BUSINESS AS USUAL/ Man, 23, says St. Paul police officers assaulted him outside State Fair
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posted by Bob at Thursday, September 03, 2009
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69 Comments:
Claim prompts internal investigation of Saturday incident
By Mara H. Gottfried
mgottfried@pioneerpress.com
Updated: 09/01/2009 11:46:29 PM CDT
St. Paul police arrested Keith Dawson, DOB 3/1/86, on 8/29/09, on suspicion of assault on a peace officer and obstructing legal process. He has not been charged. Dawson says police assaulted him as he left the Minnesota State Fair and police have opened an internal affairs investigation. Photo taken after his arrest 8/29/09. From Ramsey County sheriff's office. St. Paul police have opened an internal affairs investigation into a 23-year-old man's allegation that officers assaulted him as he left the Minnesota State Fair on Saturday.
Keith Dawson, of St. Paul, said he and five others who accompanied him to the Fair were walking out the Como Avenue gates about 7:30 p.m. As they stepped into the street, an officer came up to Dawson, grabbed his shirt and said, "Back, back, back," according to Dawson. The officer also grabbed him by the neck and threw him to the ground, Dawson said.
Six other officers came to assist and kicked and punched Dawson, including while he was handcuffed, Dawson said. He said many people were around at the time.
Police said Dawson created a disturbance in traffic and had to be brought to the ground, according to a police incident report. Dawson then spit blood on two officers, the report said.
Dawson was arrested on suspicion of assault on a peace officer and obstructing legal process, according to a Ramsey County Jail log. The Ramsey County attorney's office declined to charge Dawson with second-degree assault because of insufficient evidence, said Paul Gustafson, a county attorney's spokesman.
The St. Paul city attorney's office received the case Tuesday to consider misdemeanor or gross misdemeanor charges, including fourth-degree assault, disorderly conduct, obstructing legal process and possession of marijuana, said City Attorney John Choi.
Dawson said no cars were on the side of the street they were crossing, though there was traffic on the other side of the road. He said he did not create a disturbance and only told the officer who grabbed him, "Don't put your hands on me, sir."
Dawson was with his girlfriend, her uncle, the uncle's fiancee and his girlfriend's two children, ages 3 and 5. He said the officer didn't tell anyone else in the group to get back.
"I didn't do no harm," he said Tuesday. "I was just trying to cross the street. I never grabbed him (the officer), I never touched him or nothing. I never gave him a reason to do that. I don't know if he was having a bad day with a lot of people being rude to him."
Dawson, who said he had two beers and was not intoxicated, said he was spitting out blood because his mouth was full of it and he was trying to clear it from his mouth. He said he didn't intend to spit on officers. Dawson said he had three chipped teeth, as well as bruises on the back of his head and on his wrists from the handcuffs being tight.
While Dawson was in the back of the squad car and handcuffed, he said, an officer sprayed him with a chemical irritant. "The windows were up, I have asthma and I could barely breathe," he said.
Dawson's girlfriend's young children, whom he said he is helping to raise, saw everything that happened to him Saturday, he said.
"They're scared," Dawson said. "They don't even want to go to the State Fair anymore."
Dawson was booked into jail Saturday night and released Monday. Internal affairs investigators came to talk to him before he got out, and he gave them a statement, Dawson said. The people with him also have given statements.
The police department launched the internal affairs investigation on its own after becoming aware of the case, said police spokesman Sgt. Paul Schnell. The officers involved in the arrest are continuing to work, he said.
Dawson's criminal record includes a citation for unlawful assembly-disorderly conduct filed against him July 20. A warrant was issued Aug. 24 when he didn't appear in court, and he was arrested last Wednesday, according to court records.
Dawson pleaded guilty in July to receiving stolen property. He was convicted of public nuisance in 2008, possession of a firearm by an ineligible person in 2005, disorderly conduct in 2005 and receiving stolen property in 2004, court records show.
Dawson said he didn't recognize the officers he encountered Saturday from past arrests and he doesn't think his previous criminal record is relevant.
"That still shouldn't be a reason to grab me like that," he said. "I was just there with my family, enjoying ourselves. I don't feel I did anything wrong."
Mara H. Gottfried can be reached at 651-228-5262.
Hey sir
They sign the code of ethic as they are hired.
They should be fired, and NO Pensions.
Someone told me that the gang strike force is driving Sharon's car around town. Can you check on this Bob?
Bob, Bob, Bob...
My Daddy always taught me to be speak nicely to the police BECAUSE THEY ALL HAVE GUNS...
You appear to think that the appropriate way to deal with someone who has a loaded gun on their side holster is to give them enough shit and see if you get them ticked off enough to blow you away so that your next of kin can live off of the proceeds of their law suit over your unlawful death.
Well, that might make you feel good while you are waiting for admittance into the Pearly Gates, but I'll settle for not having my teeth kicked in, thank you very much.
Again, no clue as to what happened, but if you read the story and think about the situation, it sounds like you have a cop directing traffic outside the fair grounds; this young man decides to cross against the traffic (he said he was half way across the street waiting for the cars to clear) and probably against the direction of the cop and the cop goes over and physically stops him from crossing the street by grabbing his shirt and saying, "back, back, back."
Now I will make a guess that this guy is like you Bob and doesn't think that the cop has a "right" to put his hand on him and responded physically by pushing him away or at least whacking at his hand.
Well, Bob, there you have it. The cops response to this "threat" is to "control" this gentleman by forcing him to the ground and cuffing him. And it didn't work out to well for him.
That is what cops do when you touch them. They put you on the ground to make sure that you don't touch them anymore. That is what they have always done and it is what they always will do.
That is why I don't touch cops, Bob. It tends to be a good idea.
So, did the cops over react in this situation? It sounds like it. Is this guy going to get anything out of it? It all depends on if the force was necessary to control him. Was he still resisting? Because once he got physical on the cop the cops have the right to get him cuffed and controlled.
Its just the way the world works Bob. I hate to be the one who has to keep breaking it to you.
They can't "assault" him. But, if he was physical they can use what ever force appears necasary to "control" him.
So, a word of advice Bob, don't slap, or punch or spit at cops.
Just a suggestion.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
I think they assaulted him because he was black.
3:45 but, he was a black guy crossing the street against the light, with a cop directing traffic that he didn't listen to, that ended up grabbing him to pull him out of the street, that he then responded to in some way that facilitated being forced to the ground...
There were a thousand other black people crossing the street that day. So, to assume that the ONLY reason this happened was that he was black is nuts.
Was there an over reaction because he was black? Far to often.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke said 3:06 PM
My Daddy always taught me to be speak nicely to the police BECAUSE THEY ALL HAVE GUNS...
They can't "assault" him. But, if he was physical they can use what ever force appears necessary to "control" him.
So, a word of advice Bob, don't slap, or punch or spit at cops.
Just a suggestion.
Chuck R. you seem like a guy that came from a family with little or no balls.
Freedom is not FREE.
People like you are to simple to be a leader or stand up to the injustice, you sure didn't go to Johnson.
Chuck, Chuck, Chuck,
Earlier, I posted a comment then decided to delete it to avoid controversy. Chuck, you provoked me to post it again.
Here is what I wrote, plus some.
Quick story. A couple of months before my son moved to Frazee, some friends of my son were sitting in a car parked out front of his home. The police pull up and decided to shake them down. Lisa Knutson a friend of my son was very vocal in demanding why the police were there hassling them. She paid for her courage in standing up for their civil rights.
My son phoned me frantically screaming in the phone the police were out front of his home CHOKING Lisa. A Saint Paul police officer was carrying her around by her neck feet off the ground in a choke hold. WHY > He didn't like her mouth.
I informed my son to call 911 and tell the dispatcher what was happening, he did as I told him to do. I phoned the FBI seeking advice. I RACED over to my sons house thinking same old shit from the GOONS of our police department. Arrogant F**Ks!
My ole lady Cinnamon was heated and reaming these cops a new asshole. They threatened Cinnamon with obstruction of justice for expressing her dislike for choking Lisa. I warned them it wouldn't be a good idea. The cops lied their ass off concerning the assault. I encouraged Lisa to file charges but she feared for her safety and let it ride. Like you Chuck she is fearful of the police. I am not fearful. I have a DISDAIN for bad cops! The police are tax payers servants and sometimes they need to be reminded of this!
Chuck, your friends in the mayors office and city council past and present are responsible for these rogue cops. Their arrogant vindictive attitudes to rid the city of undesirables is fostering these rogue cops attitudes. We see civil rights violations concerning housing, civil rights violations on the street and now we see it in the form of a federal investigation of the gang strike task force.
Years ago a fella I went to school with, Micheal Messenger, was being shaken down by the cops for WWB (walking while black). He took offense to this because it wasn't the first time. Micheal fought back Chuck. Kicking the shit out of not one but 6 cops. Knocking them out to the ground one after the other. The punks weren't man enough to respect his rights and they weren't man enough to take him down either. They pulled their guns on him to make the arrest.
Everyone in the street some where around 100 people were CHEERING Micheal on. This is the climate that these civil rights abuses foster in the community. These rogue cops give all cops a bad name. You may wonder why I side with Keith Dawson Chuck. This is easy for me "experiencing" seeing and hearing about civil rights violations for years.
History has shown, these cops have taken civil rights violations to the point there is an established "motive of operandi".
After the police assault a citizen it is common practice the police bring forth alleged assault charges and obstruction of justice charges against the citizen they beat. They pulled the same shit on my son. I'd still like to get the pigs who beat my son in the ring and box their f**king lights out.
I and many others believe the police and city use these false charges to cover their ass should a citizen complain of civil rights violations.
I am wondering what city attorney suggested the police use these tactics to cover their ass? Was that you Choi? Choi you do not represent the citizens of Saint Paul, you represent the status quo of mischievous politicians.
Chuck, I do not want citizens to fear cops like you and Lisa do. When fear over comes us we lose our freedoms.
There is far more good cops than bad. The problem is the good cops are just as guilty as the bad ones for not standing up for justice.
From the article;
The police department launched the internal affairs investigation on its own after becoming aware of the case, said police spokesman Sgt. Paul Schnell. The officers involved in the arrest are continuing to work, he said.
My response;
Sure, white wash the fence as soon as possible.
"There was witnesses".
Internal affairs is a puppet of the police department don't expect nothing to come of this unless there is public pressure.
Police spokesman Paul Schnell is another arrogant asshole who will cross the line of civil rights violations. I posted a story some months ago concerning him and fellow officers threatening me because I was called in as an observer in an incident they responded to. They don't appreciate witnesses. I will look for the story.
And no Chuck I am not stupid enough to put my hands on a cop. However, I will defend myself and I am very vindictive and would pursue justice to the full extent of the law if a PIG violates my rights. I believe Keith Dawson when he said he didn't put his hands on the cop. I'm confident the witnesses have the same story. I will try and contact Mr. Dawson and invite him to comment here.
"The end justifies the means." This attitude is getting more pervasive, and the city's desired end is to treat them like gods, hence their anal attitudes.
Definition of a PIG
Any peace officer who knowingly and willing violates a citizens rights
So what if there were a 1,000 other blacks crossing the street Chuck. This cop can't beat them all up and if he did more than 1 here and there it wouldn't be as subtle. We know the score here.
"
Any peace officer who knowingly and willing violates a citizens rights"
What about the ones that don't who cover up for the ones that do?
I imagine the cop who initiated the assault on Dawson was having trouble getting people to listen to him through out the day. Keith Dawson probably came along when this officer had had enough. It is very possible if Dawson had been a preppy white citizen there would of been a different outcome.
But no Dawson was black, the very type of citizen the cops have been violating and attempting to run out of the city for years.
And no 11:19, I don't consider all cops pigs. I know several Saint Paul police officers on a personal level. One of these guys is a fishing buddy. They are ostracized by their peers for ratting on their comrades. There is a history of vindictiveness and retaliation against city employees who challenge the status quo.
The problem runs deep and must be address at the Mayor and city council levels before we can expect change.
Maybe the city should initiate a "Cash for Snitches" program with a sliding scale reward depending on how high level the dirt is that one would turn in?
I want you folks to think about something.
In my opinion the cop should have, with VERBAL COMMANDS sent Dawson on his way without putting his hands on Dawson. Instead the cop choose to violate Dawson's rights make a scene over some words exchanged and disrupt TRAFFIC!
Anonymous said... 12:06 PM
Maybe the city should initiate a "Cash for Snitches" program with a sliding scale reward depending on how high level the dirt is that one would turn in?
That would be nice, but when we Blow The Whistle on police or any city, county, state or federal government or their employees it get covered up like trash at a dump.
Maybe we should keep a closer eye on what the cops do, they bake the laws more then the common people do.
PS WHO"S WATCHING THE CITY OFFICALS, and who will they
pay off to shut up about what they are pulling.
Billy D.
The Wistle Blower on Government
what rights?
this jackass was told to do something be a legal authority. he refused. His refusal put not only his life in danger but others. The cop took action and he whines.
That a busy street and if people decided to ignore the traffic cops, you'd have people being hit by cars and lawsuits all over the place.
Bob, Bob, Bob...
I have no time for any officer assaulting any citizen, but my point is that you make it seem like you know that this guy is perfectly innocent and the cop just hates black people.
I worked in corrections in one half way house or another from 1974 until 1989 and I damn near every guy that was doing life by the installment plan was firmly convinced that the system was out to get him. He just couldn't get a break, the cops and the courts were out to get him. White, Black, Brown it didn't matter they were all victims of the system.
Did he steal something...? yes but Or did he assault someone? yes but
Always an excuse, always the victim.
Its bullshit Bob pure bullshit.
Read the damn story again and you and I both know what happened.
The cop was directing traffic, this guy blew him off and started across the street anyway, right into traffic, forcing them to stop for him. The cop grabs him by the shirt to push him back. The guy gets offended by the cop putting his hands on him and pushes back and all shit breaks loose.
Should the cop have stopped him from walking into traffic? Beats me. Was it within the cops rights to physically stop him from walking into on coming traffic? Damn straight. Would there have been a big story if this jerk was run over? You bet'cha.
Can the citizen swat the cops hands or push a cop? No, no they can't Bob.
$10 to your favorite charity if it doesn't turn out that there are plenty of witnesses to this guy pushing back or swatting the cops hands. And all of the witnesses on the other side are family.
That is all there needs to be for this case to go nowhere.
Call it racist if you want, but nobody wins law suits if they make physical contact with the cops.
The winners in law suits are those who are not physical, or where the force was more than what it took to subdue.
And Bob I don't fear cops. I just think that it makes sense to understand the rules of the game before you play. If the cop fears for his life he can shoot you. It is as simple as that. So, I don't get myself in a position where a cop is going to feel OK shooting me.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Chuck said;
Call it racist if you want, but nobody wins law suits if they make physical contact with the cops.
The winners in law suits are those who are not physical, or where the force was more than what it took to subdue.
My response;
On this statement, I couldn't agree with you more Chuck.
Very possible Keith Dawson is going to get paid! If I get in touch with him I will hook him up with a good attorney. :)
Ass kicked with severe bodily harm chipped teeth, bruises, and arrested for what looks like a cop pissed off over something a citizen said to him. Even if Dawson was pulling away from this cop, if he was pulling in the direction the cop wanted him to go he should of left it at that. Actually he shouldn't of put his hands on Dawson period unless he refused to move!
I'm sure this cop was giving commands through out the time he was directing traffic and people were complying. I wonder how many others he felt he needed to put his hands on to get them to comply to his wishes. There was no need for EXCESSIVE FORCE.
I really want to talk to the witnesses, and like I said I am seeking them out.
How would any of you out there feel if you were in these circumstances.
You are with a group of people leaving the fair, and all of you are crossing the road against a police officers commands. Not a wise thing to do but then again we aren't talking about committing a heinous crime now are we. A cop singles you out of the crowd and grabs you forcefully like some school kid who has done something wrong embarrassing you in front of your family and hundreds of strangers. You ask him kindly to take his hands off you and the cop cops an attitude and proceeds to knock your lights out with the assistance of 6 other cops.
Beaten after being handcuffed. Maced in the back seat of the car with the windows rolled up while handcuffed and having asthma.
Chuck, I read the story. Your colors show brightly!
JMONTOMEPPOF
3:50 PM
hey Chunky Boy
Cops can do as they please to you or I, but if you gard your face from a club or a punch - is that called what and they do it and Chunky says that's ok.
why is that.
Bob said: "You are with a group of people leaving the fair, and all of you are crossing the road against a police officers commands. Not a wise thing to do but then again we aren't talking about committing a heinous crime now are we. A cop singles you out of the crowd and grabs you forcefully like some school kid who has done something wrong embarrassing you in front of your family and hundreds of strangers. You ask him kindly to take his hands off you and the cop cops an attitude and proceeds to knock your lights out with the assistance of 6 other cops."
Well, that is an interesting story, but it doesn't appear to be the one that happened here.
I read this story like this:
A police officer is directing traffic at a busy state fair intersection and someone walks into the traffic that has the light. The officer tells the pedestrian to stop and but he continues on forcing traffic to stop for him. The officer walks over to the non-compliant pedestrian and grabs him by the shirt removing him from the traffic hazard. When the officer tries to remove him from the hazard the pedestrian yells at the officer, struggles, and pushes the officer. The officer responds by trying to arrest the person who physically assaulted him and six other officers makes sure that he is subdued.
Did some of those officers over react in their arrest of somoeone who assaulted their fellow officer? We shall see. But, did the officer have the responsibility to stop the person from creating a traffic hazard and getting himself or someone else killed? Yup that is his job.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Chuck says Yup a lot. That's the hallmark of a regular Yuppie.
It's election time on
September 15
When the police look bad, the mayor looks worst.
By the way who is the mayor now, is it Chris or Norm Coleman.
Both were Democratic St.Paul Mayors, right chuck.
1:40
Norm Coleman was never endorsed by the DFL for any office.
He may have called himself a DFL'er but just because he said so doesn't make it so. Its like you saying you know what you are talking about.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Very interesting that going thro EvaforMayor Facebook that the DFL County Attorney Susan Gaertner is a FAN of the Republic Endorsed Eva NG??????
Sharon is learning Wigets Bobby make a Widget of This Blog http://www.widgetbox.com/make/
Submitted for Educational Purposes
Keep up the Great Work and See you on Face Book http://www.widgetbox.com/make/
Norm Coleman was never endorsed by the DFL for any office.
He may have called himself a DFL'er but just because he said so doesn't make it so. Its like you saying you know what you are talking about.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
11:38 PM
What do you cakk yourself and randy kelly.
Randy Kelly was not endorsed by the DFL either for his one term as mayor.
Oh Tommy Boy...
You are so funny, just not Ha Ha funny.
I think I have said about five times in this thread that I am not OK with anyone using excessive force and if the cops did they will pay for it.
It is the same for any arrest, white, black, protest, whatever the crime.
My only point in this or any other rant of Bob's is that it is easy to always to assume the worst without any facts.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
nice racial slur. it really made your point.
I received an email reminding me Saint Paul police officer Dean Koehnen. (unsure of spelling of last name) should of been on my list of token blacks of our bigoted city administration of past and present.
Dean accompanied code enforcement officer Lisa Martin on housing inspections. It has been said by numerous citizens that Dean used his enormous size to intimidate his way into citizens homes so Lisa Martin could write the homes up code to max in an effort to condemn the homes and remove the tenants from neighborhoods. Tenants who were most often black.
I have posted emails here from city employees suggesting Dean was part of the team for the intimidation factor. I have posted testimony from citizens they were intimidated by Dean to gain entry to their homes. And Chuck would want you folks to believe I rant without facts.
The fact IS, most of what I post and say here is based on the stories of average citizens like you and I.
WHAT I SAY HERE IS MY "OPINON" BASED ON MY EXPERIENCE AND THE STORIES I HEAR.
Heads up, there is a Saint Paul police officer doing foreclosure clean outs on the side. Beware of this guy. He isn't paying his workers for an honest days work. This story coming up later today.
OK Bob just for an example...
"I have posted emails here from city employees suggesting Dean was part of the team for the intimidation factor. I have posted testimony from citizens they were intimidated by Dean to gain entry to their homes. And Chuck would want you folks to believe I rant without facts."
OK so someone without knowledge "suggests" that the officer was used to intimidate... and someone who had code violations says after the fact, they "felt intimidated" and you want that to be a "fact" that the City of Saint Paul sent an officer with code enforcement to intimidate people into opening their home for inspection.
Those aren't FACTS. That is called speculation. That is making an assumption. That is nothing more than guessing.
Inspectors have been shot. It could be just as true that an officer went along for protection. Some people feel more comfortable opening the door for a police officer than for someone with an inspectors badge, it is just as much a fact that the officer was sent along to give comfort to the resident that it really was the City that was at the door.
That was my point Bob that I just try and point out that there is another side to these stories of yours that are just as true.
Its like that you fail to point out that most of the problem property owners run their problem properties in neighborhoods with higher minority home ownership hurting the property values for many people of color. But you don't give a damn about those people who lose their investments in their homes or feel forced to sell their houses because of your friends.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Chuck, previously I said, Dean accompanied code enforcement officer Lisa Martin on housing inspections. It has been said by numerous citizens that Dean used his enormous size to intimidate his way into citizens homes so Lisa Martin could write the homes up code to max in an effort to condemn the homes and remove the tenants from neighborhoods. Tenants who were most often black.
"I will add, it was also suggested in emails from one city employee to another intimidation was the intention of sending along officer Dean". I posted these emails here in the past.
Folks, I am still looking through the archives for the statement made by a city code inspector to the Maplewood Police. This code inspector was suggesting she feared retaliation from other individuals within city government for cooperating with investigators concerning the murder of Barbara Winn.
Maybe some of you will remember the Rice Street Parade a couple of years back when a black man was beaten for questioning an officer for shaking him down. This stuff goes on more often than citizens realize. The problem is most of us never hear about it. I am in a unique position with the evolution of this town hall, I hear complaints from folks across this city.
And Chuck, who in their right mind wouldn't believe the stuff I hear? I am told numerous similar stories by citizens who do not know each other concerning misconduct perpetrated by city employees. What are the odds all these people are liars or don't have their facts straight? I have posted sworn testimony concerning the misconduct.
Although, I will say I appreciate your perspective Chuck.
"Heads up, there is a Saint Paul police officer doing foreclosure clean outs on the side. Beware of this guy. He isn't paying his workers for an honest days work."
I guess I'm a little confused. Do you mean the cop is cleaning them out as in junk left behind when people leave or is he going in and cleaning out the good stuff (electronics,e tc) before they get the boot?
Also does not paying the crew mean he's not splitting the booty with them?
"OK so someone without knowledge "suggests" that the officer was used to intimidate... and someone who had code violations says after the fact, they "felt intimidated" and you want that to be a "fact" that the City of Saint Paul sent an officer with code enforcement to intimidate people into opening their home for inspection."
It wasn't someone who had code violations and they didn't just say it, they testified to it. A tenant was the one who testified and they said just that.....they were intimidated by the Police and the inspector said the reason for the Police being there was because they had to come in.
Why don't you get the deposition and refresh Cuck's mind Bob. He seems to get a little cloudy upstairs when you start bringing out real facts.
The city racist pushed blacks out of Rondo, Selby/Dale, Frogtown and the East Side.
Edward
Help me Bob, would you feel better if only small police officers would go with code people for inspections?
I don't get it. I truly don't get it. You are saying that this one cop was picked out of the 355 cops in Saint Paul to go with inspectors because he is black and a large person. And you don't think that sounds insane to anyone who can walk and chew gum?
Bob you put random things together and claim that they are a pattern because they fit the story line you want to believe.
For some people any cop would scare them into compliance. For some people any large black guy would scare them into compliance. For some people they aren't going to give a damn and tell them they need a warrant to enter.
But, Bob thinks because a large black man was assigned to a particular assignment for some period of time then it must mean that his physical characteristics were the reason why he was assigned the job. The fact that other cops went on other runs...ignore that, it was this cop that was intimidating...
That Bob is why the court case was dismissed because things like that aren't facts.
And someone said it was significant because someone "testified" to it. Like that means something. They are testifying that they felt intimidated. Hmmm I could testify that I felt cold today... Prove that I didn't feel cold today.
It means nothing. It is a statement an opinion, nothing.
What did you think God would strike them dead for lying when the swore on the Bible? The horror....
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Chuck. I am merely the messenger of hundreds of citizens grief.
Stay tuned, things are going to get real interesting here in the town hall.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke said: 3:33 PM
Help me Bob, would you feel better if only small police officers would go with code people for inspections?
I don't get it. I truly don't get it. You are saying that this one cop was picked out of the 355 cops in Saint Paul to go with inspectors because he is black and a large person. And you don't think that sounds insane to anyone who can walk and chew gum?
.
.
.
.
Hey Chuck
Did Hitler have little S S Men, or did he have Large Men as his Strong Arm of His Law.
People try to be good American's and obey the Government Laws of our country and cities,
just to see that the real law breaker are the politicians and the police.
Chris Coleman's has his own "st.paul supermen as police".
But I know this is a small percent of our police, we have more good cops that tries to be kind to the people.
This is the real life on earth, some good and some bad.
Is Chuck in some ones pocket, maybe helping him to be one of St.Paul's biggest realtor with big money?
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Bill Dahn
Bob are you too much of a dumbass to see that 10:02 is playing to stupidity and bigotry in here? He writes offensive and contradictory statements on bigotry that you agree with, because he seems to support some conspiracy. I think its Froggy, except he used words Froggy don't understand.
Mr Swift could have used 'uppity' black man, like the Republican Congressman did last year, but instead he chose to use a word that rather he believes it or not, is one of the worst in our language. Since I don't expect any different from him, I'm not surprised.
Bob, however, have taken the role of being the spokesman of what blacks may find offensive, who is a token AND what conditions poor blacks are lucky to live in. That's a lot for you to take on there Bob-O. I suggest you use the seventh day for rest.
You're so full of yourself that you probably insist on other smelling your farts for their enjoyment.
Chew on this, either you, a part time handyman, is the only voice for the disenfranchised in this city and the hundreds who have dedicated their lives to help people of color and the poor get a fair shake are just full of shit.
Or, you are. Can't be both. Groups of churches, organizations, individuals, community leaders, community activists, elected officials and public employees- all who have years of speaking up and helping the poor and NONE of them standing with you? NONE. Thousands of people and no one sees this like you do?
You know who see it like you do? Landlords. You know what all of those people have in common? All have at one time or another been involved with helping the poor against, not just these types of landlords but, these landlords.
You can try to call out anyone you want but, you're the one siding with the group that has brought a lot of angst and taken advantage of people in the group you so call speak for.
So, as I have asked you before, 'how long are you going to bark little doggie before you realize its your master's hand that you should bite?'
Eric
Eric, I didn't use "'uppity' black man" because that's not the term I believe most liberals have floating in their heads when they see a black guy getting thumped to the pavement.
Just because they are too cowardly to put their racism in context doesn't mean I (or you, or anyone) should ignore it.
The funny thing is (funny strange, not haha) is that so many minorities, blacks especially, focus on the left's smarmy PC campaign while ignoring the destruction leftist programs have wrought in their communities and families.
Eric said;
Bob are you too much of a dumbass to see that 10:02 is playing to stupidity and bigotry in here? He writes offensive and contradictory statements on bigotry that you agree with, because he seems to support some conspiracy. I think its Froggy, except he used words Froggy don't understand.
My response;
You must be really angry with me Eric. Back to calling names.
I may not have half the schooling most here have, (minor business trade school)but, you would have to be a damn fool to underestimate my intelligence.
I think I know who the bigoted poster is. I have tried in private
conversations with this person to get them to understand why they are a bigot. Fact is this person thinks he is just a little bit better than black folks.
I believe it is important for bigotry to be exposed from the closet. Fact is most home grown whites in Saint Paul over 40 are closet racist. They aren't your KKK hooded types, they are more like Archie Bunker.
Eric said;
Bob, however, have taken the role of being the spokesman of what blacks may find offensive, who is a token AND what conditions poor blacks are lucky to live in. That's a lot for you to take on there Bob-O. I suggest you use the seventh day for rest.
My response;
I am a spokesman for all people Eric, not just blacks. I will fight for anyone's civil rights because in doing so I am fighting for mine.
When I speak here I am expressing my opinion. There is many cops who would like to beat and arrest me for my opinion. And if I was black, the likelihood of being beat would be greater.
I take issue with blacks who have been appointed to positions within the city where they could make a difference concerning civil rights violations and they do nothing. They become part of the problem and not the solution. We have had two black police chiefs and a black woman heading our civil rights division of the city attorneys office all the while our neighborhoods were being gentrified. All the while blacks were being beaten for daring to question a police officer.
Eric said;
You're so full of yourself that you probably insist on other smelling your farts for their enjoyment.
My response;
Child regression Eric?
The over whelming smell here is the shit we keep uncovering month after month.
Eric said;
Chew on this, either you, a part time handyman,
My response;
I know Eric, you would like folks to believe I am some what of a lesser man than someone perhaps with a job as a dentist or doctor, or perhaps a dirty politician.
I am twice the man of anyone who doesn't dare to stand up for their rights or the rights of others.
I am a part time handyman, a part time volunteer who helps poor citizens keep their home up to code for FREE! I am a civil rights activist FULL TIME! My plate is full. I have worked 70 plus hours a week in my efforts.
Eric continued;
is the only voice for the disenfranchised in this city
My response;
You said that not me!
Eric continued
and the hundreds who have dedicated their lives to help people of color and the poor get a fair shake are just full of shit.
My response;
Once again, you said this not me.
Eric continued;
Or, you are. Can't be both. Groups of churches, organizations, individuals, community leaders, community activists, elected officials and public employees- all who have years of speaking up and helping the poor and NONE of them standing with you? NONE. Thousands of people and no one sees this like you do?
My response;
And the young black men of our city are still being beaten on a regular basis for daring to have an opinion. And our neighborhoods are still being gentrified. Good work folks. My assistance sure can't hurt Eric.
I have my own way of doing things. I prefer PUBLIC exposure. More akin to a public spitting post. I come to believe a means of change is embarrassment.
Eric continued;
You know who see it like you do? Landlords. You know what all of those people have in common? All have at one time or another been involved with helping the poor against, not just these types of landlords but, these landlords.
My response;
You must have neglected to read the testimony of the landlords tenants you speak of Eric. They said they had good landlords and they were upset the big bad city put them and their families on the street with no place to go. Women and children. One little girl was raped while at one of the shelters they ended up in Eric.
Eric continued;
So, as I have asked you before, 'how long are you going to bark little doggie before you realize its your master's hand that you should bite?'
My response;
Fact is Eric, I blaze my own trail in life. My son and his mother believe I am a King of Kings. That is alot from an ex wife. I am loved by many. I am secure in my being and life. I follow my conscience, not my pocket book.
Now I tried very hard not to insult you Eric inspite of your insulting comments. I consider you a friend after all these years of deabte and I would hope you would give me the same respect no matter how angry you are with me.
I just couldn't let this ride!
Eric said;
all who have years of speaking up and helping the poor and NONE of them standing with you? NONE. Thousands of people and no one sees this like you do?
My response; That is a BOLD FACE LIE ERIC. Thousands of people see what has been going on in our city. Even hard line DFlers are breaking ranks Eric. These good DFLers are tired of the status quo of vindictiveness within city government.
I suspect "GOOD" DFLers will be making a statement in the up coming elections.
I suspect "GOOD" DFLers will be making a statement in the up coming elections.
You bet your ass "we" will. I'm also sure you'll come up with some excuse by Wednesday morning.
Mark my words, Bill Dahn will go down in humility next week. The top two finishers will be Chris Coleman by at least 20 points, next will be Eva (the republicans have been working pretty hard for her) and the other three or four candidates will split the leftovers.
The DFL school board candidates will all come through on top.
Five days and counting.
When you see that in spite of your years of efforts to demonize groups, and believing you are some messiah or "King of Kings", you may realize you are in the minor, nutty section reserved for people who see black helicopters and Aliens in cahoots with the CIA.
Welcome to club on police brutality. I've got a record that goes back to 2001 of working on or with commissions and groups that have made it tough for cops who act unethically. Your own posters and supporters right here on Crackpot Central Blog, have tried to paint me as hating cops, and in the next topic as being in their pockets. Baseless accusations is what drives this blog.
I question your intelligence because the stuff you write is pretty dumb. Doesn't matter what your education may be, you act like a conspiracy dupe who only needs to hear a string of words to decide its fact. I don't know how else to put it. Bill Finney went through hell over the actions he enforced, including having the cops names sewn on their uniforms (so you know who you're dealing with) and having them hand out cards with their information on it to people who got pulled over. Both Chiefs, who are not philosophically or politically alike, came out early in support of the racial profiling data, testified and enforced policy to address it. I see more sanctions now than just in the previous decade. The Human Rights team have moved mountains to address the problem and countless, unelected or appointed blacks have worked to bring exposure- much more than a blog of crackpots.
Only a person of great hubris or massive stupidity can make the statements you made, without as so much as checking out what has been done. Black people are still catching hell all over. Including being taken advantage of by slumlords. Cops are still abusing authority, more are being punished for it than ever before. That last statement is important.
Eric
Eric said;
When you see that in spite of your years of efforts to demonize groups, and believing you are some messiah or "King of Kings", you may realize you are in the minor, nutty section reserved for people who see black helicopters and Aliens in cahoots with the CIA.
My response;
I did not say I was a messiah Eric. You are insinuating that in an attempt to demonize me to kill the messenger. I was referring to my moral character as others who are close to me see me. My family Eric! Do you have an ex-wife or girlfriend Eric, and if so does she respect you? I highly doubt any women in your past respects you as abusive as you are. And of coarse once again you cannot control yourself and you proceed to attempt to demoralize me with untruths and insults. Grow up Eric.
Are you men out there the King of your home? Sure you are.
Eric, your history is carved in stone here and in city circles. You have been abusive and intimidating in neighborhood meetings and elsewhere including here at the town hall. Evidence that has come out "here" about you over the years. Just the kind of guy that fits in with these pecker woods in local city government who gentrify our neighborhoods.
Eric said;
Baseless accusations is what drives this blog.
My response;
There has been numerous facts and evidence provided here on many different issues. Testimony from witnesses! Eric, tell a convicted criminal the witnesses used to convict him weren't evidence.
Eric said,
Only a person of great hubris or massive stupidity can make the statements you made, without as so much as checking out what has been done.
My response;
More of your childish insults. Checking out what was done? I hear one story after another almost monthly of some one's civil rights being violated.
Eric continued;
Black people are still catching hell all over. Including being taken advantage of by slumlords. Cops are still abusing authority, more are being punished for it than ever before. That last statement is important.
My response;
I have to agree with you on this one. But it isn't the case in Saint Paul. Around the country yes, in Saint Paul, "very little" to nothing has been done about these civil rights abuses.
Melvin Carter, you are the worst kind of black TOKEN.
One of the issues of your campaign was, you were supposedly concerned about gentrification of our neighborhoods. I supported you here at this town hall.
The issue of gentrification may of gotten you elected and you have let your constiuents down big time. Tell us Melvin, what have you done concerning gentrification of our neighborhoods? unless there is invisable results, you have done NOTHING but line your pocket with tax payers money.
You best not comment on this one Eric. You screwed the incumbent city council woman Montgomery out of $5000 and her city council seat with bad political advice.
More "facts" for you Eric.
token 593 thumbs up, 61 thumbs down
black guy put in a movie in order to please the black community and give of the imporession of racial acceptance
(Black guy appointed to city positions in order to please the black community and give the impression of racial acceptance.)
I did not say I was a messiah Eric. You are insinuating that in an attempt to demonize me to kill the messenger. I was referring to my moral character as others who are close to me see me. My family Eric! Do you have an ex-wife or girlfriend Eric, and if so does she respect you? I highly doubt any women in your past respects you as abusive as you are. And of coarse once again you cannot control yourself and you proceed to attempt to demoralize me with untruths and insults. Grow up Eric.
Bob of Nazareth,
I don't have an ex-wife, that's a pretty good start.
My wife and I have been married for double digit years now, so most of my girlfriends would be in a setting of when we were teenagers or in our twenties.
I read you're a facebook snoop, well you can see most are friends of mine. They don't see me as a 'King of Kings' or an asshole.
Are you men out there the King of your home? Sure you are.
Since I have a wife, no. We share duties in the household. I travel sometimes for work, she also works, and we have small children that we both take care of, so she does way too much around here for me to be claiming myself 'King'. By the way, the 50's called, they want their marriage ideals back.
Eric, your history is carved in stone here and in city circles. You have been abusive and intimidating in neighborhood meetings and elsewhere including here at the town hall. Evidence that has come out "here" about you over the years.
Bob, I live on the East Side. This is not Highland Park. We have real emotional issues here, and in our council meetings, those emotions spill over into anger for many. In order to keep them from intimidating others and dominating the meeting (like so many town hall forums), I took control and enforce the rules of order everyone agrees upon beforehand. This place gets the worst of me because as already explained, the idiocy run rampant. For instance, you next statement:
Just the kind of guy that fits in with these pecker woods in local city government who gentrify our neighborhoods.
Uh-huh. You, some old white dude that apparently uses words he has no understanding of, and is dependent on that same government is in a position to point that out?
Listen you fool, you are supporting the landlords who contribute to the most housing abuse suffered by the poor in this city.
Bottom line, You support the idea that poor people have no right to expect anything but substandard housing that doesn't meeting the bottom line in housing in the city of St Paul. Slums. If you are poor, Bob Johnson insists that you living in a slum unit is just fine.
NOT ONE of these landlords YOU support denied on record of not having MULTIPLE code violations. Many of these units should not have been rented in the fist place.
You best not comment on this one Eric. You screwed the incumbent city council woman Montgomery out of $5000 and her city council seat with bad political advice.
She didn't get screwed out of anything. She paid me for advice, strategy and execution for two months. She got all three from me. As a matter of fact, Carter received a very similar plan of attack from his campaign people.
More "facts" for you Eric.
More? I'm still waiting for 'any'.
Eric
Eric said;
Uh-huh. You, some old white dude that apparently uses words he has no understanding of, and is dependent on that same government is in a position to point that out?
My response;
""""""""""peckerwood"""""""""""
•Derisive term for an elderly white person (usually male) with a blanched and craggy complexion; generally regarded as a segregationist and prejudiced individual. The term is derived from the appearance of a tree (usually dead) after woodpeckers riddle the tree bark with beak drillings. The tree eventually loses its' bark, leaving a gray, blanched appearance.
That old man is a peckerwood S.O.B.
Furthermore, I do not suck off ANY government programs Eric. You are the biggest f**king liar in this town halls history. That is a fact!
I home schooled my son, worked part time and collected absolutely no government assistance. And I did this for 6 years.
Eric said;
Listen you fool, you are supporting the landlords who contribute to the most housing abuse suffered by the poor in this city.
My response;
Once again, that isn't what the landlords tenants said in sworn testimony Eric. They appreciated their landlords. They didn't appreciate the big bad city useing code enforcement to throw them and their children out on the street just because some peckerwoods didn't want them in the neighborhood.
Eric said;
Bottom line, You support the idea that poor people have no right to expect anything but substandard housing that doesn't meeting the bottom line in housing in the city of St Paul. Slums. If you are poor, Bob Johnson insists that you living in a slum unit is just fine.
My response;
Still earning your title the biggest liar here. It is a job disseminating your Lie's Eric. How can anyone trust you?
I said;
Are you men out there the King of your home? Sure you are.
Eric's response;
Since I have a wife, no. We share duties in the household. I travel sometimes for work, she also works, and we have small children that we both take care of, so she does way too much around here for me to be claiming myself 'King'. By the way, the 50's called, they want their marriage ideals back.
My response;
My ex believes she is the Queen of her household. We all know how much of an influence the queen of the household has. :)
Eric said;
NOT ONE of these landlords YOU support denied on record of not having MULTIPLE code violations. Many of these units should not have been rented in the fist place.
My response;
you forget to mention the allegations the city has lied numerous times with false violations to condemn these homes. I or anyone with half a mind can find code violations on any older home. Don't believe me ask City councilman Dave Thune, ask Chief Harrington, Dawkins and others. :)
All these people who profess to be supporting a better living standard for the poor have issues with their homes.
Bottom line the dumb fucks of city government found a back door to circumvent civil rights and rid the city of renters they deemed undesirable. And in doing so they victimized hundreds of innocent citizens.
Say what you will Eric, most of us in political circles think you gave Debbie Montgomery bad advice.
Say what you will Eric, most of us in political circles think you gave Debbie Montgomery bad advice.
Its tough for me to be ethical and defend myself on this one. So, why don't you tell the board EXACTLY what advice I gave that 'most of you in political circles' think was bad.
What was it?
Call delegates and talk with them?
Door knock the neighborhood?
Emphasize the promises she kept by growing the employment opportunities and commercial tax base in her Ward?
That formed the basis of a 27 page strategy. Where is it you people in 'political circles' find the bad advice?
That wouldn't be the same political circle that supports subpar housing for the poor is it?
Stand up and tell us what you know Bob-O.
Eric
We have real emotional issues here, and in our council meetings, those emotions spill over into anger for many.
Especially when they are confronted by a terminally abusive toady who smears, demonizes and attacks ad hominem first and asks questions later.
(That'd be you, Eric. I hear things. From DFLers).
That wouldn't be the same political circle that supports subpar housing for the poor is it?
No, toady.
It's the circle that thinks landlords are entitled to due process, the rule of law and fairness, just like everyone else.
DSI acts like every organ of government does in one-party states like Mao's China, Pol Pot's Camobodia, Hitler's Germany or Coleman's Saint Paul; they make up the laws as they go along, confident that a one-party governmetn with no checks and balances will cover their asses.
I'm an honest, law-abiding, taxpaying citizen who has always loved Saint Paul. But in the past three years, I have had enough. I'm leaving this city the first chance I get. I hate this government. I hate the corruption.
And I hate the fact that ostensibly bright competent people like you, Eric, through either stupidity or just plain evil, defend this corrupt, autocratic government.
The ol' everything sucks I'm leaving St Paul. You speak about the last three years, what has changed is that the Republicans broke this country with their spending and refusal to enforce legislation. Pawlenty decided to not follow through on the state's commitment to cities and Coleman decided not to play financial shell game with our budget and actually pay now for our services that Kelly and N. Coleman dismissed.
If you really spoke with any 'DFLers' you wouldn't admit what you heard. You'd know that I don't fit in any 'circle' within my party. I'm not in, or out of the clique and I don't weld any power.
I wish I knew this Eric you speak of, he sounds interesting. Its not me.
Now, don't let the door hit you on the way out. There are several roads leading out of St Paul. Let me know if you need help finding one.
Bob, still waiting for that bad advice you and others in 'political circles' think I gave Debbie. Since its so well-known I thought you give us just one, one example.
You weren't just shooting your mouth off without knowing the facts, were you?
Eric
And I hate the fact that ostensibly bright competent people like you, Eric, through either stupidity or just plain evil, defend this corrupt, autocratic government.
No. No I don't. I've got years of a record on here. Go back and bring us one example of me defending corruption. Don't rely on memory, pull it and paste it here.
You say the government is autocratic and one party rule yet, you and Bob both come back with information on DFLers given to you by other DFlers. Sounds like it may have one dominant party but, many ldeals within that party as well as among our elected officials. There is not a groupthink reaction in this town. They all may go through the DFL to get where they want to go but, they govern and work within their own set-up. You proved that yourself.
Eric
Say what you will Eric, most of us in political circles think you gave Debbie Montgomery bad advice.
Still waiting to hear what that was? Exactly what advice was bad?
Time to stop shooting off your mouth over stuff you have no idea about.
Eric
My answer to Eric Reposted from another thread
Eric said;
Still waiting for you to back up some of the claims Bob. You use big words like 'lie', where it at? We know Bill Dahn is unable to control himself and not responsible for his actions but, you are a functional adult.
You got until Tuesday then I'll go after your predictions over this mayors race. Only two Mayoral Candidates will make it through. After that, you'll be claiming that November voters will make change.
My response;
Eric, I never made any predictions here concerning the mayoral race. I must have confused you in a private email. In my email I was referring to the police department getting a house cleaning.
I will make a prediction for you. Of coarse Bill will not get enough votes to be elected a block leader let alone mayor. And like you said Chris and Eva will come out on top of the primaries. SO I agree with you on this issue "somewhat".
However, one thing you haven't considered in all of your statistical data is the unpredictability of your opposition. You have no clue what the Republicans will do before the elections in November and you have no clue what property rights advocates are planning to do. It is going to be fun and very interesting Eric.
No as to your other challenge. I'm not sure what you are looking for. If I was to share my conversation here with everyone concerning Montgomery's election, I'd be breaching my trust with the folks I had the conversation with. I would also be putting them in jeopardy of retaliation from you and your DFL strangle hold buddies. It is a well know fact the hardliners of the DFL are vindictive. Folks within your own party fear you guys. Nobody in your party wants to be ostracized just for disagreeing with you and the other mover and shakers of your party.
I'm not sure how I could put into words what I have been told, without you figuring out who said it.
Eric said;
However it cannot be denied that they work with the poor and that bothers politicians on the Right, landlords and those who care about corporations over people.
My response;
Eric, landlords like programs that help the poor. The programs help these folks pay their rent. You never miss an oppurtunity to bash a landlord. You don't have an unlawful detainer by chance do you? :)
10:06 AM
Eric,
Oh, so now you blame the "Republicans?"
Good lord, man, it's like arguing with Sharon Anderson!
I'm sorry, toady. This city's lot was cast when it became a one-party town. One-party rule BREEDS corruption and abuse - and it grew here in bumper lots.
And people like you, Eric, benefit directly or indirectly from it, which is why you smear and defame and name-call like the sleazy little bitch you are.
I may leave Saint Paul - and if I do, it'll be my win and this communist dictatorship's loss, and yours is the only ass that'll get kicked.
Question for you, Eric, since you're so embroiled in the system: does Lantry wear a strap-on, and what position does she make you take?
Eric, schmeric. We're gonna call you "nancyboy". Or maybe Kathy's Klown.
Inconsequential Booty,
You pull this out of that same butt? How do I benefit again?
You all claim there is conspiracy, I ask for details because, I know there isn't. No one responds with proof, just attacks. Clear sign of being caught full of bs.
In one breath Bob is talking about the DFL is corrupt, the city is corrupt, then in the next breath he says most DFLers don't like what's going on, many of them are friends of his, and most employees are good workers.
At one time, over and over, I tried to get them to focus on the individual employees, that way if you get conviction after conviction, then you got proof. Of course, that means someone would have to come up with names and proof. Two things that don't work here.
I was also the only one at one time pointing out the corrupt individuals with police, parks and rec, and even the fire department. That didn't go over so well, as each of those departments severely took care of their problems. See that would go against a conspiracy.
And now you come around with more baseless accusations. I didn't elect everyone. I vote for one council member (I'm not in Kathy's Ward). You, Bob and the rest have a problem with the people of Saint Paul. They are the ones who make the decision on who will be elected.
You also may have a problem with the local government experts and Bond Rating Houses like Moody's and Standard and Poor's. They have all put St Paul in the category of sound leadership and investments. Mayor Coleman was even recognized for his innovation during hard times.
So please, just leave. As usual, we'll clean the place up after you.
Eric
In one breath Bob is talking about the DFL is corrupt, the city is corrupt,
"nope bob didn't say that"
"some of you"
then in the next breath he says most DFLers don't like what's going on,
"well spoken"
many of them are friends of his, and most employees are good workers.
"couldn't agree more"
This comment has been removed by the author.
Eric,
Swiftee asked for programs that worked.
You answered: Head Start and the Pell Grant.
Leaving aside the money spent on the program, Head Start arguably does more harm than good, except for cases of children have nearly no parental influence at home - and the program needn't be nearly as big as it is to cover that constituency (but of course it will be; bureaucracy must expand itself!)
Pell Grants had the dual "unintended" consequences of devaluing the college degree (a BA is scarcely a qualification anymore) and making education unaffordable to those who weren't either wealthy or poor enough to get unlimited grant. It's Econ101; if you pump free money into a system with a limited supply of product (college seats), prices will rise. And so college has gotten more expensive; college costs vastly more as a percentage of annual income today than it did in 1920.
So no, Eric, you didn't provide examples of programs that "worked". To your credit, you did provide examples of programs that were not complete failures at their stated mission - but the "unintended" consequences far outweighed those primary benefits.
Kudos for trying, though.
Hmmm, a long answer to say that Head Start is very successful- which it is, and Pell Grants made college education too available.
What a dick you are.
Eric
Eric,
You are a lying tool.
My post pointed out that Head Start is largely a waste, and that Pell Grants helped college UNAFFORDABLE and UNAVAILBLE to the middle class.
You addiction to giggle middle-school word games and your penchant for talking big and insulting your betters while hiding online indicates that you perhaps are as big a prick as legend around Saint Paul has it.
I like to think the best of people, so I didn't buy it. Perhaps I was wrong.
You almost got it except, I don't hide online.
Most people know where to find me over here on the East Side or when I venture to other parts of the city.
Don't know about that reputation except to say, "boo-hoo". I work in politics. People not liking you comes with the territory.
I'm going out to Governor's or Vogels for a couple- join me.
Eric
20 million children have graduated from the Head Start program.
These children have been better fed and nourished, have been properly immunized, have received appropriate medical care, have had visual and hearing assessment and treatment so that they arrive at school ready to learn; and they are less likely to need special education or to repeat a grade, representing a significant savings to the community.
Head Start graduates have lower delinquency rates and go on to higher education more frequently than nongraduates.
Head Start Success links
Sounds like a real failure.
Pell Grants have helped more poor go to college. you argue that when poor and the disadvantaged go to school, it lowers the value of the education. Same argument made by the segregationists. You should listen to yourself sometimes. I think you would even shock yourself at the degree you're willing to go to disagree with me.
You know what else cost more at a percentage of income than it did in 1920? EVERYTHING!
Eric
Well, kudos to those 20 million.
Of course the government funding that went into Head Start for those 20 million kids woudl probably have funded traditional pretschool and the same services for 30 million through the private sector - but if government doesn't run it, it can't count, now, can it?
There's also the little issue of Head Start being basically an early extnension of the public school system that is a complete failure already; that is in fact a racist attempt to keep minorities in their places. It's like getting an extra push in spiralling down the drain.
Keep confirming Buck that you don't know what you're talking about. It would be nice to you post some stat or facts that don't smell like your breakfast.
Private schools can choose who they take as students, public schools do not. So, kids who have no social upbringing, never heard english, learning disorders, mental disorders and other personal problems are in public schools and we are obligated by law, to try our best to educate them.
The funding formula tied to property taxes is also a choice that have negative effects in urban areas and poorer areas.
But, to say that public schools are a failure ignores the tens of millions of kids that go through it, succeed in college and contribute nicely to society. But, you told us already what you think about too many people going to college. Its a bad thing, right?
Eric
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