St. Paul City Council splits bitterly, allows house rehab
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posted by Bob at Thursday, March 05, 2009
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51 Comments:
Work allowed despite illegal bank sale
By Dave Orrick
dorrick@pioneerpress.com
Posted: 03/05/2009 12:01:00 AM CST
In an uncommonly bitter debate, a split St. Paul City Council narrowly voted Wednesday to give a break to a rehabber who bought a vacant bank-owned house.
A series of 4-3 votes on the matter exposed strong emotions over the vexing issue of how best to deal with the threatened housing stock languishing in various states of vacancy and foreclosure.
At issue was the plight of Andy Dick, a 28-year-old with a degree in biomedical engineering who has spent several years buying, fixing up and either renting or selling vacant homes in the city's Dayton's Bluff and Payne-Phalen neighborhoods.
The home in question was a single-family house at 606 Bush Ave., which Dick purchased Nov. 26 from a Florida bank.
By all available accounts, it appears the bank should never have been allowed to sell the home. The city had declared the building a nuisance, and under an ordinance that became effective in September, such a home can't be sold until the owner has fixed the laundry list of safety and code problems.
Thus, Dick found himself in limbo: He owned the home but was technically unable to fix it, even though he had a financing plan and a proven track record of acceptable rehabs.
The intent of the ordinance — among the most stringent in the state at the time — was to prevent such properties from being unloaded onto unaware or unqualified home flippers who would fail to fix up the home, leaving it to linger. Council Member Dan Bostrom, whose East Side 6th Ward has more such homes than any other, championed the ordinance.
Bostrom said Dick shouldn't be allowed to rehab the building and supported demolition in 15 days if the bank didn't save the house. Council Members Dave Thune and Lee Helgen backed Bostrom.
On such issues, it's extremely rare for council members to not defer to a colleague on a specific property within that member's ward, but Council President Kathy Lantry and Council Members Melvin Carter III, Russ Stark and Pat Harris dug in against Bostrom.
Carter said his own house is surrounded by vacant homes he wants to see fixed up. "I have to tell you, I'd be livid if I heard that a developer with the means was prevented from fixing up one of those homes," he said.
Bostrom warned that making an exception — the first time the new ordinance was tested — threatened to undercut its strength.
Lantry, who is familiar with some of Dick's rehab work, insisted Bostrom's attempt to punish the bank would, in fact, only punish Dick. The four-member majority voted to give Dick 180 days to fix the house — the standard period for such a building.
Bostrom was incensed.
In full sarcasm, he dressed down the four: "Thanks a lot. I really appreciate it. When you have one like that in your neighborhood that's tearing your heart out, good luck!"
Afterward, Dick said he was relieved and confident he could get the work done.
Hi All,
The following council members cast a vote for the end of their career on the city council!
Council Members Dave Thune and Lee Helgen backed Bostrom.
I want you 3 to keep right on screwing with the lives of citizens in this city. The support among your voter base is deteriorating. The evidence is in Internet forums and newspapers across Saint Paul. You will be lucky if you get a job as door man at the Saint Paul Hotel.
There is 2 bars in town that have a picture of one of these guys hung on the wall and they throw darts at it. :-)
WOW! What can I say about you guys?
President Kathy Lantry and Council Members Melvin Carter III, Russ Stark and Pat Harris dug in against Bostrom.
Please, will you four reconsider the vacant housing policies. Maybe we could start a screening process to allow fellas, and gals, like Andy Dick to buy up some of these homes.
A friend of mine who is a union carpenter/electrician, would like to buy one of these vacant homes and right now it isn't worth it to him. Why should a guy like my friend require contractor?
Chuck said on Jeffs post :
" If you fear those weaker than you, it says a great deal about you ".
Well Chuck, do I sence some weakness on the council ?
What does this say about those in opposition ?
Maybe the pressure from this blog and the financial impact in the RICO lawsuits is starting to impact the minds of the council.
Why should Bostrom be pissed ? it's the standard 180 days ?
Anyways, this guy is a flipper and
I would hold this guy to getting this home fixed in compliance with the laws of the city and state.
If he wants to fix it up to sell it, thats alright with me.
Someone has to do it.
That is business and the person who buys it from him will make good use of it.
But,rest assured, I would not cut him anymore slack than what the rules provide.
If the council has the authority under the laws to grant extensions, it should do so if their is a plan that will assure compliance by the deadline.
No special treatment for anyone. The rules and laws don't provide for it.
I like Bobs idea of the city approaching the unions for any carpenters, plumbers and electricians to buy these homes up.
Usually these guys have a decent income and if the city were to pass some laws providing for some tax write offs or tax exemptions,
we can save communitys and restore the historical quality of the city.
What the hell is a Florida bank doing owning property in St.Paul ?
No wonder its costing St.Paul maintinance to cut grass on these propertys.
If a bank out of state thinks it can get away with it, they haven't met our city council.
These banks better start stepping up to the plate and answering to the City of St.Paul when these homes fall in disrepair and are vacant.
These banks are just letting some of these properties go at the expence of the national economy.
Their the mother F-ERS that caused this crisis to begin with out of greed.
Jeff Matiatos
Well interesting to see Jeff take Bostrom's side on the issue...
Jeff said...
What the hell is a Florida bank doing owning property in St.Paul ?
That was who Bostrom was trying to get at with the ordinance. He was demanding that they not be able to continue to sit on these properties without repairing them.
And, Jeff said...
No wonder its costing St.Paul maintinance to cut grass on these propertys.
Damn straight! So, that is why the ordinance to cut their balls off and make them repair the property before they sell it.
And, Jeff said...
If a bank out of state thinks it can get away with it, they haven't met our city council.
Well, that was what Bostrom had tried to do. To put the full force and power of the City on them and develop a tough no sale of garbage policy.
And, Jeff said...
These banks better start stepping up to the plate and answering to the City of St.Paul when these homes fall in disrepair and are vacant.
Well, apparently not because Bob and others would like them to be able to leave them vacant and play pass the problem from one holder to another. In fact you could just create an LLC that you pass it back and forth to and never repair it if Bob has his way.
And Jeff said...
These banks are just letting some of these properties go at the expence of the national economy.
Sad that Bob wants to save them from being held accountable.
And Jeff said...
Their the mother F-ERS that caused this crisis to begin with out of greed.
Nice to see we are on the same side for once!
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
We may be aligned on this one Chuck, but my sentiments for landlords holds true.
The City of St.Paul approved landlords purchases of homes in the city knowing full well that alot of these homes needed work.
They led the landlord on and then when they found out who they were renting to, re-nigged and threw the books at em.
Now you guys say the landlords are slumlord flippers ?
Wrong, this is what I see happened and now that the landlords are gone, they are finally realizing that these out of reach banks don't give a shit and let these homes go and are getting bailed out.
Now you got some sym (pathetic) council members all in tears to let this Dick (Andy), catch a break ?
You didn't see this with the landlords in the RICO suits.
Not all landlords have loads of cash, but if not for them, the only landlord left in St.Paul would be PHA.
You still with me Chuck ?
Chuck ?
Jeff Matiatos
Holy Mother of All!!!
Jeff, you get it. I was supportive of Bostrom's bill from the beginning. I took crap from people who knew that it would make it difficult to unload crap property.
With he consolidation of banks and trading of these mortgages like baseball cards, I would wager that most mortgages in St Paul that were approved in the last eight years are held by out of state national banks and financial institutes. Including mine- the bastards.
Look at the three voting no, Bostrom who is the more conservative of the Council and Helgen and Thune who are more progressive in their politics. Its proof that party alignment is good for the election but, when it comes to governing, its all local. Helgen has Frogtown , North End and part of the East Side in his district. Bostrom has the Eastside includig Payne Phalen, Arlington Hills, and the Greater East side. Thune has the West side (technically the southside). These neighborhoods deal with this issue at a much greater rate than the others.
I've said it before, we all may belong to the same party but we don't go to the same parties.
Eric
Jeff...
Maybe...
All I am saying is that in a continuing effort to get a handle on the big boys that are sitting on these properties and play games with them Bostrom created an ordinance that said, fix them before you sell them.
Now, this small developer comes along that buys one from the bank after the ordinance is passed and says, don't force me to sue the bank, cut me (and the bank) some slack.
4 council members see that he does pretty good repair work and says cut him some slack.
3 council members say if you cut him some slack then Bob and the big boy banks will expect that everybody gets cut some slack.
Now, the 4 of them have no intention to cut slack to Bob's pal who will need a year or two to get his hobby project done. So, Bob is given this false hope that this one guy who has enough money to get this project done in 180 days means that some how handy men will be able to buy these dogs from the bank.
I don't know, Jeff are we still together?
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
You were doing so well Jeff. You lost me as usual, on your reasoning and not so analogous example.
Eric
My siding with the 3 that voted to stay the course meant that I supported fairness to all and not single out this guy for special treatment in excess of what the rules provide.
Bostrom didn't have to vote no to the 180 days if the 180 days was permissable anyways.
If in fact he did so to make a statement of treating all landlords and homeownwers the same, and at the same time threaten
the banks that hold the mortages, thats great.
I still think the council hasn't forgotten Steinhauser and the other
landlords who have irritated them severely.
This council wouldn't hesitate to turn these guys down even if rules had to be broken.
Theres two sides to the story though and there is not a whole lot I can do about that.
I just want these landlords who claim they have been persecuted to get their day in court, and get the compensation they deserve.
For whatever indignities they have suffered.
Jeff Matiatos
When this guy stands before the council because his home is about to get demolished, doesn't the bank send a represenative along to address the council because it holds the mortgage ?
Any lawsuit to prevent the city from demolishing the home would require all interested parties to be in court.
If I was a landlord, if I had invested signifigant money in the home ( my personal funds )and the city still wasn't satisfied, I would get with my financial institution that holds the mortgage and say you better get your ass out here and deal with this situation.
If the city is acting arbitrary, how can the bank not want to send its lawyer(s) ?
I would bring a copy of the TISH down to the council or to court and say look, I bought this home under the conditions cited in the TISH.
A building inspector came out and inspected the home prior to purchase.
Now the city is being unreasonable.
I would pass laws that require banks and financial institutions to be primary subjects to the wrath of local and state laws that demand abatement compliance.
Banks are the ones with all the fix em up money on these propertys and the homeowner is simply an arm of the true owner, the bank.
It would help if the banks were required to have in place, an escrow account for every mortage it has in the city.
Then, we wouldn't have the run ins with landlords who only pay the mortages.
Homeowners don't grow money on trees.
Wake up city ! It's the banks you want to go after.
Jeff Matiatos
#1. The policies that lock wise investors out of the market for these blighting vacant homes is a DUMB idea. PERIOD!
#2. Andy Dick was not aware this was a cat3 home. Andy Dick has a history of doing a GOOD job renovating homes in Saint Paul.
#3. This city council up until this fall out has been cooperatively unfair concerning housing code compliance. Predatory like in nature. I believe that COMMON SENSE prevailed over this issue with Andy Dick.
#4. Do we make exceptions for HRA and not Andy Dick?
One more thing!
This is a legitimate question I asked and Chuck spun the Merry Go Round on it.
Me:
A friend of mine who is a union carpenter/electrician, would like to buy one of these vacant homes and right now it isn't worth it to him. Why should a guy like my friend require contractor?
There would be nothing wrong with guys and gals like this setting up a bank account for repairs and you know it Chuck. The city council or code enforcement could see the debits for materials at any time.
The only thing you really oppose Chuck, is the competition for non-profit development companies.
Two things first Jeff:
You have it Jeff. That was the point of the ordinance. The banks are sitting on all of this crap and let's hold them responsible to get them repaired.
This bank knew or should have known when it sold the property what it was doing. This guy would clearly have a case against them and the where-with-all to sue.
The irony is that they cut him some slack because he had enough money to contract out the work. If he wouldn't have had the money, would the 4 have voted to let him move ahead? If not, then you would have had someone with little money lose the house and probably not have the resources to sue either.
Then Bob, what are you suggesting, escrowing all of the funds needed to make the repair in order to buy the building?
Really? You would be OK with that?
Put the monies in an account that if you don't have the project done in time the City can take the monies and contract out the work.
If your game for that I'm game. Buyer goes to Marsha with a repairs list estimate from a licensed contract, puts the money in an escrow account available to either the buyer to pay for work done on the house or the City to do it for him.
Sign me up as a supporter of the ordinance change Bob.
I doubt that you would have many takers.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Makes sense to me Chuck. Wise investors have the funds to do a project before they make a purchase.
I think this is common sense.
I have attended administrative hearings with home owners. Marsha often ask home owners if they have funds for repairs.
OK who stole Bob's picture of George Orwell and is pretending to be Bob Johnson.
Come on now, its not nice to fake being the owner of the Blog.
There is no way that Bob Johnson supports having people proposing to do rehabs of vacant buildings have to escrow the funds needed to do the projects.
So, just cut it out, your not being funny.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Well its like the banks to do this sort of crap.
Look at their lending practices that caused the housing crisis.
Not only did the banks know that people who couldn't afford a mortgage could be duped into signing one, ( taking into account the Government encouraged it ), but they seem not to care about the condition of the home so long as there is a nieve homeowner willing to buy it.
Banks are not in the business of fixing up homes with their money.
They want the homeowner to shell out all the cash for the repairs.
But all of the sudden a bank in Florida finds out the loan they made for a home in St.Paul they never saw, has serious deficiencies, once they realize it, its time to bail and let the whole country and the homeowner pay for it.
I see the city being caught in the middle trying to protect the integrity of the neighborhood and for safety.
I just see that St.Paul has abused the crisis to fulfill a different agenda in order to cleanse the city like what happened in louisiana after Hurricane Katrina.
They said down there that they wanted to re-buid just the way it was.
Hell no, if they did that they would have to build affordable housing so that the blacks and other poor people that lived there could return.
St.Paul, like the city down there, is doing the same thing but without a hurricane as an excuse.
Jeff Matiatos
Landlords like Steinhauser got in the citys way when they started to rent to the poor and minorities.
I shouldn't say started, because these were the types of people already renting in these areas.
The city wanted to turn these neighborhoods inside out, not keep the status quo.
Jeff Matiatos
Talk about timing, I just got an e-mail from Yahoo.
" Buy a home in your area at an affordable price, see a list of forclosures in your area ".
I can't wait to check out the list of forclosures.
I just hope they don't need serious repairs !
Jeff Matiatos
Jeff matiatos.
They said down there that they wanted to re-buid just the way it was.
Hell no, if they did that they would have to build affordable housing so that the blacks and other poor people that lived there could return.
St.Paul, like the city down there, is doing the same thing but without a hurricane as an excuse.
Jeff Matiatos
GOOD point Jeff!
Well if that was true Jeff, then wouldn't St.Paul have let PHA expand on properties it condemed and demolished ?
I just don't understand what these Rico landlords are bitching about.
What is the cities motive then?
why does anyone care if their mortgage is held by an out of state bank? Most of my loans are out of state banks because that is who was offering the best rates at the time. The difference is, I pay my mortgage.
I have never understood St. Paul's goal with regard to preventing the sale of cat 3 properties. I doubt banks will hire construction crews to comply (any evidence I am wrong?). That leaves two options: everyone ignores the ordinance and transfers the property regardless or the buildings just sit and sit and sit.
What should we call this spat?
The dip-shit split
Clods at odds
The clash of the SOB slobs
Why didn't their mothers teach them to care about people?
Thats fine Bill that you pay your mortgage, but were talking about homes that need re-hab or need extensive repairs to stay code compliant.
My view is that these banks are not stepping up to the plate when they learn that the mortgage holder / homeowner is standing before the council about to lose it because the bank approved a loan on a home that wasn't up to snuff.
I think there sould be requirements in every city that requires the bank to have a percentage of the home value to have an escrow account to draw on for re-pairs and the like.
Sort of like an insurance policy.
Someone tell me what the bank that holds the mortgage does when it learns the city is going to demo it ?
Jeff Matiatos
Bill lets Punish all these out of state banks so their scared to invest in St.Paul.Lets make it hard for someone who wants to live in St.Paul to get a loan.Then the city can pass new taxes to lure banks into lending in ST.Paul again.Hows that for a social program.Kinda how St.Paul had to lure developers into investing in the city-Why?Because they ran them out of here years ago.
Soon St.Paul won't have affordable housing because no landlord in their right mind would want to take the risks.Then what?Government will take taxes and have to bring affordable housing back.
Haven't you libs figured it out yet?You fuck things up then come along with so great ideas the government can only fix it.
Keep messing with the business and this City will be a ghost town.
Ryan
"Well, apparently not because Bob and others would like them to be able to leave them vacant and play pass the problem from one holder to another. In fact you could just create an LLC that you pass it back and forth to and never repair it if Bob has his way."
People don't buy junk just to sell it some other junk dealer you idiot. They fix them up and re-sell them.
And as far as Jeff's remarks go, he needs to get a clue about what goes on in the real world.
"Someone tell me what the bank that holds the mortgage does when it learns the city is going to demo it ?"
Well I'm so glad you asked because I can give you the answer!
They start celebrating cause when the city demos the house the banks gets all of their money paid to them. You see most of those mortgages were required to be insured with the buyer paying the premium with his monthly payment......usually around $100.00 a month. The bank doesn't care if it gets paid because if the homeowner doesn't pay up, then the insurance compnay does!
The banks are not going to fix them and Jeffs reccomendation that they have an escrow for this type of thing is just going to cause the banks to require the owners to fund that escrow and tack it onto the monthly payment, just like they do with the insurance. Or they'll raise the interest rates they charge to make the loan. In either case, the house just got a whole lot more expensive at the same time most people are realizing they have a whole lot LESS money. Still sound like a good idea? Hell can freeze over and these banks are not going to fix em up.
" People don't buy junk just to sell it (to) some other junk dealer idiot. They fix them up and re-sell them" .
Really ?
I don't buy junk period and certainly wouldn't sell it if I had it. I'd junk it. No one would buy it stupid.
You care to elaborate on my comments with just exactly you disagree with ?
Forget it, you have nothing to offer anyways Mr. no name.
Jeff Matiatos
Thank you 10:13.
You know assholes like the poster at 9:58 just can't wait to jump all over those that come here to be informed as well as offer at least a perspective even if that person doesn't exactly know what the deal is.
Jeff Matiatos
It's just Eric in hiding Jeff.
"Well, apparently not because Bob and others would like them to be able to leave them vacant and play pass the problem from one holder to another. In fact you could just create an LLC that you pass it back and forth to and never repair it if Bob has his way."
My response;
You can search 2 1/2 years of this blog and never find a statement I made to back up your assertions.
It's just Eric in hiding Jeff.
6:45 AM
As Bob stated above, to change my act after two and a half years and start posting like a coward under 'anonymous'. Who are you again?
I'm enjoying Jeff give it to the opposition for a change. Even Ryan is weighing in on the side of good. Cullen is true to nature by defending the banks.
9:58 is contradicting himself in his own answer in one statement. He appears to be another apologists for the landlords who don't take care of their property. The complete opposite of what I do.
Eric <---- The and only.
Eric, ignorant citizens signed on to these sub prime mortgages with soaring interest rates. Why is it the banks fault?
"Ryan" was mocking the city.
A poor citizen renting a home commits a crime, who does the city blame? The Landlord, and his rental property becomes a target of code enforcement.
A dumb ass who took out a sub prime loan and lost their home. Who does the city blame, the banks!
The city transfers blame to innocent people so they can go after someone with money.
Eric, I am not stupid! I wouldn't leave my name here having experienced first hand the vindictiveness of this city.
Personal attacks are not warranted, as the Budget affects all of us.
St. Paul is NOT the most livable city http://www.financialstability.gov/ Look at new site called
Mark my words, the Obama Stimulus will backfire on all of us.
Mpls is now banning cloth couch's on front porchs.
Err on the Side of Freedom
You are kind of dumb-ass, in spite of what you say.
Mortgage backed securities were the quickest money makers on Wall Street. The more the better. Banks LOVED them.
Mortgage brokers were able to offer these 'creative' loans to just about anyone who walked in the door. They didn't feel the need to be responsible for checking on income, credit history or anything. Why? Because when they turn people away, they get zilch. So, with the knowledge that if these people default on their loans, it would be traded from bank to bank and someone else's problem down the line.
Most people who took out these loans, are still making their payments by the way.
Again, banks turned a blind eye because they were able to show massive increases in profits, pay great bonuses and keep the economy falsely moving ahead.
That's unregulated capitalism.
Today, we are living in aftermath of the irresponsibility of unregulated capitalism.
Thanks for the link, Obama is earning that record high job approval rating he's receiving. Its a huge mess the we have not faced before.
Banks are failing all over because of their own greed. The drive for that capitalism drove them to self destruct and now they are begging the same government they pushed out of the way, for help.
Wrap yourself around that.
Eric
Speaking of dumb-asses not understanding what they read- this guy Andy Dick, seems to fall in that category.
The council made an exception for him because he was not AWARE of the category of the home.
How much does one put up for such a house?
If you are in the business of development, shouldn't be clear on the status of the property before you start the work?
He actually should know better sits his business. People who signed on to funny loans, were for the most part in that position for the first time. This Dick guy is a professional.
What about his his money he invested? Hey, its a risk.
What about the people who lost their life savings and billions to Bernie Madoff- they get nothing. Its a risk.
Be consistent. Dick made a bad decision and if he gets this pass (which he did), its going to be tough to deny the slumlords from the same pass.
Eric
Ah screw it fuck the banks;it doesn't matter Barack will bail them out.Now isn't the democratically lead congress telling banks to drop loan principals and rates?Lend your money!Come on get it out there!Isn't that just what they did, say around 1999?The banks couldn't lend anymore money under there current lending procedures so they created negative ams,interest only,and arms.They fed cut rates to record lows and wammo!We are having major problems.No we want to do it again.
Eric this is not capitalism.I'd say were somewhere between capitalism and socialism.Capitalism makes free investments and when it fails another will take its place.We are now on the brink of never going back.When you fail Uncle Sam will bail you out.They are privatizing profit and socializing risk!
What sucks is some banks are doing well and didn't make dumb business decisions and should be strengthened by these other careless banks going out of business so they can take there place.But big government is there to the social rescue!
I just wonder how many banks would have watched what they did if they knew big government wasn't there?
Low rates and special no interest and arms are bad decisions.Repke and Erci your party didn't stop it either.
Ryan
"Mortgage brokers were able to offer these 'creative' loans to just about anyone who walked in the door."
Yeah and they were ordered to do it by renegade DFL'rs who hijacked congressional and senate races.
And what's wrong with giving the landlords the same chance that Dick gets Eric? Are you advocating that some people should not be allowed to fix their house, but the politically connected get a special favor? Sounds like ti to me.
Looks like Ryan shut Repkes and Erics mouth.
William
What bothers me is that it looked like Chuck launched a big and unjustified attack on Christianity, through the use of ancient Rome.
Then, when called on it, Chuck and Eric turned it into a cultural event.
To quote Benjamin Franklin in a key speech to the Constitutional Convention in the establishment of our country, "If a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his knowledge, can an empire arise without its assistance?"
Chuck, you want to kick out the foundation blocks of our society and replace it with what???
No foundation blocks for Chuck, he's like Nancy L.....he thinks everything is we the people and the soverins and the greater good, etc.
What bothers me is that it looked like Chuck launched a big and unjustified attack on Christianity, through the use of ancient Rome.
Then, when called on it, Chuck and Eric turned it into a cultural event.
To quote Benjamin Franklin in a key speech to the Constitutional Convention in the establishment of our country, "If a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his knowledge, can an empire arise without its assistance?"
Chuck, you want to kick out the foundation blocks of our society and replace it with what???
I didn't get into the Christian thing, I believe different than Chuck but since you want to rope me in it.
Tell us why and where Chuck is wrong
If you know anything about the history of the Christian faith you know that for centuries it has been mired in war, abuse and justification for some of the worst crimes against humanity. Sort of what most see Islam to be today. The worst of these being the series of Crusades. It makes the extreme Islamic Fascists look like amateurs. Google 'Crusades' and check it out.
Ben Franklin, as was Jefferson, was adamant in their rejection of literal acceptance of the Bible and Jesus as being the son the God. They did admire and often quote the teachings of Christ but, were not big on the church either.
In 1790, just about a month before he died, Franklin wrote the following in a letter to Ezra Stiles, president of Yale University, who had asked him his views on religion:
“ As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble..."
My experience is that the most fundamental self proclaimed Christians, are some of the most judgmental un-Christian like people.
Eric
Eric,
I am not a fundamentalist Christian, or even a conservative Christian for that matter. Nor do I feel I need to defend the Crusades, which had a number of motivations, including those with a big profit motive. If you knew anything about the Barbarian Culture. the West, you wouldn't be so superficial. I'd like to think the Christians have made a positive impact, but it has not yet come close to what God intended. I do not defend all things done in the name of religion, as these have often had/have non-religious motivations (described in the Bible as wolves in sheep's clothing).
What bothers me is some people attack religion in order to justify their own sleaze and lack of values. If you want an intelligent conversation, you would know that!
I have yet to see an attack of religion.
That's where you're blind. I don't care what you call yourself. You jumped on Chuck because you felt like he was attacking Christianity but, you clearly are ignorant to history or just a mindless drone.
Tell the blog exactly where you saw some kind of shot a religion. Where?
(at this point, we will not hear from this one again)
Eric
Well Eric,
I've got to admit that I am ignorant of the ultra-liberal version of history. But this is their 'Achilles heel'. It is very fragile and cannot with stand the light of day. Without a solid foundation of fact for the arguments, all arguments on top crumble to dust.
Hitler also relied on a schlock version of history as a foundation for his claims. Twist some facts here, de-emphasise points here, elevate meaningless things to great significance, and Poof - there you have it.
As far as Chuck and religion go, someone mentioned the fall of Rome in the last big thread and Chuck immediately went into a tizzy implying that the Christians brought down Rome. Give me a break!
Sorry, Rome wasn't built in a day, and many factors brought it down. It had major accomplishments and failures, and I think its best that it failed and left lessons for the rest of us.
As one lesson, we need to know that the leadership of St Paul is not operating on a foundation of twisted and distorted facts. Many people think the leaders have failed miserably, and that's why this blog is so popular. Can you imagine how improved St Paul would be if HELLgen used better values?
Also Eric, with the insults in your last post, you wanted an answer. I suggest you read the Bible, like Lincoln did. You might learn something.
Wow, folks I didn't attack Christanity. I don't have a clue where that would have come from.
I just responded several time to the silly reasons people give as to the fall of Rome, usually expressing some moral decay that brings down Rome, when in fact Rome didn't get "Christian morals" until just before it fell (100-150 years).
It does appear that those who are ignorant of history always believe that one is hostile to religion when you just help them put things in historical content.
I swear, its not my fault that the Roman's were throwing the Christians to the lions at the turn of the 4th century.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Just like I thought. No answer. For the record dippiest of shits, I was raised catholic, catholic school and all. Left the church as an adult and began attending several protestant churches until we settled with the Evangelical Free Church.
Ain't nothing liberal about my faith.
However, none of my upbringing or teachings taught me to ignore the truth about where we've been.
Usually its those who justified keeping former slaves out of the church, pissing on other cultures, and pretending the America was founded by Christians that can't stand to hear anything that they weren't told. They're also the same ones who are the most un-Christian like assholes.
I would advise you, that if you are going to wear your beliefs on your sleeves, and in turn are so ready to act in adverse of your teachings,you know what the fuck you're talking about.
Chuck mentioned the fall of Rome began when the Empire tried to push Christianity on its people across the known world. People who have been practicing their own pagan religions for centuries are suddenly being forced to confirm. They resisted and tie that into the the rise of the Franks, the Arab expansion and the fractured loyalty of the Roman Army (multi-faceted), the Fall of Rome was well on its way.
If you know about the foundations of the church, you'll remember that the early church was pretty wise in roping in certain practices, (Easter with traditional Spring celebrations, Christmas Day, Christmas tree, Christmas wreath, etc.) that were pagan into the faith. There is no where in the bible that suggest we celebrate the birth of Christ. Its the re-birth that all of foundations are based on (what we are supposed to be celebrating around Easter). Hell, the Church suspended the celebration of Christmas for centuries, including in the New World for a time.
Take your politics out of faith and you may begin to understand the founders and framers like Jefferson and Franklin.
Eric
Eric,
Part of the reason I am opposed to your point of view is because of what I learned in the Catholic church.
It is wrong for the City Council and inspectors to lie, cheat, and steal, and to destroy peoples' lives, because of a political agenda.
If you learned in Catholic school that wrong is right, that is a matter you should take up with the Archbishop. They may have failed you.
On the matter of your potty mouth, and thinking wrong is right, this belongs in the confessional.
I can see you are sensitive about your version of history or you wouldn't be so overwrought.
You and Eric learn to rape little boys too?
That Church has been a sham for hundreds of years.
Despite the highly sensational scandal, I and the vast majority of students got an excellent education in Catholic schools, with no trace of anything wrong.
Eric might be the exception.
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