Saint Paul/ Fair Housing Lawsuit Update
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posted by Bob at Saturday, September 13, 2008
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Saturday, September 13, 2008
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19 Comments:
Hi All,
I didn't attend the federal lawsuit hearing on the summary judgement yesterday. I had personal business matters to tend to.
I am told things didn't appear to go well for the plaintiffs. This court and any court in the land can rule against these plaintiffs and that doesn't change a thing concerning all the irresponsible actions committed by this city over housing issues.
Public opinion is the ANSWER. Less than 12% of illegible voters vote. If more citizens knew of all the callous wrong doing by this city's past and present leadership, voters who normally wouldn't take an interest in voting would come out in large numbers and vote.
Landlords are really a very small part of this issue. The focus should be on Saint Paul city residents like Betty Speaker and all the other senior citizens who have lost a home to this bunch of hooligans.
Fact, most landlords are as bad as the city when it comes to concerns about civil rights violations of renters. After all, most of them are OK with government inspections into their renters homes as long as the government officials aren't going through their homes. Isn't this the attitude of most folks to only be concerned when and if it effects them.
As a renter I don't want government representatives in my home PEROID. It is an invasion of my privacy!
The "fourth amendment" is the answer to ending code inspections at rental properties! There is MAYBE 1 in a thousand citizens who would even consider having the Gestapo in their home. I say Gestapo because these government folks going through renters homes is an invasion of privacy. It is a commy attitude. Also, the inspectors are trained to look for more than housing safety issues. Their inspections amount to an illegal search.
My offer still stands, is their a landlord out there with any guts, who will rent me an apartment so I can deny access to code enforcement? THEY WILL HAVE TO KICK MY ASS TO GET IN, EVEN WITH AN ADMINSTRATIVE WARRANT because their administrative warrant amounts to a pile of dung in light of my fourth amendment rights. I WILL "FIGHT" FOR MY RIGHTS! And when they deny you a "c of o" because I wouldn't allow them in, that will make you a party to my suit against them.
Should a landlord with any balls come forward and take me up on my offer I will confer with "Pacific Legal Foundation" on this issue for representation.It won't cost us a dime!
It takes money to inform the public of the issues and I know most of you live in the burbs and really don't care about politics in Saint Paul. Someday! Somebody! who really cares, will give me the money to publish my news letter introducing folks to this forum, then we will make changes. Until then I will be right here pushing on, slowing gaining more participation in A Democracy.
I was at the hearing and I got a different take on it. The city attorney started out complaining that she didn’t understand anything and briefly went into the racketeering stuff and how the other side didn’t have any evidence of racketeering. The judge told the city to sit down and she would have the other side up to explain some of the things the city didn’t understand. The other side did explain and in detail about the racketeering stuff. They went through all of the different elements of bank fraud, wire fraud, conspiracy, etc. and showed the judge how these things had been accomplished. They also talked about how the city had been converted to a racketeering enterprise by the individuals working for the city. The case then moved on to subjects regarding discrimination, disparate impact, the city having a higher code standard for privately owned homes verses the city’s PHA homes. While the city had denied this, the other side showed city documents regarding some study they had done that verified it was true. There were also discussions about equal protection violations regarding how the city applied the code to one group verses another and again the landlords attorney seemed to win the day. It was very obvious that the judge knew the case very well by the many questions she asked about different things. By the time the city got back up to talk, the hour of time that was allotted had almost run out and the city used it complaining again that they hadn’t previously heard about something the other side brought up when talking to the judge. All in all it appeared that the landlords were able to advance their case greatly while the city attorney used the time to just complain and beg about how they don’t understand anything and how the other doesn’t have any proof, even though they presented lots of proof to the court. It looked as if the judge knew there are legitimate claims being made here. We’ll know for sure when the court makes a ruling.
One more thing, I have as most of you know, spent a great deal of my personal income building participation in this forum. I have put my money where my mouth is!
I have a distribution staff of volunteers and paid employees who have distributed the Watchdog News paper and the A Democracy News Letter. I can deliver a paper to every doorstep in Saint Paul for a lot less than anybody in the entire city.
If you are a citizens who would like to see A Democracy Town Hall become an entity for change please contact me with your donations.
click above
I'm guessing from Bob's and the other post that summary judgement in favor of the City shall be coming soon.
Accusation is not evidence.
Bob why don't you just say where you want a donation sent to.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
I'm guessing from Bob's and the other post that summary judgement in favor of the City shall be coming soon.
Accusation is not evidence.
Bob why don't you just say where you want a donation sent to.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
12:10 PM
Chuck, this isn't the end. This case is going all the way to the supreme court.
Bob, register A Democracy as a non profit and you will get what you are looking for.
Bob, I'm not sure where you get your statistics on people with poor handwriting, but eligible voter turnout in MN is in the 10% range for primaries, but significantly higher in the general elections. 2006, a non-presidential election, was around 60%, and 2004 was almost 80%.
http://www.sos.state.mn.us/home/index.asp?page=667
btw, I know you've said that you don't care about spelling and grammar, but bad spelling/grammar is like bad breath. it's not illegal, but it sure makes communication easier on the receiving end...
To the spelling nazi.
I was referring to voter turn out in the City of Saint Paul.
As far as grammar and spelling go.
I feel the air gets raunchy when someone is to immature to overlook someone else's shortcomings.
You can not judge a persons intelligence on the level of education they have obtained. I have a long time friend who is a farmer. He can't read our write. Stayed home and worked on the farm and never went to school. He is the ultimate business man. Besides having lengthy knowledge in agriculture he is a mechanic, a veterinarian, a carpenter, an electrician and a plumber. He does all these things to keep his farm profitable and done this when other educated farmers where losing their butt. And yet he can only sign his name to a piece of paper. His wife and children read for him.
I do not have the worlds greatest grammar. The last thing anyone with half a brain would want to do is under estimate me.
Bob I agree enough OK? Can we get back on topic?
I was at the hearing and I see it the way 11:11 does. I'd like to hear from others.
homeowner
What am embarrassment.....the city Attorney complaining how she didn't understand the writings of the other side and trying to tell the judge how they have no facts and the judge doesn't even let her finish? Instead she gets told to sit down so the other side can explain it to her? All in all I think the city Attorney got about 10 minutes to talk and the plaintiffs took up all the rest of the time! I suspect a judgement for the palintiffs will coming shortly.
Here's the deal folks. Its a hearing to determine if the judge should drop the case against the City.
So, who do you think the judge is going to spend most time with, the side that is winning or the side that is losing?
The judge is trying to find some reason, any reason to keep the case going?
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
I was at the hearing.
I have been in many courtrooms over my life – more than I ever dreamed I would be. I have learned that one can never tell what decision a judge will make. However, I can usually tell if the presenter made their case and I do not see how the plaintiff’s attorney’s made their case.
I believe the issues before the court are real. I believe St. Paul’s actions have a disparate impact on people of color. I believe St. Paul holds private housing providers to a higher standard than they hold PHA/themselves too (Since WHEN did it become ok for government to force the private market to a HIGHER standard than they are held to?). I believe St. Paul’s code is higher than the state allows – and Morris V. Sax clearly articulated that is illegal. I believe St. Paul is using the civil law process of code enforcement to punish for criminal/undesirable behavior and I hope that is illegal (even Thune complained when St. Paul used code enforcement to raid a theater full of protestors). I believe that removing the “legal non-conforming” status of a house and forcing it to be brought up to current day code is only allowed when the building has been non-compliant for 12 months and the city often doesn’t wait days. I believe St. Paul is in the wrong.
The only part of the case where I felt the judge understood the case – and might rule for the plaintiff’s -- is on the equal protection claims. Otherwise, I hope the memorandum and supporting documents do a better job than the presentations.
My hunch is the majority of the people on this board will not like the judge's ruling.
Bill Cullen.
In all probability, the loser of this hearing will appeal. The plaintiff's did get their evidence into the judges hands. I am certain that an appeal to the 8th circuit will find for the plaintiff's.
Bill, Bill, Bill
The problem here is that we have all sorts of accusations mixed into some strange chain of events that don't make a case.
Morris v Sax is a state issue not a Federal one. So, even if there were bits and pieces of this case where that might play a part it has nothing to do with anything that is in front of the judge.
There is nothing in this case where there is any evidence that the City was making an effort to enforce the code diferently against people of color.
Even if the City were using the code in an effort to control criminal behavior, it is your side that suggests that is racially motivated and give no evidence other than that antidotal hostility of the landlords against blacks.
I think the willingness of the plaintiffs to continue will be determined by if the court charges then with court costs for bringing this bogus case.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Chuck,
I get it. My point is that plaintiff attorney mistakes does not prove the defendent is innocent.
Bill Cullen.
Some attorneys become so accustomed to confusing the issues that they can't get it right when they're in front of the court. Too bad for the palintiffs.
Bill but if you charge someone with stealing a car, spending most of your time showing bad checks that you have received from other people proves absolutely nothing towards the stolen car case.
The bulk of what comes out in the plaintiffs case are accusations that something is going on but no evidence that anything is going on.
My favorite ones that have been posted here is where Thune and Ward 4 aide Jane Prince both have sent emails showing they are concerned about people using the complaint system to get people they don't like and to particularly be concerned if it was racially motivated. Those emails prove that Thune and Prince (and therefore the City) are on the watch for that event occuring and trying to protect against it. But, to the plaintiffs it is somehow proof that the system is racist.
No judge on this planet will buy that arguement as either a part of a conspiracy or as a fair housing case. When elected and appointed officials show concern about the potential of abuse and take efforts to stop it, that is normally not proof of the reverse.
The entire case is like that. Better than half of the "ricomen" testify that the City wasn't out to get all of their properties, in better than half of the cases there is no link to race in the tenants, in all of the cases there is no one who ever directly profits, on, and on and on.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Chuck what did did Thune and Prince do to curb the racism in the complaint based systen?It seems to be the same as it always been.
Jim
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