DFL delegates deal blow to instant-run off voting
posted by Bob at Tuesday, March 24, 2009
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Tuesday, March 24, 2009
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20 Comments:
By Paul Demko 3/23/09 5:30 PM
The ongoing U.S. Senate contest may have produced an unlikely victim: instant-runoff voting.
The controversial balloting system, in which voters rank candidates in order of preference, was on the agenda at Saturday’s Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party convention in St. Paul. At issue was whether the DFL should lend its blessing to a campaign aimed at adopting instant-runoff voting (IRV). Most significantly, this would mean that the party’s sample ballot — mailed to thousands of potential voters in the days leading up to an election — would instruct DFLers to vote yes on the ballot question.
The measure was backed by 58 percent of delegates. Unfortunately for IRV supporters, it needed to garner support from 60 percent of delegates to be adopted. The upshot: The DFL’s sample ballot will not instruct voters to support the adoption of IRV. While this may seem like a trifling development, in a city that votes overwhelmingly Democratic it could have a discernible effect on the outcome of the ballot referendum.
St. Paul City Councilman Dave Thune (pictured) and veteran DFL activist Chuck Repke led the opposition to the measure at Saturday’s convention. They passed out fliers with a ballot from Cambridge, Mass., which utilizes IRV, featuring 19 candidates for a city council post.
“Anyone who could look at that and not think that the average voter is going to find that totally frustrating is totally out of touch with the average voter in the City of St. Paul,” Repke said.
On another flier distributed by IRV opponents: mucked-up ballots from the contest between Al Franken and Norm Coleman. During the Senate recount, goofy ballots such as one endorsing “flying spaghetti monster” got most of the attention. But much more common were routinely botched ballots in which a voter’s intent simply couldn’t be discerned because of unusual markings.
Thune believes IRV would only compound such problems and disenfranchise voters. “While this may seem like a wonderful thing in Cambridge for a bunch of Harvard professors, we’ve got a general population that has trouble filling out one oval in a Coleman-Franken race,” he says.
What’s more, Thune argues that certain populations of voters, such as the disabled, immigrants whose first language isn’t English, the elderly –”all the people that supposedly as Democrats and liberals we’re bound to protect,” he notes–would be disproportionately affected by a more complex balloting system.
But former City Councilman Jay Benanav, who spoke in support of the measure at the convention, said the Cambridge analogy is misleading because City Council elections there are citywide. “We don’t have that here,” he says. “It’s by wards. You won’t have to rank 19 people.”
He also argues that there’s no proof that IRV has disenfranchised voters in cities where it has been adopted. “Every place it’s been tested it’s just never been a problem,” he said.
This doesn’t mean that IRV is dead in St. Paul. More than 7,000 residents petitioned the City Council last year to place the issue on the ballot in November. But under advice from the city attorney, the Council voted to table the issue until the courts ruled on whether such a balloting system is constitutional. In January, Hennepin District Court Judge George McGunnigle ruled that the system passed constitutional muster. While the issue is likely to be appealed to the Minnesota Supreme Court, it probably won’t keep the St. Paul City Council from authorizing the IRV measure to be on the ballot in November.
Benanav argues that not garnering sufficient support to get the measure on the DFL’s sample ballot is only a minor setback. “Would it be nice to have it? Of course it would,” he said. “Is it a critical or fatal flaw? Absolutely not.”
IRV would be the end of one party rule in Saint Paul. This is the reason Repke and Thune oppose IRV.
Click on my name and see the truth about IRV.
Ah... Ralph
Excuse me Ralph, but you linked people to a web site that tells them what a bunch of garbage IRV is, how it doesn't work and how it doesn't help anyone.
Its a good site, but not what you thought you were doing.
As to breaking the DFL strangle hold, at our convention they just keep saying we will elect more Democrat's with this, that Franken would be in office and that Pawlenty would have never have won.
They are so full of it, it makes my head spin.
We were darn lucky Barkley was on the ballot folks, if you look at the numbers, those were mostly Obama votes that couldn't get themselves to vote for Al. What makes DFL'ers think their second choice was to do what they wouldn't do with their first? What kind of thinking get's people to believe that?
The promise to the DFL faithful is that they can win elections without working hard if they only pass Instant Run Off Voting.
Its to, to sad.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Ralph (or should I call you Sammy?)
The State DFL Party has already endorsed IRV. As did the Democratic National Committee Chair Howard Dean. Barack Obama is an IRV supporter as well as the entire DFL legislative crew from St Paul.
Hardly a DFL conspiracy.
I am for it. I am also aware that Chuck makes some very good points that those running the IRV campaign seems to dismiss. It will fall into the lap of Democrats to fix of course.
All I know is with IRV as the system, you can Chuck Repke and Eric Mitchell serving on the same council.
Political operatives who have worked elections over a period of time will be able to take advantage of IRV easier than they could with a straight out election.
Eric
Oh, San Fransisco is an IRV town. Not exactly a Republican enclave.
Ralph what have you been smoking?
I support this and I believe it will help eliminate campain abuses and make elections more competitive.
It should be applied to judicial elections as well.
I think it kind of hurts St.Paul mayoral elections because it throws the element of the onknown into the mix and more likley that un apposed candidates like Chris Coleman just might lose because he didn't get enough 1st place votes.
Your turn Chuck.
Jeff Matiatos
I'm for IRV.
We can save time and money with it.
Some day people will get dam tiered of politics and try anything, even IRV.
Repke -- Do you know how much it will save the tax payers in one year
Maybe a poor man can win the election, did anyone see how much publicity Jesse got in 1998 for trying to help me Bill Dahn.
Or did he get in because the Democrat and Republican candidates, Norm Coleman 34.29% and Skippy Humphrey 28.09% were so dam dumb?
Jesse Ventura received 36.99% of the votes
Jesse Ventura (born July 15, 1951 as James George Janos), also known as "The Body", "The Star", and "The Governing Body" and "stupid".
Stupid for getting Bill Dahn to "change" to Republican, and Dean Barkley video taping the bribe.
Watch it yourself and see
>> www.BillDahn.com <<
Bill Dahn might win this one, Democrats and the DFL Union Boys won't know how their people voted.
shut up Bill no one cares what you think if you think. no one is going to vote for you either. We could have IRV and you could be the only candidate on the ballot and will still lose. thats what losers do. lose
Well, the money savings is one of the lies of the pro-IRV campaign.
First you have to buy all new equipment and to this point there aren't any systems certified to count the second and third choices acurately.
And then you can't get rid of the primaries in Saint Paul because the School board primary would still occur in September.
So, no, zero, no cost savings and a brand new computor system that no one is sure will work.
Also folks if you like your results election night, forget it in IRV because you can't run totals in precincts like we currently do. All of the ballots will have to be run through one machine because the drop offs occur for the bottem candidates based on the total Ward wide or City wide counts.
So, the count can't start until all of the precincts are in so that you can run the mess through the machine.
Even though I have my detractors, I can tell a con game when I see one, and I am sorry folks that is all the IRV is.
Cary, North Carolina became an IRV City in its last election and it is switching back now. Those who won in the election could tell that in the one close race that occured nobody had any confidence in how the second and third place votes were counted.
And in the election that just occured in Burlington Vt. the person in Second place after the first round wins after the third round of counting but only after 600 people 7% of the vote no longer have votes in the count. They didn't fill in enough dots to get down to the final two!!!!
So, yes folks you could only vote for one if you chose but your vote may not count.
Its a bad system designed to give the well educated, wealthy, white, voters multiple votes and I will never support it.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
...and to add on to Eric's point, it doesn't scare me.
I have no fear in playing in an IRV system, I just think it means you have to play nastier.
As you have suggested on this site, the Anybody But Campaign is how you would run IRV campaigns.
You raise the negetive on your mostly likely oponent as high as possible, to make sure that nobody has them as their second choice.
If you like mud, you'll love IRV.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Anonymous said...
shut up Bill no one cares what you think if you think. no one is going to vote for you either. We could have IRV and you could be the only candidate on the ballot and will still lose. thats what losers do. lose
8:44 PM
Cry Baby if I am not going to win the election, why are you wasting you time Bad Nouthing Me
What's nouthing?
Bad Mouthing a type error.
What a "DemoRat", DFL.
To all that knows what St.Paul help cover up know that before RAP screwed up mine and my bothers homw, we never ask the D--- F------- Liars for nothing.
Ex Mayor Jim Scheibel ran RAP.
Dirt from within, so before this election comes near we will make this city craw.
We have statement from our EX Governor how bad they left my home, and his side kick lawyer Dean Barkley worked with RAP to repair their BAD Work.
Then the
"LeslieDavis.org" book tell the truth about these so called people in the DFL Party
It wasn't me who posted the link.
We must have another Ralph or someone is playing games and using my name. I am against IRV.
Signed,
the real Ralph.
Bill,
I understand you are running for mayor, Great to hear it. How can we get involved and who is your campaign manager? What is your campaign web site? I can't find it when I Google your name. I may be spelling it wrong.
Bob can you post this information?
"fags"?!?!?
Nice candidate for mayor you got here, A-Democracy. A real low-brow bigot.
Bill,
I have the 'gust' to tell you to your craggy, sad, face that you don't have the where with all to relate to the everyday issues and pressures that those of us actually trying to work and raise a family in St Paul face.
I have the 'gust' to tell you to your sourpuss of a face that you have issues and putting you in charge of a 600 million dollar budget that affects the lives of hundreds of thousands is just not fathomable. You have no experience, training, education or clue. I'm willing to bet you just figured out the total budget about two sentences ago.
Here's the proposed budget from 2008, all 480 pages. Come back when you think you understand it. Or don't.
You're barely in shape enough to live in this town, let alone run it.
Eric
6:32
Really?
I take it back, there is someone that makes Bill look like a mayor.
Click on his title, he and Sharon leave more ways to their website on A-Democracy than A-Democracy.
Eric
Bill said;
"fags"?!?!?
Eric said;
Nice candidate for mayor you got here, A-Democracy. A real low-brow bigot.
My response;
Eric, why do you make erroneous statements claiming Bill Dahn is "A Democracy's" candidate?
I challenge you to show us something even close to a statement where I the host of this forum endorsed or supported Bill Dahn for mayor. You can't it didn't happen!
1.This is an open forum ANYONE can post here or request a topic with a title. There are some posters who will do anything for attention and they spam the blog occasionally. What popular forum isn't getting spammed? Because we have very few rules we get to see folks for who they are.
2. I have said more than once I didn't think it would be ethical for this blog to support any candidate. Whether you want to believe it or not Eric, many of the property rights advocates are DFLers sick and tired of the status quo.
Bob,
To your 10:17 post, I agree, you are fair here. You don't have to explain to us loyal posters here what you do.
Some of us were on the SPIF and know what goes on over there. SPIF is just a DFL blog.
If Bill or Sharon want to post then so let them. If is interesting to hear what they have to say. Yes, I really wonder where they are coming from, but this is what makes America GREAT, the ability to have your say. That is what my father and many fathers and mothers have faught for and died for, the ability to have your say. This is one of our basic principles and if we start restricting free speech then we are no better than the Democrats like Obama who believe in the "New World Order."
It was interesting to hear what Bill had to say, but not any longer. And his free speech rights don't give him the right to take over here by spamming every topic to draw attention to his crazy cause that he only wants to use to call Democrats names. If he showed up at any public meeting and persisted doing what he does here, he'd be deemed "Disorderly" and arrested and charged. Free speech my ass!
And double what I just said for Sharon. Who the hell wants to take a lot of time trying to figure out what the hell it is she's trying to say?
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