to remember a post with a spif member with communist markings on his house.
No you don't. Proof please.
Eric
I seem to remember a post with a spif member with communist markings on his house.
No you don't. Proof please.
Eric
My response;
Eric please read my post at 11:09.
G.B. a member of SPIF painted a big red star on his house.
1 - Are you sure he is a member?
2 - He isn't a part of management if he is a member.
3 - you got the picture at first because some idiot though it was a house Thune owned.
4 - even if he is a member, so what? You were a member, Swift was a member, Burg was a member... doesn't mean that the organization is Facist either....
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Here is the photo you requested Eric.
G.B. is a member Chuck. lol
Thank you Bob
Chuck said;
3 - you got the picture at first because some idiot though it was a house Thune owned.
My response;
Not true Chuck. If I'm not mistaken the photo came about over an investigation into campaign finance reports.
E Democracy board members, moderators and SOME members earned the reputation that follows that forum.
Not true Chuck. If I'm not mistaken the photo came about over an investigation into campaign finance reports.
Bob, you're wrong again. The title from this photo on your blog states:
"Proof Communist Support Councilman Dave Thune"
The only thing this photo states is that this person believes like a MAJORITY of Americans do now, the war is wrong. He is an anti-war activist it seems.
Which takes us back to the RED STAR on his house. Its a symbol of anarchists. Anarchists are not Democrats.
And lastly, who is GB and how do you know that;
a. this is his home and;
b. he is a member of SPIF.
As a member of SPIF you can sign in and pull up the membership. The only person with GB as his initials sells real estate and admits to being a Republican now.
Can you help us out and draw the connections? His group showed up at a public open house/forum to discuss city issues with the mayor that was hosted around the city by SPIF and you conclude that he must be a member of SPIF?
Your case is falling apart the more we look into this.
Eric
Going through the membership list I noticed that there are over 700 members and they do come from all political scales. Lots more republicans who I wasn't aware of that are members.
Three people whining about the rules. Less than one half of one percent of the membership.
SPIF is doing just fine. Your constant need to re-post topics over here is proof enough that its the only forum where real issues about St Paul can be discussed by real people. Its the only place where the decision makers interact with the citizens.
You won't get there with this set-up Bob. This is one step above the Pioneer Press comment section.
Eric
LIE? About what? And take a breath, you're foaming at the mouth Bob.
There is no policy on silencing people. You can't comprehend that there is a big difference between a well thought out opinion and some bs you pulled out of your butt.
If you want to a discussion or debate on issues, SPIF is the place, if you want to through conspiracy theories around and speculate on motives and take a crap on everything government, ADemocracy is the place for you. The few people that bother coming here will readily agree with you.
You sound jealous that they have figured it out. Membership, worldwide forums, funding. And you could even get the guys you support- landlords, to toss you a few bucks to expand or improve on this blog. You backed the wrong pony Bob.
There is little truth on this blog Bob. Lots of innuendo, insults and speculating but, very little truth.
Eric
There is little truth on this blog Bob. Lots of innuendo, insults and speculating but, very little truth.
Eric
My response;
I won't waste much time on your comments Eric.
If you are new here. This blog has a reputation of exposing government corruption. Numerous federal depositions have been posted here. Numerous citizens have given testimony of government corruption here. This is what Eric calls "very little truth".
I will add government employees depositions and statements support the facts Eric calls little truth.
3 federal judges say there is merit to the truths told here.
This blog has gained a reputation for exposing the truth!
Bob said:
As far as this blog not measuring up to E Democracy as you claim.
There is no comparison. This town hall has gained a reputation of exposing government corruption. Exposing government corruption is not on E Democracy's agenda.
Really? What exactly has panned through over here in more than four years? This was about RICO that turned out to be nothing.
So as we stand today, your blog has exposed nothing except the slumlords who think they have a right to run their business in St Paul.
You've got no corruption, just accusations which you can get anywhere on anything from aliens killing JFK to America and Israel blowing up the twin towers. Your accusations on here fit right in with those conspiracies.
Next on A-Democracy we'll learn how the Stonecutters rig the Grammy Awards.
Eric
I just took the time to read through the PDF that Bob provided, and have come to a different conclusion than I had formed earlier about the Saint Paul Issues Forum.
See, I had taken it for granted that SPIF was nothing more than another leftist echo chamber; but that is not the case.
It now appears that SPIF is in the business of gathering up grant money to publish leftist propaganda.
Marty Ownings brings up a couple of very interesting points. As a non-profit, SPIF has to have filed articles of incorporation with the state.
They also are required to hold a yearly "meeting of the board" to share all of the monetary transactions and organizational changes that transpired during the previous year with the membership. They are also supposed to have elections for officers.
Those meetings must be open to all members of the organization.
It appears that none of this has been happening. According the the commentary, Steven Clift has been collecting hundreds of thousands of dollars, but has completely ignored the law.
I'm not leveling an accusation of law breaking, but I smell a rat.
If Marty is monitoring this thread, I encourage him to contact the Secretary of State and request an investigation.
It seems clear you're not going to get any answers from Clift et. al.
Eric said;
Really? What exactly has panned through over here in more than four years? This was about RICO that turned out to be nothing.
My response;
You forget the countless stories from citizens of all walks of life Eric? Many stories that had nothing to do with lawsuits against the city of Saint Paul.
The fair housing lawsuits are on their way to a federal jury and the city is on the hot seat for millions.
And guess what, out of the darkness and into the light, E Democracy!
Remember that crappy development company on the east side using kids to remove asbestos from homes without any protective equipment?
I remember the email I read between Bob Spaulding and Grace Kelly.(Bob & Grace were board members at SPIF)
Bob claimed this crappy development company was a respected institution and they had to in so many words silence me.
And you say nothing has ever panned out here.
How bout this-->
Michael's Bar 1179 E. 7th. St. "Is there a different set of standards for someone who is affiliated with the city"? You decide!
I could post links to BULLSHIT from your friends all night Eric.
OH YEAH, this blog has a reputation alright. A reputation of confronting BULLSHIT where ever it falls.
Swiftee said;
It now appears that SPIF is in the business of gathering up grant money to publish leftist propaganda.
Marty Ownings brings up a couple of very interesting points. As a non-profit, SPIF has to have filed articles of incorporation with the state.
They also are required to hold a yearly "meeting of the board" to share all of the monetary transactions and organizational changes that transpired during the previous year with the membership. They are also supposed to have elections for officers.
Those meetings must be open to all members of the organization.
It appears that none of this has been happening. According the the commentary, Steven Clift has been collecting hundreds of thousands of dollars, but has completely ignored the law.
My response;
Sharon Anderson and I have been saying this for years, right here at the town hall.
It is my responsibility to link this topic to the Secretary of State. I suspect Dann, Marty and John may have already done so.
Eric said, well shut my mouth!!!!
G.B. use to be a member of SPIF.
Thank you Marty, Dann and John!
former member of SPIF
You know, it is what you guys don't understand about the world that convinces you that you have found vast conspiracies.
First as to the requirement of non-profits to have annual meetings of the their members... they determine who their members are. So, I don't know who they declare as their members, but I would guess it is their appointed board, NOT the people who sign up and belong to the forum. So, though I may be a "member" of the issues forum, I am not a member of the SPIF board and wouldn't be invited to an annual meeting where elections are held.
This is true for almost all non-profits. The board is the membership, the board, acting as the membership elects the next board at their annual meeting that could occur at a dinner table.
Groups like the local district councils that invite the general public to be a part of their elections, is very, very rare.
Most non-profits, charities, hospitals, social service organizations etc... have very small voting "members" even if millions of people contribute to the organization.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
You know, it is what you guys don't understand about the world that convinces you that you have found vast conspiracies.
Truer words never spoken on here. This is the entire reason this blog exist.
Eric
Repke you are full of it!
OK 12:00 AM - how many families are members of the Scouting... Boy, Girl, Cub, Explorer... they are a large non-profit? ... and I am guessing that their entire "membership" for purposes of holding an annual meeting is less than 100 people.
Most foundations with multi-million dollar assets have "memberships" of a couple dozen people or less.
Red Cross, Salvation Army, Wilder Foundation.... see if you can become a member and go to their annual meeting.
The "members" of non-profits are like the preferred stock holders of for-profits they are the ones who can participate in annual meetings etc..
Few non-profits are open enough to allow anyone who wants to be a participating member. Now, SPIF may have been "fuzzy-headed, liberal" enough to do that. But, any non-profit that is run like a business, which is most would not.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Chuck, did you even read the 187 pages? I don't think so. Dann Dobson sits on the board of 3 non profits. Dann use to be an attorney. Dann has concerns over the way E-Democracy does business and so does a hell of a lot of other people who never post here.
I sent a link of the pdf and this thread to the Secretary of State. We will have to wait and see what the Secretary of State determines.
There certainly is grounds for an investigation.
If you belong to a church, you are a member. However, unless you're on the church board/council, you don't decided to renew the pastor's contract, set the rules for membership, appropriate funds, etc.
Its nice to know about everything that may be going on with E-Dem but, in reality only the AG and the funders have to be satisfied that everything is on the up and up.
I'd like to know what the structure is around here and who was funding this effort a couple of years ago and who all of these (five at the most) anonymous posters are. I won't sue to get that information, I'll just point out that its the blog owner's prerogative not to share that info. Why Dobson and gang think they have right to all of E-Dem's information is beyond understanding.
Eric
Chuck said;
You know, it is what you guys don't understand about the world that convinces you that you have found vast conspiracies.
My response;
What a crock of shit! Chuck you and Eric know damn well SPIF shows favoritism to you leftest. That is against their charter.
Example- I got suspened for an entire year with NO prior written warnings. The board of SPIF couldn't even site a rule I violated. Eric who was invovled with the incident that got me suspended got a 2 week suspension and he threatened bodily harm to me.
Then Eric didn't even have the GUTS to meet with me, Tim Erickson, and Grace Kelly at Divas.
Double standard is the norm with you inside DFLers. I have shown countless examples of a double standard here for years.
I reveal in the glory knowing you folks are really a bunch of gutless cowards hiding in the darkness with your deceit.
ERIC, I have received money from citizens of all walks of life. Property investors donations are meniscal compared to what average Joe's have given to this forum.
I haven't hide this fact from anyone. I have used every dime of the money to build participation here. In fact, I am the biggest donor to this forum. NOBODY has spent more money or spent more time on getting the word out than I have.
Bob,
Go to e-democracy and pull up their articles of incorporation. This is what was APPROVED by the Fed's to make them a non-profit. Under - Article IV Membership, you will see:
"The corporation shall have no voting members. The corporation shall have a Board of Directors, who shall manage the affairs of the corporation as defined by statute, this Article, and the corporation's bylaws."
Like I said the appointed board of directors are the members and the members are the board of directors.
Being a member for the purpose of participating on one of the forums is meaningless, it does not make you a member of the organization. Only the board fulfills that roll.
I have known Dann for years, we are friends, he did an excellent job on our case against Fairytale Vote, we got the biggest fine levied by the state on an unfair campaign practice... but it doesn't change the by-laws of e-democracy.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Thanks Eric, I will contact the Attorney General too.
Thank you for your opinion Chuck. Although, you have stated in the past changes should be made over at E Democracy.
You can't honestly say that organization is fair to all. You can't honestly say that E Democracy is diverse.
Bob,
My point was that you and Swifty and whoever else jumped on board said that they were violating the law by not having an annual meeting of their members. But, if you just look a little deeper you would see that they don't have any members other than the board of directors.
So, they can't be violating the law. But, you have found another liberal conspiracy to rant about, without any facts.
E-dem just booted Dann, someone that you posted a story about a few months ago painting him as a crazed liberal and then you say that SPIF has a double standard and treats liberals better.
I posted the warning I got that caused me to quit MN-issues... I mean, Fuck-em if they won't let me call ignorant, arrogant, Republican talking heads; ignorant, arrogant Republican talking heads... I mean clearly they don't want the truth, they are just out there protecting the Right wing!!!
Get it?
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Hey Bob, tell the SecState and AG I said hello. They're good people.
Just to end this back and forth, lets say someone listens to this complaint.
Bob, spell out the problem and explain how its a public issue that violates the law.
Can you do that? If not, you got the same complaint as I do about this blog. You are not following your mission statement. Truth seeking mission my ass, more like a fishing expedition. But, so what. What law do you break for exaggerating or lying about the real real reason you've formed this blog? None.
Oh, how about a list of names of your funders? Like they got from E-Dem. I want to match those names with the plaintiffs as well as run them through the political database to see where else they've given money. Its a well known fact that this blog is a propaganda tool for Republicans who don't want their words questioned.
Eric
Bob, stop deleting my posts. Let's tell the whole story.
Eric
What a crock of shit! Chuck you and Eric know damn well SPIF shows favoritism to you leftest. That is against their charter.
Wrong. The favoritism you envision is based on what you write. You can't come there with the kind of bullshit that passed for information here. You are forced to sign your real name and the other posters challenge each other on statements. They made you look like Bill Dahn trying to explain the bonding process, so you really got pissed.
Example- I got suspened for an entire year with NO prior written warnings. The board of SPIF couldn't even site a rule I violated. Eric who was invovled with the incident that got me suspended got a 2 week suspension and he threatened bodily harm to me.
That's the A Democracy version. Then there is the truth. The discussion was about Diva's. I gave testimony that when it was ran by Vanelli's there weren't any problems. Deb took over and it went to hell with problems. You, Bob Johnson, responded, "I know Erik, Here is how Deb can keep the ni@@%3s out. Play country music."
Needless to say it went out of control from there. I told Bob if he said that in person to me, he'd regret it for a long time.
I can repost it if you like Bob. Bottom line is, my threat was based on his actual offense, and it was used in future tense.
Then Eric didn't even have the GUTS to meet with me, Tim Erickson, and Grace Kelly at Divas.
I don't remember if I was invited but to say I didn't have the guts- get real. After your statement, I didn't feel any need to meet with you. I said what i had to say- you ever used that term in my presence, it won't be good for you. What in the hell would I have to meet with you about? Again, calling me gutless is far from the truth and you even know that.
Double standard is the norm with you inside DFLers. I have shown countless examples of a double standard here for years.
What's an outside DFLer?
I reveal in the glory knowing you folks are really a bunch of gutless cowards hiding in the darkness with your deceit.
Exactly what do I have to fear from you Bob? You're old, not connected, not the brightest bulb, and short. I'm none of those things. As a matter of fact, I have more to lose tangling with you that you to have lose. And for what? To show that I can pund my chest harder than old Bob? No thanks.
(I do stop in Vogels and Governors for a drink once in a while if you're wondering where you can find me. Just sayin')
Eric
Anonymous said... You know, it is what you guys don't understand about the world that convinces you that you have found vast conspiracies.
Truer words never spoken on here. This is the entire reason this blog exist..
Eric 10:48 PM
Eric
What is your version of a
"conspiracy"?
Bill Dahn
Eric I am not deleting your post. I will check the spam box. One way you can avoid the spam box is to use the name/url. Just type your name in the box. You don't need to put anything in the url if you don't want to.
Chuck, I am not sure if they are violating the law. I will let the authorities make that determination.
But, it is more than clear there is hypocrisy at E Democracy.
Just a couple of weeks ago Rick Mons the moderator of SPIF violated the rules of the MN politics board of E Democracy and personally attack another member. WHY, because he can!
I'm sure after the property rights debates 4 years ago, liberal members of SPIF have been warned for their behavior. And only because so much attention has been given to this issue over the last 4years.
The concept of E Democracy is great! Kudos to Clift and his dream. There is problems with his concept that he either fails to recognize or deliberately ignores.
The forums are politically charged! To be fair E Democracy boards should be representative of a diversity of political views.
Eric said;
Wrong. The favoritism you envision is based on what you write. You can't come there with the kind of bullshit that passed for information here. You are forced to sign your real name and the other posters challenge each other on statements. They made you look like Bill Dahn trying to explain the bonding process, so you really got pissed.
My response;
That is what you would like people to believe.
I wasn't the one calling other members of SPIF names and belittling them. That was how you, Chuck and other city hall defenders treated me. You acted like in mature children. I kept my cool as much as humanly possible under the circumstance so I wouldn't violate the rules so I could continue on with stories of corruption.
In fact after discussions here over the years you claim to side with Nancy Osterman of 14 E. Jessamine. It is hypocritical of you to say you believe in Nancy's story and ramble on the way you are about me concerning my participation at SPIF. Nancy's house at 14 Jessamine was one of my biggest issues at SPIF. Once again you show the kinds of hypocrisy that goes on there. Here you can't get away with that shit.
We also proved here Eric you are intimidating at district council meetings when you don't get your way.
Eric said in an email to me speaking of Divas bar;
Deb took over and it went to hell with problems. You, Bob Johnson, responded,
I said thinking Eric was an old racist white man;
Erik, Here is how Deb can keep the ni@@%3s out. Play country music."
The whole issue for me and others over Divas bar was, we felt the city and neighbors wanted the bar closed because of the black clientele that frequented the bar after 10:00 pm. We were defending Divas rights to serve whomever they chose to serve. Eric took my private email to SPIF took it out of context and posted it. A violation of SPIF rules.
Eric said;
I don't remember if I was invited but to say I didn't have the guts- get real. After your statement, I didn't feel any need to meet with you. I said what i had to say- you ever used that term in my presence, it won't be good for you. What in the hell would I have to meet with you about? Again, calling me gutless is far from the truth and you even know that.
My response;
You are a LIAR! I invited you! Grace invited you. And I am told Bob Parker invited you too. I wasn't suggesting I wanted to kick your ass. You didn't have the GUTS to face the truth!
Eric said;
(I do stop in Vogels and Governors for a drink once in a while if you're wondering where you can find me. Just sayin')
My response;
Eric quit trying to flex your manhood with me. You don't have anything to worry about, my mother taught me not to hit girls.
Eric said;
What's an outside DFLer?
My response;
The ignorant masses of people you count on to get your guys elected. ;)
Well here we are again Bob. And, my pants aren't on fire. Would you like a bucket of water for yours?
Eric
If e-dem isn't violating their charter, the next tactic would be to contact their financial donors.
Someone noted that SPIF claims to have XXX members, but only X ever actually participate. Clift would most certianly be telling potential donors the former, but probably not the latter.
It would also be beneficial to inform donors that e-dem is completely composed of a few leftist pin-heads; it's nothing more than another echo chamber that is of no use to anyone.
Why would the Ford foundation waste $150k on dead air again?
From what I can tell, it looks like e-dem is in the business of providing Steven Clift a salary, and nothing more.
Finally...
I have known Dann for years, we are friends
Of course you are Chuck; you're the Chairman of the Circle Jerk Committee of the Dim-Witted Scumbag Club....Dobson's the best pivot man in the biz!
Eric, I know you're not even smart enough to know when you've been made a fool of, so allow me to clue you in; you have been made a fool of.
You conservatives. You believe in freedom and free market principles except when you don't.
E-Democracy is a bunch of listserves thought up and created by Clift almost 20 years ago in his Uptown apartment. Its his. He owns it. No one is required to be a member and participate. But, when you do, there are rules you must follow or, you can lose the privilege of participation.
You are free to go and start your own listserve and compete with SPIF or all of E-Democracy. You are not free to dictate to someone how their business should be ran.
Swiftee, you are smart enough to realize when you're being a hypocrite, so at least admit to us that your Stalin-like tactics are just a joke.
Eric
Eric, one thing you can count on here, you will never ever be ostracized.
You can threaten to kick my ass, call me names and belittle me, and still you will never have to fear retribution of any kind. Folk's in the know cannot say that about E Democracy.
Folk's Dann Dobson was banished from E Democracy. Now the board over there is working on getting rid of John. Next they will work on getting rid of Marty.
As I said previously Dann, you are welcome here anytime. In fact you would be a great asset to this town hall.
I know you turds over at E Democracy are reading this thread. I want to make it perfectly clear Dann, John and Marty did not provide me with any of this information from the shadows of SPIF's feedback forum.
More from the feedback forum of SPIF
From: John Krenik
Date: Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 7:24 PM
Subject: Re: [SPIF-Feedback] From the Forum Manager
To: stpaul-feedback@forums.e-democracy.org, Rick Mons
Mr. Mons,
I find your nexus to veracity very poor at best.
I don't believe you when you say Mr. Dobson threatened you with a lawsuit. In fact I find most things you say to be very questionable and lacking foundation.
What I believe is you made this whole thing up to punish Mr. Dobson. In Mr. Dobson's numerous posts here he has NEVER hinted at bringing a lawsuit against democracy.
Do you have a recording of the call? Did he put this threat in writing, if so please scan it or forward the email for all to see.
What I really think is you made this whole thing up so you could stifle Mr. Dobson's questions of how this forum is run.
Mr. Mons put forward the evidence then. I seriously believe you are not an honest person, as my past experiences with you have shown how dishonorable you have handled issues on St. Paul Issues Forum.
I would like very much to hear Mr. Dobson's side of the story, publicly here on the feedback forum.
I call upon lifting Mr. Dobson's banishment from this feedback forum to hear his side of the story. Until that is done I don't believe you.
Sincerely,
John Krenik
St. Paul, Minnesota
From: Rick Mons
To: Steven Clift ; Anne Carroll ; Mick Souder
Cc: John Krenik
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 7:18 PM
Subject: Complaint from John Krenik; Complaint about John Krenik
Seems to me that the post authored by Krenik is making a complaint regarding my management of the SPIF and Feedback forums. Such complaints should, I believe, be received and evaluated by the e-Democracy board or its designees. While it's long on generalization and short on specifics, it will give John a chance to prove up his claims. So far he hasn't done so upon my past invitations where he's alleged bias and unequal treatment.
In turn, I believe that Krenik's post below is a violation of the rules under which the Feedback forum operates; however, I do not believe that I should take action since I'm the target of the post.
Under the rule regarding civility, posts shall not include "insults, name calling or inflamed speech. Personal one-on-one arguments, disagreements or personality conflicts are not appropriate on the public discussion forum" I submit that Krenik's post is a violation of that rule.
Moreover, the rules provide that "Forum Managers retain the right to participate in the forum under same rules as other participants." I submit that at some point Forum Managers have the right not to be subjected to the kind of vituperative posts that Krenik has made in the past and that culminates in this post.
I can tell you if a post such as this were made by a member about another member, I would issue a warning. However, I think the current climate simply does not permit me to take action -- nor would any forum manager be comfortable with taking action when they are the target of such an attack.
If you concur with my assessment and issue a formal warning to Krenik, please be advised that this would be Krenik's second formal warning within 12 months (the first formal warning was issued 4/11/2010 for violation of the "private stays private" rule). Thus, if a formal warning is issued, Krenik would be suspended from the forum for two weeks.
Regards,
Rick Mons, SPIF Forum Manager
From: Steven Clift Date: Jan 04 15:05 UTC
Share:
Link to this by copy/pasting the URL below into an email:
E-Democracy.org has concluded that our Policy on Legal Threats has
been violated by Dann Dobson as it relates to activity emanating from
this forum and the St. Paul Issues Feedback Forum.
A letter has been sent and a process laid out for any legal threats
against E-Democracy.org and its volunteers to be clearly lifted.
Based on advice from legal counsel and adopted into policy, under no
circumstances may someone threatening to take legal action against us
continue to participate across all of our forums. We are not allowed
to interact with them outside of formal written communication due to
the legal risks involved. We view our entire network of 30+ forums as
simply one filed lawsuit away (whether frivolous or legitimate) from
being potentially closed down due to the resources required to defend
our forums' freedom of assembly.
The full policy:
http://pages.e-democracy.org/Policy_concerning_legal_threats
I certainly hope that this matter is resolved promptly and that
extremely rare suspension posts like this are not required again for
sometime.
The reason I am notifying the full forum is that I wanted to remind
folks that posting messages on behalf of a suspended member will be a
violation of our full rules - http://e-democracy.org/rules :
"While under suspension, a member may not post in the forum from which
they have been suspended, nor may they ask others to forward their
comments to the forum. Members of good standing may not knowingly post
comments on behalf of suspended members."
I should note however, that at on your own initiative that posting a
link to local online content - like someone's blog, etc. - that is
clearly within the local issues scope of the forum is allowed. This
forum is now one among many online spaces about St. Paul. If you are
_uncertain_ as to that local scope when it comes to specific material
you wish to share, pleased check with your local Forum Manager Rick
Mons first.
Thanks,
Steven Clift
E-Democracy.org
My response;
I am told Dann made no threats. Although I think they have finally tangled with the wrong guy.
Go ahead Dann put them out of business or force them to follow their charter.
A policy against making legal threats is an illegal policy from a free speech point of view.
The right to redress of any contended violation of that free speech by E-Democracy or any other public forum is not unheard of since as an example, many notices of itent to file legal actions against defendants are published in the newspaper every day.
Jeff Matiatos
Wasn't Dan Dobson Nancy Ostrom lawyer for 14 E. Jessamine?
REPRISALS?
Eric, you harm me to my capitalist core.
I understand that e-dem is Clift's creation, and that he owns it...and I'm not contending that he shouldn't have the right to do what he pleases with his property.
My point is that he's advertising his product, e-dem, to financial donors as a non-partisan, open, community forum with many participants; it's none of that.
As a capitalist, I'm simply suggesting that someone might alert his donors to look out for the integrity of their investments.
Of course, I'm also highlighting Clift's mastery of leftist hypocrisy, but that's my job...I'm a helper; I help.
LMAO
For the first time ever, in all of these years Swifty I am laughing with you instead of at you... ....you're a helper...
I like it, I really like it.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Wow!!!My head is spinning.
Swiftee is calling for a boycott and a protest over how someone is running their business?!?!
I knew he was a damn hippie all this time. Admit it, Comfortably Numb from Dark Side of the Moon is one of your all time favorite songs to 'chill out' to.
Now that I know you're a member of the tribe, will we see you at the demonstration for Dolphin-free shrimp? Or, the Stop the Nukes protest? Or the Save Our Birkenstocks (SOB) benefit concert? I know your bike is more economical but I'll have the Volvo wagon for carpooling.
Welcome, and thank the mother earth you've decided to embrace your true self.
Peace and Love to you Tom "Bunny-Spirit" Swift.
Eric
Swiftee is calling for a boycott and a protest over how someone is running their business?!?!
Dood, watch my lips.
My objection is to his advertising, not his content. I don't do "boycotts" or protests; if Clift wants to make a living running another miserable moonbat echo chamber, I wish him joy.
But he shouldn't be telling people they're supporting a non-partisan, open, community forum.
Boil the bunny down, and I don't like liars, I guess. Prolly explains my dislike of liberals, too.
BTW, the only thing I ever had in common with hippies, is an eye for big-titted, hippy chicks!
Normally I don't read this "forum" but I've been told that my complaint about Krenik's post was made public here. This complaint was in a private e-mail sent to only four people ... including Krenik. It was not published on the feedback forum.
Yet Bob writes: "I want to make it perfectly clear Dann, John and Marty did not provide me with any of this information from the shadows of SPIF's feedback forum."
To use the vernacular that is favored by most habitues of this "forum" -- that's bullshit. The post clearly was provided by Krenik.
What's also interesting is Bob's selective use of quotes from e-Democracy. He's happy to publish the screed by Krenik and to hypothesize that Martin Owings will suffer some dire consequences.
Yet the same Martin Owings wrote:
"Mr Krenik you are mistaken in your assertions about Mr Mons. I can confirm that a legal threat was made to Mr Mons by Mr Dobson. Mr Mons is not lying, nor did he attempt to mislead the forum. Whether or not that threat was credible can be argued.
Unlike your experiences Mr Krenik I have found Mr Mons to be quite honorable and honest in my dealings with him, even when on the far opposite sides of the issues.
Although I find myself in the unlikely position of having to defend a stated adversary in this instance, I can say with confidence that I don't think your assessments of Mr Mons are accurate.
Interesting that you've chosen to publish Krenik's screed but ignore Martin's refutation. It simply reinforces my decision to ignore this "forum."
welcome back Rick!
landlord
Listen Rick, I said, --->
"I want to make it perfectly clear Dann, John and Marty did not provide me with any of this information from the -->shadows of SPIF's feedback forum<----."
The email was sent to me by **&%^ separately from the feedback forum information.
People see E Democracy for what it is Rick. They love the concept but despise the hipocrisy. And Rick it isn't just conservatives who feel this way. Libs like Chuck, Eric and Dann would like to see a bit more of an exercise in free speech at E Democracy. Chastised for calling the mayor a "cheerleader" for a project he cheers on is an exercise in applying duct tape to freedom of speech.
After all this time I still read the E Democracy forums. I love to see what they talk about in England. I have family there. And of coarse I love Saint Paul and E Democracy has all the insider views on current events in the city.
But if it concerns housing and a spirit for free speech this little town hall is where it is happening.
I didn't see Marty's email. But thank you for sharing that Rick. We are on a truth seeking mission here. I want nothing but the truth.
Obiviously Marty has a different opinion of you than John does. I suppose with Marty's polticaly correct nature he hasn't offended you as much as John's straight forward approach. I assume due to this John gets more attention from you.
I hope Dann sues your phony forum into submission and not oblivia. I'll even volunteer my services as a witness.
Hey you still violating the rules of the MN politics forum attacking other members personaly?
I was just wondering if anyone ever complained and did you moderate yourself since the incident?
Bob, you're being silly and asking for totalitarian efforts that you abhor.
Swiftee, who doesn't?
Something about this day got me agreeing with the likes of you twice. Time to call it a night.
Eric
What's also interesting is Bob's selective use of quotes from e-Democracy.
Yup, there it is; censorship, clear as day.
Sucks to be on the receiving end, doesn't it moonbat?
E-democracy is just a part of the leadership trust in St. Paul, which is a disgrace.
What happened to caring and responsible people in positions of responsibility?
Checking in over at the feedback forum I see Eric's pheromones were activated and he buzzed off from here to the hive stinging John Krenik and Sheldon.
Caty Royce is acting like a school yard teacher holding Eric in one hand and Sheldon in another keeping them at arms length from verbally bashing each others head in.
From: cathleen royce
> To: stpaul-feedback@forums.e-democracy.org
> Sent: Thu, January 6, 2011 6:53:03 AM
> Subject: Re: SPIF-Feedback From the Forum Manager
>
> this exchange between Eric and Sheldon clarifies perfectly how much this
> conversation has degraded into the typical male pissing match; a one up
> extravaganza that is a much more effective strategy for pushing people off
> the list serve and killing "e democracy."
>
> I suggest that you change the name, using the word democracy connotes
> freedom of exchange and tolerance of persepctive and most importantly for
> this situation, active participation in the governing structure of the
> body. But really boys, enough is enough.
>
> caty royce, s mpls.
Are we having fun yet? :)
Folk's, I have an announcement.
Steve Clift shut down the feedback forum of SPIF.
The concerns that were being expressed by members at SPIF should have been taken seriously. Shutting down the feedback forum lends further credence to the accusations against E Democracy.
"Silence anything offensive even if it is the truth".
Facing the truth from members of SPIF, and the publication of the feedback forum discussion here may have weighed in on Clifts reasoning to shut down the feedback forum.
There is talk among folks to start another discussion group with a broader sense of free speech.
Yahoo boards was suggested. I left Yahoo boards because they are a free fall. I was threatened often with bodily harm, it get's that bad there. Libs out number conservatives by 1 to 10. There is little intellectual exchange. I don't know if we could even keep a yahoo board exclusive to Minnesota. I don't think we can even moderate a yahoo board.
I attempted to replace my blog with a group list server that had the capability of multiple boards. This thing was the cadillac of list servers. Cost me well over $1000 to have it designed and set up.
The list server wasn't appreciated much by folks who participate here. Regulars have grown accustomed to the layout and dynamics of this town hall and the list-server threaten to destroy what has worked here for years. Successful blogs generally have an interesting message or personality that drives its success.
I tried to donate the list server to the Highland district council and they didn't want it either. I think Clift knocked me out of the box.
My point is to get a secure forum like E Democracy there is cost. There is technical issue that come up and if you do not have a volunteer tech that is another expense. There is a monthly fee for the host server. It is a bit of a task to get something like E Democracy up and going.
All that being said, a list server is critical in getting large numbers of people to correspond with each other on multiple subjects.
I am wondering if Clift would set up another board with his server where free speech is less restrictive and the forum would be moderated by a panel of diverse political views.
Another update folks. I heard through the grape vine John Krenik was suspended for 2 weeks due to his criticism of Pol Pot. My bad, I meant Rick Mons.
From: Martin Owings Date: Jan 08 18:31 UTC
Share:
Link to this by copy/pasting the URL below into an email:
Fellow current and past members of SPIF,
Today Mr Clift, Executive Director at eDemocracy, announced that he is shutting
down the SPIF Feedback Forum.
This action represents a final attempt by Mr Clift to silence those who have
been critical of SPIF's/eDemocracy's rules, rules enforcement, undemocratic
structure, lack of transparency, suspension of members of a particular
political ideology or who those who have sought to have their grievances about
the forum heard.
Shutting down the forum effectively prevents its members from sharing these
concerns with their fellow members on the forum. Furthermore it heralds the
beginning of what I believe is a dark chapter in online civic engagement in the
St.Paul community and for eDemocracy in particular.
To that end I plead with all of you to spread the word about the action taken
today by Mr Clift.
In addition, it is my intent to petition the funders of eDemocracy, such as the
Ford Foundation and others. I do not believe that complaining directly to the
eDemocracy board will amount to any substantive actions on their part since
I've done that in the past without any result or response what so ever.
I would ask that each of you, as your conscious dictates, join me in that
petition and spread the word about what is taking place at eDemocracy. I would
also encourage you to boycott this site until it restores the feedback forum.
Although it is without question a very sad day for online civic discourse,
members of SPIF, Saint Paul and eDemocracy, I remain confident and hopeful that
the fight for transparency, inclusiveness, freedom of speech and the principles
of democracy will prevail in the end.
Please let me know if you have questions, ideas, suggestions or feedback which
you think might be constructive. I welcome your thoughts on this.
In the meantime please contact me directly for an alternative online location
where we plan to discuss this issue.
Sincerely,
Marty Owings
*** *** ****
From: K R Schiebel Date: Jan 08 17:45 UTC
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Link to this by copy/pasting the URL below into an email:
This is unfortunate. The Feedback forum was the one spot that was
missing on all other forums that allowed a public venue to air
grievances. What should hap[pen is ALL forums should have a sister
feedback forum, instead the one that exists is being closed.
I am not concerned about a warning for violating the rule, I will be
leaving SPIF and all other edemocracy forums I subscribed to..
It's been an interesting ride, but now that it is clear the powers
that be want to create an echo chamber without allowing for diverse
opinions there is no longer a need to participate.
Thanks to Rick and Steve for you hard work and commitment
Flash
signing off
From: Brian Ashley Date: Jan 08 22:22 UTC
That's eUNdemocracy for you. Democracy and free speech were only to be desired
when the majority of people agreed with the forum managers.
Sad. Very sad.
From: Michele St. Martin Date: Jan 08 22:29 UTC
I have been supportive of Rick and Steve Clift, but I must say that
shutting down the Feedback Forum really adds fuel to the fire started by
those who have had some issues with SPIF recently. I really am stunned
by this heavy handed way of ending debate.
Michele St. Martin
Como Park
From: Joseph Krenik Date: 02:37 Yes, I am also very concerned as to what is happening on SPIF. I don't want to
get into the mess my father has gotten himself into for complaining about
issues on SPIF and the forum manager Rick Mons and his posting on the feedback
forum that got him suspended (He was suspended from the SPIF for asking simple
questions and asking for a more inclusive forum). For that he was suspended
from this forum for two weeks. As a student, I find what has happening on SPIF
rather shocking and concerning when the forum is called edemocracy and they are
receiving funding from the Ford Foundation.
Democracy is just that, democracy. Censorship is taking away a platform for
the discussion of issues concerning this forum and the quieting of one's voice
is similar to North Korea or China. If I remember correctly America isn't
either of those two countries.
Lots of students are watching what has transpired on St. Paul Issues Forum
recently. The message has been sent loud and clear message, complain and you
will be suspended.
Yes, I am very disappointed in the St. Paul Issues Forum
Joe Krenik
St. Paul, MN
Maybe this will be the start of a new era of openness in St. Paul. Such a breath of fresh air is long overdue.
But you had better believe there are some uptight individuals that would be violently opposed to it.
Bobby Start a new Thread : Rick Mons will be the demise of EvilE_Dem
Whoops Really Busy, Evil E-Dem and Rick Mons are running scared.
http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/stpaul-issues/messages/topic/49zX1GO2Y7BTWD82eQlUwL
(Steve sent this out today)
Greetings:
As E-Democracy.org’s Executive Director, I am writing to inform all
participants in the St. Paul Issues Forum that the St. Paul Feedback
Forum is now closed.
The Feedback Forum was created in the early years of the St. Paul
Issues Forum (SPIF). At that time, SPIF participants and the Forum
Manager were working hard to define the content and tone of the Forum,
learn how to live within and enforce E-Democracy.org Forum rules, and
generally mature into a robust forum. During those years, the local
steering committee was granted an exception to the overall
E-Democracy.org rules to create the Feedback Forum so SPIF
participants and leadership had a place to examine issues, work
through the charter experience and implications, and try out different
ideas.
As SPIF matured, participants no longer saw value in a separate local
leadership structure. The steering committee (a requirement of a
chartered Forum) ceased to function in May 2008 and the charter was
officially taken off E-Democracy’s books in 2010. With the end of the
local organizational structure, the Feedback Forum no longer had any
connection to decision-making in either SPIF or E-Democracy.org.
However, the forum was kept online as a place for informal
conversations among people to exchange opinions about SPIF.
Three major changes occurred in the last several months that caused
E-Democracy.org to reconsider maintaining the Feedback Forum:
1) Too many posts on the Feedback Forum have blatantly violated
multiple E-Democracy.org rules, including personal attacks and insults
representing a fundamental loss of civility. Legal threats emanating
from personalized exchanges on forum also concern us greatly. While
there are processes and procedures in place to address these, the time
required of the Forum Manager, Executive Director, and Board to manage
problems on this single forum is more than is required for all 30+
other forums around the world combined.
2) Good ideas, legitimate concerns, questions, or valuable input that
is offered on the Feedback Forum hits a dead-end; the Forum content is
not being monitored, tracked, or attended to by E-Democracy.org staff
or Board members.
3) E-Democracy.org recognized that we needed to improve mechanisms for
input by users and other interested people. In response to lots of
good ideas and input from participants on all our forums, we’ve
developed a number of new input and feedback mechanisms that are now
available to forum members around the world. There are more to come in
the form of both routine structures and special opportunities, and we
will inform all forum members as they are developed.
(Steve sent this out today) PART II
Specifically recent work includes:
1. An updated Contact Form: http://e-democracy.org/contact
With a new Questions and Feedback page including where to send
complaints about forum management:
http://pages.e-democracy.org/Questions
2. Each Forum home page now includes a link to the Questions and Feedback page
3. An updated About page: http://e-democracy.org/about
4. An updated Board page to include information on how Board members
are selected: http://pages.e-democracy.org/Board_members
5. An extensively updated About Issues Forums home page:
http://e-democracy.org/if
6. Some in-progress content from our Issues Forum Guidebook offering
advice for participants:
http://pages.e-democracy.org/Issues_Forums_for_participants
This is special work is supported by our Ford Foundation-funded
Inclusive Social Media effort to build neighbors forums in low income,
high immigrant communities - but the help guides will be useful for
all communities: http://e-democracy.org/inclusion
7. The Board Rules Committee is in the middle of a periodic rules
review/revision process. The first phase of this included an
invitation for proposed rules changes from all E-Democracy.org forum
participants. The second phase was to map those suggestions and others
onto the current rule structure, and we are now making revisions where
appropriate. The next phase is to seek feedback on the draft revisions
from Board members and forum participants. Stay tuned for more on that
within a month.
E-Democracy.org recognizes the need to be as responsive as possible to
individuals and communities where we have worked with people to build
our forums. However, the Feedback Forum has outlived its usefulness to
perform that function and become detrimental to our mission.
Thanks to all of you for being such an important part of the SPIF
community of over 700 participants – the second-largest of our forums
in the world, and growing weekly.
The Forum Manager, Board, and I welcome your insights and
contributions to this effort, and I encourage you to use the links
above to stay in touch. To offer comments on this decision e-mail
team@e-democracy.org or use our contact form:
http://e-democracy.org/contact
As a reminder, to keep our forums civil and focused as promised on
local public issues, do not discuss forum management on the St. Paul
Issues Forum as the rule that prohibits on forum comments about the
operation of the forum remains in effect.
Steven Clift,
Executive Director,
E-Democracy.org
What slime that Clift is.
It looks like he is taking host marbles and going home.
It sure is nice to express one's self here on A-Democracy where the forum host, Bob knows the meaning of the word democracy is.
PART 1 - A couple things to clear up.
eDemocracy is a noble idea, but it is currently plagued by shortsighted micro-management. Its relevance has diminished to the point where there are just 25 or so regular posters on SPIF.
I'm not a liberal democrat as Bob incorrectly labeled me. I've never belonged to the DFL or GOP party. I am a guy interested in truth and fairness regardless of ideology.
I fought for the reinstatement of self-indentified conservatives like Mitch Berg, John Krenik, Tom Swift and others on SPIF because, regardless of what Mr Clift (eDemocracy's Executive Director) claims there was a systematic attempt to purge the site of any opposing ideology or dissent.
I fought equally hard when they tried to do the same to free speech advocates like Jan Carr, Dann Dobson and others.
Here is a rundown of what really happened.
For the past four years a few of us have raised concerns about the heavy handed enforcement of the civility and off-topic rules. This all culminated recently with the following:
Stay tuned for Part 2
Marty Owings
612.599.3030
Part 2 -
1. Mr Clift (eDemocracy's Exec Director) refused a relatively small information request that would have helped answer the question about how effective their civility and off-topic rules enforcement was. He stated it would create too much burden for himself and his volunteers.
2. Mr Clift refused to reinstate the SPIF Board which was dissolved about 2 years ago. The board would have given much needed oversight to Moderation and provided an avenue for membership appeals.
3. Mr Clift refused a transparent rules review process, saying that he and a group of others would decide what suggested rules changes had merit and which didn't.
4. In every single case Mr Clift refused to reinstate SPIF members who had been suspended even if those suspensions were challenged or a result of conflicts with the Moderator. I don't know of a single case where the member's appeal was upheld.
5. Mr Clift refused to provide demographic data on the membership which might have shed light on the lack of diversity on SPIF.
6. Mr Clift refused to meet with SPIF members in a timely manner (he said he'd meet, but would never agree to a specific time) who had raised concerns about the lack of accountability, transparency and due process.
7. Mr Clift refused to follow the letter or spirit of the organizations own charter, which he helped develop. When confronted on this Mr Clift says that he's trying to protect and grow eDemocracy.
8. Finally Mr Clift unilaterally shut down the Feedback Forum, the only place where members could voice disagreement with the rules or processes on SPIF or eDemocracy.
That last move was a clear message that Mr Clift intends to silence the critics once and for all.
As my conscious dictated I protested Mr Clift's actions and called on others to do the same.
Some have argued that I shouldn't even bother with eDemocracy, that they're technology platform is obsolete and that they have no real relevance any more.
It was never about those things for me. It was about fundamental fairness, free speech, due-process and treating its members like adults rather than children on Mr Clift's personal playground.
I'm proud to be acquainted and friendly with a good number of you on this forum. Your political ideologies matter little to me when compared to the people you are.
We need a vigorous debate. We need our differences because it makes us all better in the end.
I hope you'll join me in speaking out where ever you see those ideas and principles being extinguished. Without the light of debate we all live in a darker world.
Part 3
Some have argued that I shouldn't even bother with eDemocracy, that they're technology platform is obsolete and that they have no real relevance any more.
It was never about those things for me. It was about fundamental fairness, free speech, due-process and treating its members like adults rather than children on Mr Clift's personal playground.
I'm proud to be acquainted and friendly with a good number of you on this forum. Your political ideologies matter little to me when compared to the people you are.
We need a vigorous debate. We need our differences because it makes us all better in the end.
I hope you'll join me in speaking out where ever you see those ideas and principles being extinguished. Without the light of debate we all live in a darker world.
Marty Owings
612.599.3030
Bob,
You are doing an important service by your efforts to stay with this story.
Thank you Marty! I have no clue why I thought you were a liberal. My bad, sorry!
We are on a truth seeking mission here. Thank you for bringing support to the model.
Lot's of people claim to be "centerist", but I can verify that Marty is, possibly, the only real "middle of the road" guy I know.
If there are any more out there, they're lucky to have Marty to count as one of their own.
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