DISCUSSIONS ON POLITICS, CIVIL RIGHTS, PROPERTY RIGHTS, AND ANYTHING THAT TICKLES OUR FANCY "HOST BOB JOHNSON" CONTACT Us at A_DEMOCRACY@YAHOO.COM Please stay on topic and no personal attacks.
posted by Bob at Monday, September 08, 2008
A DEMOCRACY TOWN HALL HOME
Do you have a topic you want to discuss at the Town Hall? Email your request to A_Democracy@yahoo.com
“A DEMOCRACY” Disclaimer- While the administrators and moderators of this forum will attempt to remove or edit any generally objectionable material as quickly as possible, it is impossible to review every message. Therefore you acknowledge that all posts made to this forum express the views and opinions of the author and not the administrators, moderators (except for posts by these people) and hence will not be held liable.
You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-oriented or any other material that may violate any applicable laws. Doing so may lead to you being immediately and permanently banned
THE ROOF GUYS
Mickey's Diner 1950 7th Street West, St Paul, MN
(651) 698-8387
AX-MAN SURPLUS
1639 University Ave.
St. Paul, MN 55104
Tel:(651)646-8653
LANDLORD.COM LINK HERE
SHHHH! While we listen to words of wisdom from a wise man.
Conscience is the light of the Soul that burns within the chambers of our psychological heart. It is as real as life is. It raises the voice in protest whenever anything is thought of or done contrary to the righteousness. Conscience is a form of truth that has been transferred through our genetic stock in the form of the knowledge of our own acts and feelings as right or wrong. A virtuous and courageous person can alone use the instrument of conscience. He or she can alone hear the inner voice of the soul clearly. In a wicked person this faculty is absent. The sensitive nature of his / her conscience has been destroyed by sin or corruption. Hence he or she is unable to discriminate right from wrong. Those who are leading organizations, business enterprises, institutions and governments should develop this virtue of the ability to use their own conscience. This wisdom of using the clean conscience will enable them to enjoy the freedom.
Dr APJ Kalam, President of India given during the inauguration of the seminar on “THE EFFECTS OF CORRUPTION ON GOOD GOVERNANCE AND HUMAN RIGHTS
31 Comments:
There maybe copy errors.
Defendants had solved the way to properly handle the “problem properties” with the successful “PP 2000” program that encouraged and facilitated a working relationship with the private low-income landlords. 045077-79, “Progress Report on PP 2000 January to September, 2000”. Defendants abandoned a most successful “problem properties” program called, “PP 2000” run by the City from 1999 through 2001. 045077-79.
In fact, the City Council in January 2001, had found the “Problem Properties 2000” “program” so successful that “There are also other problem properties that should be included and the program could be expanded to include those.” Minutes, January 24, 2001, 45654-58.
The PP 2000 program was a “new approach to dealing with properties that had a history of unresolved or repeat Code violation”. Id. The main thrust of the program was to eliminate violations before they enter the formal City complaint system by getting a small group of owners to take a more business like approach to managing their properties.” Id.
The first phase of PP2000 was to identify the owners to include in the program from data in City complaint files and from other sources. Id. The PP 2000 inspectors then met with
Case 0:05-cv-00461-JNE-SRN Document 237 Filed 08/25/2008 Page 44 of 78
45
each of the owners to explain the program, how it affected them and what the City expected from them.
Jeff Hawkins, a member of the PP 2000 inspector group, stated, “the idea with PP2000 is that you communicate with the landlords and see what problems they were having so that you could formulate a better plan for compliance instead of just constant punishment for it”. Hawkins, p.18-19. “[W]e wanted to work towards compliance and towards everybody having a good working relationship instead of the constant enforcement, enforcement, enforcement” Id. 26-27. PP 2000 inspectors thought the City could obtain better housing stock with a cooperative relationship with owners. 27-28. PP 2000 had an overall positive effect. p. 33-34.
Due to older buildings and deterioration issues and higher costs, landlords with more properties seemed to have more difficulty. Id. 21. The landlords had cost pressure from tenant caused damage as well. Id. 23
From discussions with the PP 2000 landlords, Hawkins observed that there needed to be a balance between the costs of doing repairs on properties in relation to attempts to keep rents affordable especially with the older rental properties. Id. 22; 67-70.
According to Hawkins, PP 2000 did exactly what the City Council wanted it to do to gain compliance and have a working relationship with the landlords at that time. Id. 26. “It was an overall positive effect” as fewer complaints were coming through the system and the neighborhood people saw an improvement in the housing stock. The "working relationship with the landlords," led to the positive effect (Id. 33), “landlords were partners in this too” and “we wanted to do is communicate with the landlords” Id. 33. “[W]e listened to them, listened
Case 0:05-cv-00461-JNE-SRN Document 237 Filed 08/25/2008 Page 45 of 78
46
to their problems and then tried to work it out together. So we were more of a partnership versus I'm telling you what to do and by when.” Id. 33-34. He recalls that the program was successful with about 70 percent of the PP2000 landlords. Id. 34-35.
Steinhauser was selected by the City for PP2000. Id. 36. Hawkins recalls at least weekly if not daily communications with Steinhauser. Id. 37. Recalls dealing with Steinhauser on the lower East side of City. Id. 37.
The relationship with Steinhauser is the only property owner Hawkins remembers from the PP2000 Program or for Code Enforcement – he says that relationship was the epitome of the program - the success. Hawkins described his working as a City code inspector and a PP2000 inspector with Steinhauser as a successful relationship and what he wanted for all those other landlords or the other ones in the 70 percent. Id. 42. Essling, 206 (Steinhauser was cooperative).
Hawkins recalls that owners informed the City that if code enforcement pushed too hard, there would be abandonment of the low-income properties. p. 81. Hawkins stated that inspectors enforced minimal property standards, not some suburban covenants or anything of that effect. 69-70
He was concerned that renovation could have an adverse impact on the tenants as the tenant may not be able to find replacement housing. p. 92. If violations were only in one unit of a multi-unit building, he would only condemn the one unit to keep the other unit occupied. p. 93.
See Dick Lippert’s memo dated 10/11/00, re PP 2000 Report, to inspectors Essling,
Case 0:05-cv-00461-JNE-SRN Document 237 Filed 08/25/2008 Page 46 of 78
47
Hawkins, Yannarelly, one page, on success of the PP 2000 program. Ex. 99 to 3rd Engel Aff., STP0408; Joel Essling Memo PP2000 no date - one page - lists Steinhauser, Vue and others; PP2000 Memo - lists 19 owners, including Steinhauser, Vues, PP2000 Memo - lists 17 owners, including Steinhauser, Vue; Also see Dick Lippert Deposition for PP 2000 topics, pages 62, 72, 73, 91, 92, 93, 94.
The City, Kelly and Dawkins abandoned the successful PP 2000 program and adopted a policy of confrontation with same low-income protected class landlords with heavy enforcement, excessive consumption fees, condemnations, code compliances, criminal tags, TRAs, which had an adverse impact on same landlords.
The PP 2000 Progress Report memo and related PP 2000 documents, and inspector deposition transcripts (Hawkins, etc), demonstrate that PP 2000 was a great success and would have been available to Kelly and Dawkins as an alternative to their “heavy enforcement” “code to the max” program against low-income landlords, would have improved the housing stock, and avoided the displacement of tenants, and vacant units both during City required renovations and due to long term vacancies.
Sounds like this Hawkins guy was a straight shooter.
If he was so good with Steinhauser, and Hawkins was so for the sucessful part of the
"PP 2000" program, why didn't the city get rid of Hawkins as an employee who no longer fit the mold of the citys new hostile agenda ?
Someone care to answer this ?
I think that when looking at the change that occurred under Kelly/Dawkins was that you had a Mayor and a code enforcement officer who were from the East Side and Frogtown. I think their history of hearing neighbors complaining over and over and over again about problem properties and the City's limited response created the more aggressive enforcement. They were responding to the citizens that elected Kelly.
Let's look at the Mayors and where they lived and that might give you a clue.
Elected 2001, Kelly lived on the East Side the people who voted for him year after year in the legislature were home owners that complained about the City's lax code enforcement.
Elected 1993 Norm Coleman lived on Summit Hill, not many code violations in his neighborhood.
Elected 1989 Jim Scheibel lived downtown, had represented Cherokee Park and Summit Hill as well.
Elected 1975 George Latimer lived on Summit Hill two blocks from Norm.
So, when Kelly comes into office and hears that we have a code enforcement that is tougher on problems in Mac Groveland or Saint Anthony Park and goes easy on property owners on the East Side, in his view lets them get away with garbage houses, he puts his foot down.
Kelly would view this: "Hawkins stated that inspectors enforced minimal property standards, not some suburban covenants or anything of that effect..." as saying the City thought it was OK for the East Side to go to hell and he wasn't going to have any part of it.
He wanted one code enforcement for the City and one level of acceptable conditions. Not an attitude of well, that's good enough for the East Side or Frogtown...
Kelly would view the "successfull PP2000 program" as a total failure.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
It's unfortunate, but the city adapted a culture of intimidation. Is that really what you are defending Chuck?
To Jeff
They did get rid of Hawkins. He was tranferred out of NHPI and works for a different department.
No 9:41 what the City tried to do is to make every neighborhood in Saint Paul have the same code is what I said.
What is advocated above from a Kelly view is that under previouse administrations it was OK to have substandard housing on the East Side.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
The city code is title Minimum Property Standards Chuck so don't talk like this guy was saying that one neighborhood got better codes. It was all the same code for the whole city and it's called Minimum Property Maintenance Standards. That's what the law is Chuck and that's what the city is authorized to enforce. If you don't like minimums, then get it changed.
When considering the incomes of the Macalester and Highland Park crowd verses the East Side, sometimes things have to be good enough for the East Side Chuck. They just flat out don't have the money to make the repairs that the people in Highland do. I hate to throw reality in your facem but that's where it's at my friend.
Chuck I think Dawkins and Kelly got sick of blacks who tear up neighborhoods in their side of town.Chuck with poverty come imperfect housing,it goes hand and hand and the only way to become perfect is get rid of the poverty stricten people.
If you go to any city, state or town you will find a housing stock worn down when povrty and minoritys are present-Sad but fact.
I think the reason constituents saw pp2000 a failure is that the same people(blacks and their culture)continued renting.
Inspectors assigned to pp2000 saw it a sucess because they saw landlords responding to code issues and life safety issues and maintaining hosing for the poor.
To supply any town with affordable housing and cheap rents the housing is going to be imperfect and just because it is doesn't mean its not safe.Chuck you and your cronies may not like how it looks but to that family living in it,its their home!
11:39 - You are completely WRONG. The residents of the East Side deserve living standards equal to any other neighborhood in Saint Paul. The house don't have to be big and gaudy but the residents shouldn't have to worry about plumbing, rodents and deficient structures. If you are a landlord and own property you shouldn't be able to say "that's good enough for the East Side." What a bastard you must be.
Jonathan
Jonathan your right to a point but St.Pauls aggresive code enforcement went after more then plumbing and rodents.
And one other thing.............If all of St.Paul looked like summit and highland St.Pauls housing stock would be out of reach for affordable housing folks.
Jim
Jim -
You entirely miss the point. Code enforcement doesn't try to make the houses as good as the houses in high rent areas - just that they are as livable - plumbing works, safe to walk down the stairs, etc. I wasn't stating everything that should be the same, I was stating examples you dipshit. Just as I am now.
Jonathan
Wow Johnny relax ya little wipper snapper!
I think you missed the point- pp2000 was addressing the issues you stated and things were getting done and tenants were safe.
Then Dawkins and Kelly came along and made it an issue to call everything knowing damn well it would hit the landlords pocket book forceing them to do repairs taht had nothing to do with the tenants health and safety but to rid the city of the bottom of the barrel lower teir tenats.(Dawkins words)
So before you start shooting your mouth off know what your talking about buddy!
Jim
I think what Steinhauser needs to do is get evidence that other city agencys such as parking enforcement
also had a mandate to rid the city of not so desirable looking motor vehicles through illegal and overly aggressive enforcement tactis including illegal towin and tagging.
I personally experienced this during the periods of time where Steinhauser and others were being
hammered.
I have the lawsuits to show that I took action against parking and code enforcement under Kelly.
Jeff Matiatos
Jimbo-
I think you miss the point. PP2000 was only working if you didn't live on the east side. I think Kelly and Dawkins did exactly what their constituents wanted. Just because it was working didn't mean that it was working to benefit everyone.
Jonathan
Johnny jumper where in the hell did you see pp2000 wasn't working on the eastside?And if you can't answer that Einstein tell me where it was working.Did you read what Hawkins and the department said?Read it again and get back to me.
Jimbo
What is substandard?
A close friend of mine is quite wealthy and has incredible standards in her home. She once showed me a new paint job in her kitchen and complained that the wall did not have the same sheen across the wall. I honestly could not see a flaw. It looked great. Is that substandard? To her it was.
In my home, I have two screens with a small hole, a hole in my kitchen ceiling, a range that is broke, a hedge that needs trimming, a stained carpet from my sick dog and a garage door that needs paint. Is that substandard? My wife and I like our home (although she is angry about the range – the part is on order).
So Jonathon & Chuck, how perfect should housing be? Some households cannot afford (or choose not to pay for) perfect housing. Frankly, my wife and I are one of those households. From my vantage point, St. Paul increased the housing standards to assure everyone has near perfect housing – and that is a VERY different standard than safe and healthy. St. Paul’s high standards will gentrify the city and drive low income folk out of housing.
Raise the standards high enough; and the homeless problem increases. So what is substandard?
Bill Cullen.
Well Bill for starters the rats shouldn't be so big that you can put saddles on them.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
To Johnathon at 1:01
No one is saying that people are expected to live or have to worry about plumbing, rodents and deficient structures.
A lot of what the people here are complaining about are criminal inspectors who allege these conditions when they don't exist.
My sttaement still stands.....when people on the poor side of town don't have the money to make repairs, the homes become noticably less in quality that the homes in Macalester and Highland.
What a bastard you must be to hold your nose in the air thinking everyone should be able to keep up with the Macalewaters and Highlands.
What rats are you talking about Repke? Who had rats? Did you take off your tin foil hat again Chuck?
Good point Bill.I believe St.Paul went wrong when they went above and beyond health and safety and addressed appearance issues.
St.Paul has admitted using code to address behavior.If its not criminal whats behavior issues?This is another aspect of the code and the visual appearance to the yuppy whites that St.Paul wanted to buy a house in Frogtown or the eastside.Come on Repke you can't sit here and bullshit us into thinking St.Paul wanted to keep the poor minorities in town.They targeted the yuppy whites during the biggest housing boom in history.You could say the City was upgrading to what they thought was a better class and less criminal minded society.
Lets face it folks with affordable housing comes crime.So if you want to get rid of crime you get rid of the affordable housing.And guess who needs the affordable housing in St.Paul Chuck.Yep thats right minorities.So you can draw a conclusion St.Paul was purging itself of the minorities.
High density white yuppies that pay high taxes and create less crime(smaller police force/less money)is what St.Paul wanted.Then they could have more money to spend on bike paths,green spaces,tif developments,water fountains and so on.
Jim
It's more than just a little obvious what's going on here when you read this stuff. It's been tried before and it'll be tried again. Cities never learn, they just keep repeating the same mistakes hoping for different results.
You guys are unreal. The City enforced minimum standards. That is what the code is.
What you jerks want is to allow substandard housing and have it approved by the City.
That is what Kelly saw as the policy of those who had never lived on the East Side. He believed that the previous administrations had decided to give up on those neighborhoods and no longer expect that the people living there deserved decent housing.
As to who is the racists, I would say you ass holes are the racists when you determine that that kind of housing is what should be acceptable for minority members. That is what is racist.
So, go back to North Oaks and Hopkins with your holier than thou attitude. You own properties in minority neighborhoods to exploit the poor and then call those of us who stand up for the people who are stuck living in your places racist?!!
Kiss my...
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Chuck said...........As to who is the racists, I would say you ass holes are the racists when you determine that that kind of housing is what should be acceptable for minority members. That is what is racist.
Ciani says...................
Chuck you demo'd property in the poverty stricten neighborhood off a White Bear avenue correct.If you care for the less fortunate tell us how many units were built and how many of those house low income.And now will see who the racist is.
Tim Ciani
Stick that in your pipe REPKE!
Tim - the development corp that I work for were partners in the redevelopment of the old super block, on Barclay. All of those units are affordable for low income residents, many section 8. So, let see I guess 200 units of very low income there. Nice job there cleaned up the area for people with very low income who escape from your places.
As to the development you like to piss about on White Bear and Maryland. I bought 2 houses at above market price from owner occupied residents and built 27 units of affordable ownership housing. Yes, Tim for sale housing isn't very low income like the 200 units that we helped to restore, but new construction 2 bedroom units for $129,000 is affordable for sale units.
And yes Tim, the housing market has collapsed so the partnership is paying the taxes, (not the city, private developers) but there are a lot of people holding a lot of condos at the moment all over the country.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Chuck the super block and your condo projects were different times whats your point?
Repkes point is slip and slid! Spin it , grease it with vaseline, shove it out the door and hope people can't get a grasp on it.....all the while he just keeps talking in circles until your so damn confused you walk away with a headache and mad at yourself because you even listened to him in the first place.
come on Tim asked..."If you care for the less fortunate tell us how many units were built and how many of those house low income."
and I told him about two projects taht the group I worked for was involved with.
NO spin zone here.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
NOTICE
Court hearing on city lawsuits
Friday 9-12-08
2 P.M. 300 S 4th St….courtroom 12W
Minneapolis, Mn.
Come and see what the real story is about these lawsuits. Hear the evidence for yourself. You’ll be surprised.
Hope the city of St. Paul gets what coming to them
Post a Comment
<< Home