From The Bowels Of E-Democracy "The West Publishing Building"
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posted by Bob at Sunday, August 30, 2009
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Sunday, August 30, 2009
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22 Comments:
From: John Krenik Date: Aug 28 13:52 UTC Short link
Hi All,
FYI - In the paper today, titled "Ramsey County attorney objects to plan to
relocate offices to building eyed by commissioners"
Link: http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_13219512
This is NUTS!!
The West Publishing Building was GIVEN to the county, FREE and clear. This building was right across the street from the courthouse and had a tunnel for
access in bad weather. The West Publishing Building consolidated county government services into an "one stop shop" that made for efficient county government.
Ramsey County spent MILLIONS renovating this building, now they propose to BUY a building six blocks away from the court house and will have to PAY $20.7
million plan to buy the building from LNR Partners, remodel it and relocate 600 workers to this new facility. The county has already had to purchase other buildings and have moved employees across the river and far away from the
courthouse.
Ramsey County commissioners please tell me how this is efficient and proper use of $20.7 MILLION county dollars to purchase the Metro Square Building at East Seventh and Jackson streets, about a half-mile by foot from the County
Courthouse?
Why the closed meeting, as this should be open to the public?
This is what is WRONG with our governmental leaders today. In the midst of a recession, they spend our hard-earned money ($20.7 MILLION in closed session
without public input) like it is water and NO Planning for the future. They had an excellent location in the West Publishing Building that brought together
county services into one building across the street from the courthouse. Five years down the road the Ramsey County commissioners will say we need to
consolidate these units of county government into a convenient location next to the courthouse.
From: Mike Fratto Date: Aug 28 15:18 UTC Short link
I certainly cannot speak for the issues related to the move to Metro Square. I can say that the County has had issues with the old West Publishing building
for years.
John claims the building was given to Ramsey County. That is true, I guess. It was the move by West to stick it to the County when they couldn't get its way and moved to the suburbs.
Now, as I said, I don't know what the issues are regarding the move to Metro Square. I do know a lot about Metro Square. I think it makes a lot of sense as
it relates to the public being served. I also don't know how often the County Attorney needs to go to the St. Paul Court House for its hearings and trials
etc. I do know that there are other locations that already exist where these same employees need to travel to for court proceedings. Why would walking a few
blocks be so difficult.
I am interested in the "closed" meeting issue. Is this just a charge by the County Attorney because she is seeking higher office and this gets her name in
the paper? Or did the County Commissioners break Minnesota law by meeting in closed session to discuss issues that should have been discussed in public?
I would doubt this happened, but I have been wrong before. On the other hand, the fact that John picked up the issue only means he is also seeking office
again. I wonder how much of this would stick to the proverbial wall is all the information on the subject was made public.
I think we are just witnessing another situation that allows officer seekers to
get their name out there.
Mike Fratto
St. Paul, MN
Please help those who don't get enough to eat.
http://oyh.org
http://hungersolutions.org
The future depends more on
what we do between now and then
Than what we did in the past.
From: John Krenik Date: Aug 28 16:19 UTC Short link
Mr. Fratto,
I will use my second and final post of the day to respond to you.
1. If you notice, I haven't posted here much (only one or two posts in the last 12 months). This comes from the vicious attacks last year.
2. I brought this up because it is a major St. Paul issue and effects a lot of St. Paul residents.
3. The issue of dividing up county offices from a central location instead of having a one stop shop is CRAZY, not to mention at the cost of lost of money. The county has spent millions on the West Publishing building and it is foolish to now disband these offices throughout the city.
4. I brought up a very important St. Paul issue that effects many in St. Paul, not only citizens that use the Ramsey County offices located in the West Publishing building, but as a property owner who is paying for the wasteful
spending actions of our county government in the midst of a recession.
5. My intention was purely to discuss the issues involving St. Paul as this the intention of this forum or so I thought. Would you like me to go into the motives of other posters here for political gain or their agenda? No, I am not
going to stoop to that level.
6. The beauty of our country is that we CAN discuss the issues concerning our city, state and country without being locked up. Now for poop being left in my
truck when I was posting about Bill "Chief" Finney, that is another thing.
Thanks and have a nice day.
Sincerely,
John Krenik
Highland Park, St. Paul, Minnesota
From: Joe Nathan Date: Aug 28 16:44
As a person who values free speech and discussion, along with wise and
careful use of public funds, I welcome Mr. Krenik's questions and would love to hear people's responses.
Joe Nathan
Highland Park
From: Gloria Bogen Date: Aug 28 17:00
The west publishing building hasn't been a one stop shop for at least a couple of years. The county moved property, elections, maybe taxes, and other things
OUT of the west building and over to the west side (the best side) on plato between Wabasha and Ohio years ago.
Gloria Bogen
West side = Best side
From: John Krenik
To:
Subject: [SPIF] West Publishing Building
Sent: Aug 28, 2009 11:21 AM
Mr. Fratto,
I will use my second and final post of the day to respond to you.
1. If you notice, I haven't posted here much (only one or two posts in the last 12 months). This comes from the vicious attacks last year.
2. I brought this up because it is a major St. Paul issue and effects a lot of St. Paul residents.
3. The issue of dividing up county offices from a central location instead of having a one stop shop is CRAZY, not to mention at the cost of lost of money.
The county has spent millions on the West Publishing building and it is foolish to now disband these offices throughout the city.
4. I brought up a very important St. Paul issue that effects many in St. Paul, not only citizens that use the Ramsey County offices located in the West Publishing building, but as a property owner who is paying for the wasteful
spending actions of our county government in the midst of a recession.
5. My intention was purely to discuss the issues involving St. Paul as this the intention of this forum or so I thought. Would you like me to go into the motives of other posters here for political gain or their agenda? No, I am not
going to stoop to that level.
6. The beauty of our country is that we CAN discuss the issues concerning our city, state and country without being locked up. Now for poop being left in my
truck when I was posting about Bill "Chief" Finney, that is another thing.
Thanks and have a nice day.
Sincerely,
John Krenik
Highland Park, St. Paul, Minnesota
From: Mike Fratto Date: Aug 29 03:08 UTC Short link
John raises some points that need responding to.
Its unfortunate that someone thinks members of this forum have made vicious attacks on other participants. Although, I do understand how someone might feel
that responding to a post is vicious when they misrepresent facts and are called on it.
West Publishing has never been a County one stop center. However, the point of the original post was the Pioneer Press article based on a complaint by Susan Gaertner the County Attorney, My response related only to that article.
Some allegations were made in the article and attributed as true by Mr. Krenik. I merely stated that I doubted the County Board made a decision in closed session as argued by the article and Mr. Krenik. I said I doubted the board
would break the law by not holding an opening meeting.
Finally, I stated a fact. Both Ms Gaertner and Mr. Krenik are seeking political office and the issue raised seems to be something to get free publicity regarding an issue that was reported but, apparently, not investigated by the
paper.
John can raise his issue all he wants. Frankly I am tired of allegations made by politicians that do not have a basis of fact. In the case regarding moving
County Attorney to Metro Square, a decision may have been made. I do not question questioning this decision. I don't think John questioned the decision.
He made some statements about the "gift" of the West Building and the money paid to renovate the building. Then he made a leap and claims the decision allegedly made by the County Board was unwarranted because of the money spent.
Neither I nor, I suspect Mr. Krenik, know the issues that affected the decsion made by the Board. Yet he alleges, as a politician does, that they are spending our tax money irresponsibly.
Mike Fratto
St. Paul, MN
From: Jan Carr Date: Aug 29 03:40
This is another one of those issues where your view is much influenced by which
side of the political isle you are on.
According to the article in today's Strib, the Commissioners were influenced by
these factors: 1) the Metro Square building would cost $1 million a year LESS to operate, and 2) Vacating the old West PUb building would allow the County to
sell the building and get it back on the tax rolls.
The Strib also reported: 1) the matter was indeed debated and decided by the Commissioners in a closed session, and will be formally voted on this coming Tuesday, and 2) RC Attorney Gaertner was not consulted prior to the decision.
Commissioner Reinhardt attributed this to the speed with which a decision had to be made (no mention of why a quick decision was necessary), but said the
Board would seek an accommodation with Gaertner that would allow her 350 employees convenient access to the court house. The travel difference between the two buildings is apparently 5 minutes vs. 15 minutes.
Mr. Krenik would like us to believe the Commissioners are deliberately making careless and irresponsible decisions. But as is usually the case, none of us in
this discussion, including Mr. Krenik, know the background surrounding this action.
From my side of the isle, it appears they are trying to make prudent decisions that will save all of us weary tax payers a few dollars in the long run
(assuming the West building can be sold to a private developer).
From: Chuck Repke Date: Aug 29 03:50
Let's start at the beginning... West Publishing got a 15 million dollar tax credit to "give" a building to the county that it couldn't find a buyer for at 5 million. It then sold the furniture to the county for 5 million dollars. That was the deal that was nuts. Because what happen was that the county moved into a non-functional building. So now, almost twenty years
later (yes the deal occurred in the nineties, West announced they were leaving town the day 35E was completed).
The issue the county attorney has isn't moving out of West, it is moving into Metro, so far away from the court house.
So, the plan has been for some time that the county get rid of the dog of a building that was not marketable when they were "gifted" it.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
From: Rick Mons Date: Aug 29 05:23
John Krenik asks:
> Why the closed meeting, as this should be open to the public?
If the County Board is holding a "negotiations session" to identify a position on purchasing or leasing a facility, it's permitted to go into "executive session." Similarly, other public bodies (e.g. school boards,
city councils, etc) are able to discuss current or prospective negotiations with employee bargaining units, review personnel actions, etc.
It's one of the exceptions to the Open Meeting law's requirements and makes a lot of sense. It would be pretty tough to have effective negotiations if
the party with whom you're negotiating is able to attend your strategy session.
Rick Mons as forum participant
From: jimbuscher Date: Aug 29 14:04
Wasn't Opus marketing two new mixed use high rises on this site? It didn't get off the ground because they couldn't land an anchor tenant. I would've liked
to have seen the city/county step in and be their anchor. I can't see anyone (developer) wise stepping in to buy this old building. I thought I'd heard
rumors the city was looking to demolish this building and the old jail site as well, to spur efforts to build new towers here.
From: Erik Hare Date: Aug 29 15:49
Chuck said:
> So, the plan has been for some time that the county get rid of the dog of a
> building that was not marketable when they were "gifted" it.
Chuck is right to focus on the West Building in this whole discussion, because it's very relevant. It's not so much a building as a series of warehouses
built by the railroad tracks that was converted over time to office space.
It's a labyrinth of odd floors and tiny spaces that has never been all that useful. When the County picked up the building, many of us in the neighborhood
(I live 4 blocks from the thang) were concerned about what was going to happen and cornered Com. Hunt about the plans for the structures. She told us that
the County felt it was forced to act to secure the location for a future development, and we bought that argument at the time. West was certainly not going to give it to the City after the contentious Shepard Road battle, which
they lost. The County was the only hope for the building.
Along with the jail, this series of buildings stretches along the old bluff line from the Wabasha Bridge. There is a decent amount of space under Kellogg
Boulevard, as the eastbound lanes are a kind of bridge appended on to the bluff from just after Eagle Street almost to Wabasha. Most of it hardly rates as Class "C" office space, full of tiny rooms without windows and immovable
walls. It would be expensive to tear down, as the walls are built to warehouse specifications and are very thick,. But for all its trouble, the location is
absolutely amazing. Anything that goes there will have a major effect on the city one way or the other.
So the County took the structures. I don't know how much was put into
renovating them, but it was clearly a desperate attempt to make something useful out of this White Elephant. It appears to have ultimately failed, and
the County is moving elsewhere. That may make a lot of sense in and of itself, but we still have no idea what is to become of the West Building.
Meanwhile, I think Krenik is right to point out that the County has become a major player in land in and around Downtown at great expense. It might not be
an issue if it were not for the fact that the most prime piece of land they have, West, is the hardest one to make any good use of. I can't object to them
finding a different building that works well, but at some point we have to confront the Elephant.
The real estate market isn't going to turn around soon, so there is no reason to start making grand plans. The cost of doing something with the West site is
likely to be outrageous, but the potential payoff in a decent market could transform Saint Paul. It's probably behind the Pioneer/Endicott and the Great
Northern Building as a signal for any major reinvestment in the city, so any short-term fix is likely to be for a longer haul than anyone is comfortable
with.
Thus, there are two issues here: What does the County need, and what is the West Building good for? The County appears to have come to the conclusion that
the West Building is not going to suit their needs and the attempt to make it fit was a waste. I can accept that. But having the County as a significant
player Downtown concerns me largely because I don't see how any of this fits into a long-term strategy for Saint Paul.
We have time to think this through, and we have the excess capacity to try some interesting urban experiments. If the County needs to house its workers
someplace useful to them, they can go about doing that - but I'd like to know that something, anything is up to use what they have to the benefit of our City. I don't think that's a lot to ask.
I offer, for my own perspective, a series of four essays from some time ago.
It's not much, but I would hope that a conversation along these lines might get people thinking about how we can do to turn the difficult properties from
problems into something amazing:
http://erikhare.wordpress.com/2008/04/23/urban-core/
http://erikhare.wordpress.com/2008/04/25/urban-core-lessons/
http://erikhare.wordpress.com/2008/04/28/urban-core-new-urbanism/
http://erikhare.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/urban-core-life/
Meanwhile, we have a lot of buildings on the County dole. Any ideas?
From: Joe Nathan Date: Aug 29 16:08 UTC Short link
Here's a bit more of the history of the West building, from a person who was on the River Front Commission appointed by Mayor Latimer, which dealt
with West when it still owned the building.
The owner of West Publishing also was on the Riverfront Commission. He asked for permission to build up several stories, to make the building more useful to the company. There were deep divisions on the Riverfront
Commission about this.
Some of us felt that building up was ok because the building already
blocked views of the river, and there were wonderful views of the river in the very next several blocks east, across from the hotel, stretching down
almost to the Post Office. This was open space on the south side of Kellogg Blvd, which provided a great view of the river, and open space for people to walk, sit, eat lunch, etc.
Unfortunately, in my view, the majority of the Riverfront Commission was composed of people who did not like the owner of West and did not want to allow him to build up. Several of us felt that preventing him from building
up would mean West would leave the city. But West opponents were ok with that. It was a nasty debate.
Ultimately, a deeply divided River Front Commission voted to oppose
allowing West to build up. So West did want it said it would do if not
allowed to build up, and moved to the suburbs.
As a person who considers himself a Paul Wellstone type progressive, I thought the RiverFront Commission was dominated by people who did not recognize the value of strong locally owned business. So St Paul lost a major employer. And the view of the river remained blocked by the building...a classic lose/lose scenario.
I don't know what to think about the County vacating the building. But I would like to hear more from Ramsey County leaders about the rational for what they are doing.
Joe Nathan
Highland Park
.
From: Charlie Swope Date: Aug 29 16:50
I don't believe there was ever any chance that West would have remained at the Kellogg Blvd. location no matter what the city did or didn't do. One has only
to look at the facility they now occupy in Eagan to realize that the St. Paul location simply could not satisfy the company's business needs. Printing, warehousing and computer operations had already been relocated to the Eagan
location and it was only a matter of time before the remaining editorial and other operations followed. The '90's began a period of explosive growth in the
company's business and that required more office space than could have been provided in St. Paul. Just taking the office building that now exists in Eagan,
it's impossible to imagine that amount of space being available anywhere near downtown, especially considering the acres of parking space the company always
insisted on providing for employees.
From: Joe Nathan Date: Aug 29 20:07
There was at that point one controlling interest in West. John Nasseff strongly wanted West to stay in St Paul - specifically on the North Side of the river. This is from Twin Cities.com, May 6, 2007 re John Nasseff, who was on the Riverfront Commission and was at the time the majority
stockholder of West.
" John Nasseff walks past Rice Park during a morning amble through St. Paul in late December. The 83-year-old multimillionaire philanthropist walks
daily around downtown, where he lives, or the West Side, where he grew up as the sixth son of Lebanese immigrants.
Nasseff dropped out of school in ninth grade to help support his family but never forgot his parents' lessons about the value of hard work, giving to
others and never wasting what you have. An efficiency expert years before anyone held such a job title, he parlayed his disdain for wastefulness into an astounding career.He began unloading boxcars for West Publishing.He retired as vice president, board member and major stockholder of the
company shortly after its sale in 1996 to Thomson Corp. for $3.4 billion.
He was the major stockholder in West, and he was on the Riverfront
Commission. He The person who had the controlling interest was on the Riverfront
Commission. It wasn't Opperman.
I remember the discussion very well and the first question was whether the Commission would allow the existing building to go up higher. The majority
voted no.
George Latimer, a good friend, for whom I "Managed" two campaigns,
encouraged the Commission to try to work things out with West. The majority of Commission members refused to allow a build up.
The city tried to offer some land on the south side of the river, but
another developer who controlled that area said "no."
West had made clear there strong preference was on the north side of the river, where they already owned property.
After being rejected by the Riverfront Commission, Nasseff announced West was moving out.
Despite this rejection which deeply pained him, Nasseff has donated millions to various projects in St. Paul. Again, from Twincities.com
Nasseff prefers a low profile.But his legacy to St. Paul, the city he
loves, has never been more apparent.After initially refusing friends' solicitations, he became the lead donor for a new $25 million heart hospital, now known as the John Nasseff Heart Center.It opened in July 2000
adjacent to United Hospital.Next, he provided half the money for a nearby $10 million parking ramp and the Milton M. Hurwitz ExerCare Fitness Center, which opened in 2002.
He didn't stop there.The $26 million John Nasseff Specialty Center was completed last year.A $15 million neuroscience institute is scheduled for
completion this year.
Joe Nathan
Highland Park
From: Jan Carr Date: Aug 29 23:47
Now that this topic has been visited by knowledge people who know what they're
talking about, let me ask these questions:
1) Does the old West building have any significant market value as is Or should it just be torn down, and the site then sold to a private developer as a
clean slate for a better, more interesting purpose?
That is, if the building couldn't be sold originally for more than $5mil, would a tear down make sense from a long-term point of view, inasmuch as whatever takes it place would presumably contribute significantly over time to
property tax revenues?
2) Whatever happened to the old County jail facility?
3) Mr. Krenik's political posturing aside, what's the insider view on the the
wisdom of the Commissioner's decision about Metro Square?
From: John Krenik Date: 01:57 UTC Short link
Ms. Carr,
Sorry no political posturing here, I just simply brought up a St. Paul issue.
I was concerned how taxpayer money was being spent and I felt that this was a community issue and concern. I didn't mention of any political party in my post, not did I post a reference to anyone I am running against. Just like many here, I am concerned very much about St. Paul. I was born here and I am raising my family here. I like St. Paul very much. Just like you, I can bring up a St. Paul issues here on SPIF. Should I assume just because you bring up
an issue it is an attack against the Independent or Republican Party I simply brought up the West Publishing Building situation?to start a St. Paul topic, nothing more, nothing less.
I have reread my post and I simply can't see where it was political in nature, I just wanting more fiscal responsibility from the Ramsey County Commissioners in this time of recession where families are trying to make every
dollar count. I want the Ramsey County Commissioners to do the same with our tax dollars, that is all.
I have stayed away from SPIF since last year when I brought up the St. Paul issue of the Green Stairs and I?received some very vicious?comments from SPIF members both posted on SPIF and in private emails.
Just because I bring up an issue, doesn't mean I am trying to trash the DFL Party. I have some very good friends in the DFL party. I simply can't help it
if all offices in St. Paul and all but one on the Ramsey County Board are held by the DFL. My questioning of the use of taxpayer money was my only concern and it was not an attack on your particular political party. The last time I checked, we are still free to express our opinions, especially when it concerns
how our tax dollars are spent or at least I still thought so. If I missed something or there has?been a CHANGE and we are now not allowed to question the
actions of our elected leaders?please let me know.
Sincerely,
John Krenik
Highland Park, St. Paul, Minnesota
From: Mike Fratto Date: 12:36
John, I just read this post and you say you don't know how anyone could have taken your first post as political. Do you really think we are that blind? You
are a candidate for public office. There have been times when some other person who might be a candidate for office makes a statement that you disagree with
and you jump all over the comment as being political.
As someone who has constantly criticized city and county government you can't now pull back and claim your comments merely want to bring about discussion.
If you would have asked questions about the decision rather than making a blanket statement about how government wastes taxpayer's money maybe we would
believe your argument.
Mike Fratto
St. Paul, MN
Hi All,
I had several request for this topic.
Knowing many of you are boycotting E-Democracy, I took the time to copy and paste the entire thread here.
Right on to Copy and Paste, Dave Orrick is on vacation til Sept10, here is the PP Article that E-Dem notice of If the PP article doesn't come up go to search engine and type in Susan Gaertner Courthouse Spelling has to be accurate
http://www.twincities.com/ci_13219512?IADID=Search-www.twincities.com-www.twincities.com
I can't figure out what Krenik sees as the plus side of participating on that moonbat echo chamber.
The only legitimate reason left to belong to edemocracy is to mock the goofballs that think they're having an intelligent discussion.
Why are we even discussing a topic from E-Democracy, its a waste of time and effort. In other words, who gives a shit!
Swiftee,
I thought I would give it another shot and I was WRONG!
Both posted responses and in private emails from some on the SPIF list have turned out to be really interesting. I could say the sky is blue and I would get accused of bashing the DFL.
It have been a long time since you and I talked. I hope all is well with you!
Take care,
John Krenik
"Why are we even discussing a topic from E-Democracy, its a waste of time and effort. In other words, who gives a shit!"
Things slow and we need a laugh. With a host as versatile as Bob if there is no news then he makes the news. While not exactly news as I'm sure Swiftee would agree, these idiots at Edem are very entertaining. So hats off to Bob for going on the hunt to find something to show us just how smart we really are compared to the others.
Hiya, John.
I'm fit as a fiddle, cockier than a banty rooster and still kicking moonbat ass every chance I get.
Good luck with the campaign.
Hey Swiftee,
Don't forget Nutty as a Fruitcake.
John, stop your whining. Your problem is not the whole anti-DFL thing. You are just a sad sack that believes public office will give your life meaning. You seem disingenuous whenever you write.
Save your crying about the off-line emails you get too. Here and there, publicly and in private I have had the most vile, racist, ignorant shit thrown at me. Whatever. Its a reflection of your opponent more than yourself- unless you let it.
Truth is, teaching is more noble than being an elected official. That is what you do right? I'm leery of anyone who seems to want to serve so bad that they run for any and everything over and over. That goes for some of my own brethren. Those kind of people usually have the interest of no one but themselves in mind.
Eric
Yeah, and you voted for the Fresh Prince of Bill Ayers, whose cabinet includes:
Liars and Cheats (The Tim Geithner Corps)
Malthusian crackpots (The Paul Ehrlich Dept. of Genocide)
Communists (The Van Jones International Brigade)
and a Machiavellian Chief of Staff!
So, how's that Hopey/Changey™ thing going for you, anyways?
HAHAHA!
Ramsey County OKs $4 million deal to purchase St. Paul building
I think Eric tucked his tail on that one swiftee.
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