Nancy C. Lazaryan, el al., v. City of St. Paul, et al.
Please click onto the COMMENTS for the story.
posted by Bob at Tuesday, September 30, 2008
Custom Search
Tuesday, September 30, 2008
A DEMOCRACY TOWN HALL HOME
Do you have a topic you want to discuss at the Town Hall? Email your request to A_Democracy@yahoo.com
“A DEMOCRACY” Disclaimer- While the administrators and moderators of this forum will attempt to remove or edit any generally objectionable material as quickly as possible, it is impossible to review every message. Therefore you acknowledge that all posts made to this forum express the views and opinions of the author and not the administrators, moderators (except for posts by these people) and hence will not be held liable.
You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-oriented or any other material that may violate any applicable laws. Doing so may lead to you being immediately and permanently banned
THE ROOF GUYS
Mickey's Diner 1950 7th Street West, St Paul, MN
(651) 698-8387
AX-MAN SURPLUS
1639 University Ave.
St. Paul, MN 55104
Tel:(651)646-8653
LANDLORD.COM LINK HERE
SHHHH! While we listen to words of wisdom from a wise man.
Conscience is the light of the Soul that burns within the chambers of our psychological heart. It is as real as life is. It raises the voice in protest whenever anything is thought of or done contrary to the righteousness. Conscience is a form of truth that has been transferred through our genetic stock in the form of the knowledge of our own acts and feelings as right or wrong. A virtuous and courageous person can alone use the instrument of conscience. He or she can alone hear the inner voice of the soul clearly. In a wicked person this faculty is absent. The sensitive nature of his / her conscience has been destroyed by sin or corruption. Hence he or she is unable to discriminate right from wrong. Those who are leading organizations, business enterprises, institutions and governments should develop this virtue of the ability to use their own conscience. This wisdom of using the clean conscience will enable them to enjoy the freedom.
Dr APJ Kalam, President of India given during the inauguration of the seminar on “THE EFFECTS OF CORRUPTION ON GOOD GOVERNANCE AND HUMAN RIGHTS
Previous Posts
- Appeals court overturns eviction
- Saint Paul/ Federal Fair Housing Lawsuits part 11....
- Fired bus cleaner wins $150,000 award
- Saint Paul/ RNC FALLOUT
- Saint Paul/ Department of Safety and Inspections i...
- St. Paul Port Authority scores big chunk of 3M pro...
- City Says Daughter Can’t Continue Her Late Father’...
- Saint Paul/ Introducing "The Neighborhood From HEL...
- Saint Paul/ Federal Fair Housing Lawsuits, Meet Vi...
- Saint Paul/ Federal Fair Housing Lawsuits part 10,...
85 Comments:
There maybe copy errors.
CITY OF SAINT PAUL
Christopher B. Coleman Mayor
September 23, 2008
Honorable Dale B, Lindman
District Court Judge:
1.030 Ramsey County-Courthouse
15 W. Kellogg Boulevand
St. Paul, MN 55102
Re: Nancy C. Lazaryan, el al., v. City of St. Paul, et al.
Court File No.: 62-CV-07-1960
SPCAO File No,: S07-0035
Dear Judge Lindman:
On June 26, 2008, you presided over a hearing in the above matter pursuant to a motion
brought on behalf of Evelyn Wallace seeking "judicial review for final detennination of a
decision of a legi$lative officer and for temporary restraining order." The i$sues for your
consideration that day arose from enforcement action the City had taken against 1033 Colne
Street as it relates to (1) the continuing status ofthe structure at that address as a vacant building under City Code (i.e., the order directing that the building be vacated immediately and windows boarded) and (2) a nuisance condition on existing on the property. Not under consideration that day, as you noted at the time, was whether the home at 1033 Colne had, in the flIst instance, been
properly classified as a "vacant building" within the meaning ofthe City Code. That issue had
been litigated and an ordered issued by Judge Higgs directing all claims against the City of St.
Paul be dismissed with prejudaice:
Apparently touching upon the city's enforcement action as it relates to the order to vacate
was a recent Minnesota Supreme Court decision in Morris v. Sax, 749 N.W.2d 1 (Minn. 2008).
Ms. Lazaryan asked the Court to construe the Sax decision in such a way as to preclude the City
from ordering the building to be vacated. I argued, on behalf of the City, that Morris was
inapplicable.
'During the hearing on June 26, 2008, the Court made tllis aspect ofJudge Higgs' order final,
so as to permit Ms. Lazaryan to appeal the decision. She has done so. On September 11.,2008, the
Minnesota Court of Appeals notified the parties that case number A08-1577 has been assigned to the appeal.
Page 2
However, because the case was sufficiently recent to warrant a second look, the Court
requested that the issue be addressed again in this format. I do so now. For reasons set forth
below, tlle City reiterates it's position that the Sax case is inapplicable to the matter before the Court on June 26, 2008.
On May 15, 2008, the Minnesota Supreme Court issued an opinion in Morris v. Sax. In
that case, Sax challenged the City of MOlTis' Rental Licensing Ordinance. The City ofMorris
denied Sax a rental license when Sax refused to make improvements required by the City's
Rental Licensing Ordinance, such as GFI outlets, bathroom venting and window well covers.
Sax said·rlle improvements were notrequired because the items complied with the Minnesota
State Building Code. The Supreme Court agreed, holding that the City did not have the
authority, through a municipal building code provision, to regulate a component or system of a
residential structure ifthe municipal regulation is different from a provision of the State Building Code. However, the court also noted that Our decision should not be misconstrued as precluding all municipal regulation of rental housing. ... Municipal rental housing regulations are not prohibited by
the State Building Code if they do not regulate components or systems of a residential structure covered by the State Building Code and are not different from any provisions in the State Building Code. This leaves many pennissible areas of
regulation.
Morris v. Sax, 749 N.W.2d 1, 31 n.7 (Minn. 2008). In other words, if tile State Building Code is
silent on a particular issue, Sax places no limitation on the City's ability to lawfully regulate.
Therefore, the City's regulations regarding interior and exterior maintenance of structures in their
existing condition and nuisance abatement is not impacted by this decision. These are the
regulations at issue in this case, therefore Sax does not apply.
In addition addressing the §ax issue, the Court asked the court to set forth its position on
the jurisdiction of this Court to hear a direct appeal from a legislative hearing officer in -light of an inherent tension on this issue existing within Chapter 18 of the St. Paul Legislative Code.
The authority of the district court to review the city council's decision is jurisdictional. City
of Minneapolis v. Meldahl,607N.W.2d 168, 171 (Minn. Ct. App. 2000). A party may obtain a
review of a quasi-judicial decision by an executive body that does not have statewide jurisdiction like the St. Paul City Council - only by writ of certiorari. Id. .
There are three indicia that an action is quasijuldicial: (l) investigation into a disputed claim
and weighing of evidentiary facts; (2) application of those facts to a prescribed standard; and (3) a
binding decision regarding the disputed claim.H
Page 3
The City Council has acted in a quasi-judicial capacity in every matter Ms. Lazaryan has
brought before it. For instance, Ms. Lazaryan (on behalf of Ms. Wallace) disputed the City's
designation of Colne Street property as a Registered Vacant Building. In deciding that matter, the City Council weighed evidentiary facts. It then applied those facts to the standard prescribed in St.
Paul Legislative Code § 43.02 (7), used to determine whether a building is designated a Registered
Vacant Building. Finally, the city council's decision is binding because the City's determination that a structure is a Registered Vacant Building creates both rights and responsibilities for the owner.
Sec: 81 St. Paul Legislative Code §43,01. See also: Handicraft Block P'Ship 'II. City of Minneapolis,
611 N.W.2d 16, 20 (Minn. 2000) (finding that proceedings before a city council to designate
buildings for heritage preservation is quasi-judicial); DRJ, Inc. v. City of St. Paul, 741 N.W.2d 141
(MilUl. Ct. App. 2007) (recognizing that a license revocation decision by city council constitutes a
quasi-judicial decision); City of Minneapolis 11. Meldahl, 607 N.W.2d 168, 171 (Minn. Ct. App.
2000) (agreeing that the city's decision to order demolition of a building was quasi-judicial); Horm
v. City oJCoon Rapids, 313 N.W.2d 409, 417 (Minn. 1981) (deciding that a city council's choice to
grant a zoning variance or special use permit is quasi-judicial).
There is no statutory authority to authorize a different proceeding in this case. Section 18.03
of the St. Paul Legislative Code is not inconsistent with this assertion. It must be read in
conjunction with Section 18.01, which provides in pertinent part:
All matters, orders, decisions and determinations of the hearing officer shall be
forwarded to the city council in resoiution fonn within ten (l0) days of the hearing
officer's actions. The city council shall have the authority to approve, modify,
reverse, revoke, wholly or partly, the hearing officer's orders, decisions or
determinations and shall make such order, decision or determination as ought to be
made.
In this case, the City Council was forwarded recomnendations by the Legislative Hearing
Officer and exercised its authority."approve, defer reverse,pr r~yoke:'the recommendations
brought before it. During the hearing held before the City Council on May 21, 2008, the point was made by Ms. Moermond when she stated to an unidentified council member that it their "right and
responsibility to listen and amend, ratify, overturn, whatever you see fit with any of my
recommendations." Transcript of May 21,2009, p. 6, In. 4-8.
2Section 18.03 provides in pertinent part:
"Any person aggrieved by the final decision of the iegisiative hearing officer may
obtain judicial review by timely filing of an action seeking review of such decision
as provided by law in district court" (emphasis added).
Page 4
Finally, the Court has asked the City state its position on whether a stay of enforcement is
required while Ms. Lazaryan appeals Judge Higgs' order. It is not.
Under the City of St. Paul's Legislative Code § 18.01 (hereinafter, Code), a legislative
hearing officer hears and decides "appeals of orders, decisions, or determinations made by enforcement officers relative to enforcement of health, housing, building or fire codes." The
legislative hearing officer has the authority to "hear appeals to order, decisions or determinations of the enforcement officers or others and made recommendations to city council. The legislative
hearing officer cannot, however, "grant waivers of the Minnesota State Building Code." It is the city council that has the authority to "approve, modify, reverse, revoke, wholly or partly, the hearing officer's orders, decisions or detenninations." Id.
When a property owner files an appeal of an enforcement proceeding or an order to correct
one or more violations, the enforcement proceeding or orders to correct are typically held in
abeyance. St. Paul Legislative Code § 34.25 (2) (2007). However, an exception exists when the
matter involves orders to vacate a structure deemed unsafe and dangerous to life and limb. Id.
Abeyance ofenforcement proceedings shall continue nuli! such time as the hearing officer shall have
issued a final determination. Id.
There have been several "appeals" in the case of the property at 1033 Colne, so attention
must be paid as to which "appeal" is at issue. TIle issue of whether 1033 was properly designated
as a registered vacant building was first before the legislative hearing officer. From there the matter
was reviewed by the City Council. It was then brought to the distlict court, as noted above, in the guise of a civil action.
Because the Plaintiff asked for an injunction regarding the enforcement ofthe vacant building
status, it is in this context that the stay is disctlssed.
The City's designation of!ile CO!lle propertyas aRegistered Va.can!BuJlding is characteristic
of the exception to abeyance pending an appeal than the rule. The designation of a Registered
Vacant Building operates on similar principles ofprotecting life and limb as an order to vacate, the
difference being that a vacant building is often already unoccupied. For example, under §43.03(4)
of the Code, the Plaintiff cannot not reoccupy the property until completion of a plan for returning
the building to appropriate occupancy or use.
Chapter 43 of the Code covers vacant buildings. The stated purpose of the chapter in §§
43.01 (IH3) is "to protect public health, safety and welfare" by establishing a program for
identification and registration ofvacant btlildings, determining "responsibilities ofowners ofvacant
buildings and structures," and providing for "administration, enforcement and penalties."
Page 5
A vacant building is defined as a building or portion of building which is unoccupied and
ul1secured; unoccupied and secured by other than normal means; unoccupied and a dangerous
structure; unoccupied and condemned; unoccupied and has multiple housing or building code
violations; condemned and illegally occupied; or unoccupied for more than a year during which an enforcement officer issued an order to correct nuisance conditions. St. Paul Legislative Code §§
43.02(2)(a)-(g). Underlying each of these standards is an interest in maintaining safe living
conditiOllS. Clearly it is in both the City's and the petitioner's interest to vacate the premises until the property is safe, secure, and habitable.
No provision of Chapter 18 of the Code addresses granting a stay pending appeal to the
district court. Minnesota Rule of Civil Appellate Procedure 108, however, "applies generally to all
appeals and it also requires that a party seeking a stay pending appeal apply 'in the first instance to
the trial court.'" DRJ, Inc. v. City of St. Paul, 741 N.W.2d 141, 143 (Minn. Ct. App. 2007) quoting
Minn. R. Civ. App. P. 108.01, subd. 1 (2008). The appellate rules define "trial court" to include
court or agency whose decision is being reviewed. Minn. R Civ. App. P. 101.02, subd. 4 (2008).
Under Rule 108.01, petitioner was required to make a motion for a stay pending appeal first to the
city council, subject to review by the district court.
The Plaintiff never made application to the City Council for a stay pending appeal ofthe City
Council's decision to either tile Minnesota Court ofAppeals or this Court. Without that application,
tile City Council's decision was not stayed pending appeal. The Colne property's designation as a
Registered Vacant Building remains valid and the order to board the windows is properly enforced
at this time.
In conclusion, the case of Morris v. Sax has no application in the matter before the Court
because the City ordinances at issue in this case do not touch ~Ipon or "regulate a component or
system of a residential structure" as covered under the State Building Code. The house was
classified as a vacant building before it was purchased by the Plaintiff. The State Building Code
does not regulate the manner in which amunicipality classifies homes asvacant or not. The Plaintiff challenged the vacant building status of the 1033 Colne property before the Legfslative Hearing
Officer and in front ofthe City Council. Her next appeal is to the Minnesota Court of Appeals, not
this Court. There should be no stay of enforcement on the unlawful occupancy of
this home during
further appeal for the reasons stated above.
Page 6
Respectfully submitted,
JERS Y
Assistant City Attorney
cc: Patrick T. Tierney, Esq.
David J. McGee, Esq.
RebeccaF:Schille
Sounds like Nancy or Ms.Wallace bought a vacant house.
Also, there was a nusiance condition on the property.
How could the city permit anyone to purchase a vacant, and nuisance property ?
Surely the property tax division has information regarding the homes vacant and nuisance status.
Was it boarded up at the time it was purchased ?
???????????
The other part of that of course is that the City isn't even a part of any transfer of title. That is all handled at the county level. So, the City doesn't even know when someone buys or sells property.
...and 8:53 the land is still a part of the state and the state can make determinations about how one transfers the deed of real property and does so all of the time. The country was founded by Washington and Adams and Jefferson...not Adam Smith.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
City of St. Paul lost in the US Supreme Court, no 01-791
http://www.usdoj.gov/osg/briefs/2001/0responses/2001-0791.resp.html
Perhaps Nancy should remove the case to Federal Court and or Exhaust Remedies MS2.724
Nice post 12:34 That again shows the limitations of the City to impose local ordinances on larger level of governments. This case again goes against the "equal protection" arguements on the landlords case.
HUD successfully won that the City has no power to enforce its rules on the Federal government.
Which clearly means that the City can do things to the private market that can not do to Federally funded programs HUD...PHA.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
But I guess it's ok Chuck for St.Paul and PHA to have the kind of special relationship with each other than as compared to the kind of relationship the city has with landlords ?
I think they call it RICO and discriminating enforcement of laws!
Jeff Matiatos
PHA is a Federally funded program right Chuck ?
Yes PHA is Federally Funded and yes it makes perfect sense for the City of Saint Paul to have a relationship with a Federally Funded Program that is dealing with poverty issues, and NO that is not a RICO action.
That is why the case is insane.
The Fed's created the PHA's all over the nation to deal with poverty issues. They get Federal Funding. They want the local levels of government to work with them and of course they do.
OK so, pull your tin foil hats a little tighter on your heads, but it isn't unusual, unethical or against the law for multiple level of governments to work with each other and that is not going to be considered Racketeering in Federal Court or in any court on the planet Earth.
Your assumptions are insane.
Let's do a little government 101. The cities are the least powerful level of government. They exist because states say they exist.
When the Federal Government operates inside the borders of the City there is little control that the City can exercise over the Fed's (they would be the big boys). That is why the Federal Courts said, Saint Paul, you can't demo a HUD house. The Fed is bigger than the state and it won't allow itself to be forced to follow a local ordinance.
With me folks? That is why the equal protection stuff makes no sense at all. The City can only control what it is allowed by the Fed's and the State to control. So, when the landlord says, my rights are being violated by the City because it does what is the only thing it is allowed to do by law...enforsing the law on private parties... you aren't going to win the case. The Fed exempts itself from local regualations. It doesn't outlaw local regulations on the rest of us!
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
The Feds will work with landlords by allowing them to rent to low income citizens in section 8 same as the PHA.
What were talking about Chuck is this special relationship PHA has with St.Paul which when it concerns the city codes/ordinances, PHA gets preferential treatment as compared to landlords.
This is called discriminatory enforcement of laws (codes/ordinances).
I wonder if HUD gives awards to landlords renting to section 8 tenants same as the awards it gives to PHAs .
Seems even the Feds give PHAs more recognition.
Jeff Matiatos
Sorry to prove you wrong Chuck, but the citys discriminating enforcement of laws and codes concerning PHA and private landlords violates the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment.
See State vs. Haase Minnesota Court of Appeals C4-00-1463 citing
State vs. Hyland 431 N.W.2d 868 at 872.
Just ask your attorney woman .
Jeff Matiatos
Townships like columbus in Anoka County are smaller than cities right Chuck ?
Jeff Matiatos
What's the matter Jeff? Out of meds today? You're posting like you're eating Jays Potato Chips (can't eat just one).
The 14th Amendment definition of citizenship. The amendment requires states to provide equal protection under the law to all persons too.
Nothing about commerce.
States and municipalities can pass laws tougher than the feds or pass laws that are not addressed by federal code.
This particular case is an example of the former.
Eric
Well Eric, if I am on meds, your shrink should double yours.
You can't spin this into an issue about commerce when it's an issue about Landlords vs. St.Paul exempting PHA from code and ordinance compliance.
Read the State vs. Haase case to learn what discriminatory enforcement is.
You should also brush up on your knowledge of the constitution if you have any idea what it really is.
I have heard of Lays potato chips but not Jays.
You must shop in mexico.
Jeff Matiatos
Chuck,
As a working stiff, how do you find the time to answer all these people and still do your job.
Hell, once I am at work, I get two 15 minute breaks and a 30 minute lunch. What in the hell do you do where you can just sit and answer for your buddy Thune and by extension the City of St. PAul and the Liberal faction ofthe city government known as the Progressive Democrats
5:19 Shaddup.
Jeff,
What was your point in any of that?
The Haase case that we all are familiar with states A homeowner does not abandon his reasonable expectation of privacy in his garage by opening his garage door to gain entry.
Its the privacy clause of the 14th Amendment that's applied to a person-Haase. How is this analogous to the City's power to pass ordinance over landlords that is more strict than federal regulations of their property?
There is a Tenth Amendment in our Bill of Rights. Read that, then read our state Constitution and Article Twelve.
At that point there may be a substantive discussion.
Eric
ps- Jays is a brand of potato chips that are older than you. Its made right here in the USA. Damn good, use to go to the plant and get chips that were still warm from a friends parents. http://www.jaysfoods.com/
Chuck and I were sparring a bit on the landlord issues and his posting at 1:52.
It's a bit off topic for this posting but just the same, to answer your question it has every thing to do with what the landlords are trying to show.
The Haase case simply and clearly describes the requirements to show a case for discriminating enforcement of laws.
The particular facts of that case are irrelevant.
Its the point of law that interests me and the landlords I am sure.
I thought you knew stuff like that ?
Never had Jays chips so cI guess you win that arguement.
Jeff Matiatos
...discriminating enforcement of laws
Based on ones right to privacy which is interpreted under the equal protection amendment (no.14).
You've done nothing to show an legal or logical analysis.
I agree with Haase in the sense that those cops had no damn business in his house.
Eric
Well, if what the landlords have alleged is true about PHA, then yes, there has been discriminating enforcement of laws.
Its not my case to analyze, its for a court of law to do that.
The point you miss is that whether it be a crimminal or civil case, laws cannot be discriminatorily enforced upon some and not others under the same set of circumstances.
Again, your stuck on reading the facts of the Haase case as opposed to reading the point of law.
Jeff Matiatos
Thanks for pointing that out Jeff. In the future, I will try to stay focused. I never knew how much I didn't know.
I don't know what I would do without your well thought out, researched, deliberate opinions. I get so blinded with emotion and such.
I sure hope I can maintain this position, you know the one as a Lobbyist and spokesperson with the Trail Lawyers. What is it you do again? Maybe you should teach some MLL classes.
You're swell guy.
Eric
That last email was sarcasm beginning to end. Jeff, I'm not paid to second guess the courts, neither are you.
You and Chuck tried to tie a law to the Trial Lawyers and I stepped in to let you know, on the surface, it doesn't fall in line with the mission or the history of trial lawyers to line up on the side of corporations.
My only point.
Eric
Chuck,
I am having computer problems, so I cannot read the HUD case identified. I will check it tomorrow on my computer the kids haven't filled full of viruses.
I understand your point about how the Federal gov't is above St. Paul laws. But I must now conclude our Federal gov't is providing unsafe and unhealthy housing or St. Paul is requiring the private sector to meet unnecessarily high housing standards.
Which do you think it is?
Bill Cullen
Bob,
What are you reporting?
The judge has NOT spoken. What you posted is the argument being made by the City.
The headline to this post is not correct. We are waiting for the judge's decision.
Nancy Lazaryan
Bill,
What the court said in that case is that even if the house was about to fall down the City didn't have the power to demo a HUD house.
They can't touch it.
So, sue the Fed's if you like. But you aren't going to win an equal protection case when the Federal government exempts itself from city ordinances.
Cities are formed by the state government to control a section of the state. The public through their elected representatives create ordinances that those who are within those borders have to follow. The state and the Fed exempt themselves from city regulation.
What your equal protection case would say is that since the Fed's won't follow city ordinances than cities (anywhere in the country) have no power to create ordinances.
Well, I don't think the Federal government intends cities not to be able to do anything, only that they can't tell their agencies how to operate.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Bill,
You own or have owned properties in cities that have landlord licensing, does PHA get a license in those cities?
It would be interesting to see if they even bother.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Hi All,
I changed the title.I made a mistake. Thank you Nancy for bringing this to my attention.
I am very busy, I glanced over the document and hadn't throughly read it when I posted it.
From there web site...
"HUD's Public Housing Program
WHAT IS PUBLIC HOUSING?
Public housing was established to provide decent and safe rental housing for eligible low-income families, the elderly, and persons with disabilities. Public housing comes in all sizes and types, from scattered single family houses to highrise apartments for elderly families. There are approximately 1.2 million households living in public housing units, managed by some 3,300 HAs. The U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) administers Federal aid to local housing agencies (HAs) that manage the housing for low-income residents at rents they can afford. HUD furnishes technical and professional assistance in planning, developing and managing these developments. "
So...its a Federal program...
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
There is an “equal protection” court case and there is a policy puzzle.
I understand the limits of a city gov’t with regard to Federal property. I do not understand the ramifications of the limitations on a equal protection case. I will leave that battle to the attorneys & judge.
It is the policy I struggle with. My understanding is that St. Paul’s increase in code standards and aggressive enforcement is to assure housing is safe and healthy (Chuck has repeated that himself). But, I don’t see how that can be accurate unless PHA, with their lower standards, has unhealthy and unsafe housing.
I am not sure how this policy question plays into a court case, but I believe it undercuts St. Paul’s claim that their high standards are necessary.
Bill Cullen.
Bill
No it only means we don't have the ability to go after them legally it doesn't mean that we don't take the effort to inform them and push them to correct.
Saint Paul PHA is one of the best PHA's in the country that is just a fact.
All of the whining in the world won't change that.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Chuck,
I have little experience with PHA, so I accept your statement that they are a great organization.
But, doesn't that torpedo St. Paul's higher code requirements? If PHA is great with lower standards, why do we need higher standards (if the goal is safe and healthy)?
Bill Cullen.
And the city has never taken action against PHA Chuck. One of the landlords told me that the city could not produce to them even 1 record where St. Paul took enforcement action against the city, and all of your whinning is not going to change that.
Bill
I just said we have the same standards just not the ability to force compliance... carrot no stick.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck
So, back to the point of this thread... why does the City not let people move in to vacant buildings and why is a building considered vacant when the power is cut off...
Three die in Minneapolis from carbon monoxide poisoning
Associated Press
Article Last Updated: 10/02/2008 09:53:11 PM CDT
Authorities say two men and a teenager died from carbon monoxide poisoning from a gas generator they were running inside a home in north Minneapolis.
Police got the call around 6:30 p.m. tonight. The two men were dead at the scene, while the 14-year-old died at Hennepin County Medical Center. The teen was the son of one of the men.
Police say the victims apparently were occupying the house illegally. Spokesman Jesse Garcia says the homeowner found the victims when he went to check on the house.
He says the electricity, gas and water to the house had been turned off in the past couple of days.
Under a new state law that went into effect this summer, all homes are required to have carbon monoxide detectors, but authorities say gas generators should never be used inside a structure.
... MORE BLOOD ON YOUR HANDS advocates of shutting down DSI and letting landlords rent buildings that aren't up to code...
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Repke said:
... MORE BLOOD ON YOUR HANDS advocates of shutting down DSI and letting landlords rent buildings that aren't up to code...
Chuck, what kind of twist is this? If DST uses its sleaze to shut off electricity gas and water, then it forces people into dangerous situations.
Chuck, he who twists last twists best.
Your benefactors in the city will be left legally twisting in the wind after all the aggreived parties have their say.
1:30 - that is exactly why they have to force you guys into court and use the law like a hammer because otherwise you would kill people to make an extra buck.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Trouble is Chuck, I'm not a landlord. Just somebody who is appalled what the city's out-of-control circus is doing. I don't think there is any intelligent reasoning behind it at all. Just some creepy bureaucrats building kingdoms, with no one with any guts in the city to stand up to it.
Twist away, Chuck.
1:30 pm
Blood on who's hands Repke? Lanldlords? Because of three ididots who start an gas engine in an enclosed area? What the hell did they think was going to happen to them? It's not the landlords fault that people are stupid that they're dangerous to themselves.
10:02 is right Chuck.
You always blame the landlord.The tenants here that used the generator, except for the 14 year, old knew the consequences of what could happen.
We all should be waiting for a wrongful death law suit right Chuck ?
Just who would be the defendants ?
The city, the landlord ?
Guess we just call it an accident of stupidity.
10:02, the 14 year old is no idiot !
Jeff Matiatos
My father grew up on a farm house with no electricity and no running water. Back then it was common and families knew what was safe; today is different. I agree with Chuck that a house without most utilities is unsafe and should not be occupied.
Where we differ are the requirements to reoccupy the home. St. Paul condemns it and requires it to brought up to code; I say turn the utility back on and move in.
My standard has been in use for decades and is still used by all cities I am aware of (except St. Paul). St. Paul's standard is new and it appears punitive to me.
Very sad what happened in N. Mpls.
Bill Cullen.
One more post before I go enjoy what appears our last warm day...
I appreciate Chuck bringing us back to the purpose of this thread. However, I thnk there is lots of evidence (including a report from St. Paul fire department) that PHA's Housing Quality Standard is significantly lower than St. Paul's code enforcement standard.
I believe my point remains: Either PHA has unsafe and unhealthy housing or St. Paul has unnecessarily high code standards.
Bill Cullen.
Where do you get your information Bill ?
What about PHA housing is unsafe and unhealthy other than your assumptions ?
Post us some verified examples of PHA adverse housing conditions.
It's not so cut and dry as to say that PHA vs. the so called high standard of code justifys your position that PHA has substandard conditions.
You stated in a previous posting that you didn't know much about PHA, isn't that fair to say ?
You have no point Bill because you cannot compare PHAs high performance marks from HUD to justify yours and others positions that the city treats PHA any different.
My opinion you should stay out of it if you don't know what your talking about.
City employee
1:13 PM, I have not explained my question very well. Let me try again.
The city of St. Paul issued a report that PHA's Housing quality standards are significantly less strict than St. Paul's code. I think it said 83% less strict.
The argument I always hear from St. Paul city officials is that St. Paul's housing code is necessary to assure we have safe and healthy housing.
Since PHA's housing is held to a lower standard than St. Paul requires of everyone else, one must conclude that PHA has unsafe and unhealthy housing *OR* St. Paul's housing code is unnecessarily high.
I don't know which is true. Being a city employee, why don't you tell me?
Bill Cullen.
You said st.paul was 83% less strict refers to enforcement.
If what you say is true on this percentage, it only means they don't go around using city inspectors as much as they do with the private sector which means of course there is not going to be hardy any adverse documentation of
living conditions and code violations.
PHA gets inspected by HUD and because HUD gives them such a high performance rating, the city isn't going to use its inspections resources for PHA.
My information tells me that the only way the city is going to inspect anybody or any building of PHA is if tenants call.
Any so called discriminatory enforcement against the private sector is the result of neighbors snitching on each other period.
City employee
With the complaint driven system, it's often the inspectors who call in the complaints.
no, city employee!
I am not talking about enforcement -- I am talking about code standards. St. Paul, according to their own study, holds the private sector to 83% higher standards than HUD holds PHA to. St. Paul calculated this by comparing their code requirements to HQS (the standard HUD uses).
In otherwords, PHA has a lower code standard than what St. Paul says is REQUIRED to have safe and healthy housing.
My question stands: Either PHA has unsafe and unhealthy housing OR St. Paul code standards are unnecessarily high.
Bill Cullen.
PHA tenants live in mold infested houses for years and the city won't do anything. People trapped in PHA elevators for days and city does nothing. People installing electric and gas and St Paul doesn't inspect the work. Gang infestations and crime so bad that the city assigns a special squad of Police to only PHA work. That's what's been testified to already, and we're supposed to take the word of HUD (a government agency) that St. Paul is a high performer? Either this is a joke or you're the joke city employee. Which is it? I think I know already, but would prefer to hear it from you.
It may very well be true that PHA has mold, that people get trapped in elevators, that PHA has gangs, but all these things are in the private sector to so where is the beef ?
I bet you landlords in the private sector have tried to install something without permits to !
Thing is, you haven't been caught yet.
Why PHAs have even had murders take place on their properties even in St.Paul.
What is so damn different of the private sector of landlords as compared to PHAs that put you landlords in a class of your own that deserves special treatment ?
So PHA has some cops monitering PHA tenants.
You should be happy as tax paying citizens that support Public Housing that the cops are going the extra mile to see that any tenant trash in Public Housing doesn't spill over into the private sector.
You don't like Public Housing tell your congressman or legislators to get rid of it .
Then you slumlords will have a monopoly in the rental buisness.
Over and out.
City employee
You can find St.Paul cops in banks,schools,cub foods of all places because TCF is there so give the chief a call you landlords and hire a cop and quit bitching !
City employee
What the bitch is city employee is that St. Paul goes after landlords for all the thing you mention while they turn a blind eye to PHA. And the police thing?.....Cub and Rainbow , etc. pay for those cops. The taxpayer pays for the cops to be on PHA property because of the high crime and yet they shut the landlords down for the same thing because the landlords don't have the taxpayers paying for cops on their property. In fact if anyone calls the police from a rental proeprty, then they classify you as a problem property and send NAZI inspectors to ham ya up if you know what I mean?
I will again point out the obvious...
I have asked a few of you gov't advocates to help me understand:
Since PHA has lower code standards (HQS) than St.Paul, that PHA must have unsafe and unhealthy housing OR St. Paul has unnecessarily code standards. My point remains.
Bill Cullen.
City employee,
At 9:44 PM you called us "slumlords." According to webster.com, slumlord is "a landlord who receives unusually large profits from substandard properties."
Which of us do you think "receives unusually large profits?" Or are you just slandering a whole group of people?
Bill Cullen
Here it is Bill,
Section 902.24 of the Federal Regulations states :
(Physical inspection of properties)
PHAs are notified of health and safety deficiencies at the time of inspection and the PHA is expected to promptly address all health and safety deficiencies.
HUD added paragraph c of section 902.25 that provides (1) inconsistiencies between local code requirements and HUD inspection protocal, or conditions which are permitted by varience or license, or which are pre-existing physical features ; (2) deficiencies in the physical condition of the property, the cause of which were beyond the control of the PHA ( but the PHA is responsible for correction) ; and (3) modernization work in progress in a dwelling unit.
Jeff Matiatos
p.s.
I encourage all interested to look up the Federal regulations to gain a better understanding of the manner in which HUD inspections vs local city codes and city inspections differ with HUD criteria.
Something else of interest is that PHAs that have serious problems such as mold that are not corrected or that have an extensive history of deficiencies can be taken over by a court appointed receiver that will then run the day to day operations of the PHA with authority to access all available operational funds appropriated by the government.
I would be interested in knowing if the district courts can summons the banks that hold the mortages on a landlords property to make repairs if the landlords will not.
To me it seems right that the banks that hold these mortages should step up to the plate instead of putting tenants out because of a landlords refusal to make corrections.
These banks need to have more accountability ie, the housing crisis .
Jeff Matiatos
My 8:39 post is supported by 902.83of the Federal Regulations.
Jeff Matiatos
Jeff et al,
I want to stress: I am not saying PHA has problems -- I honestly do not know!
My point is that St. Paul claims their code standards are the MINIMUM standard for safe and healthy housing. However, St. Paul also says HUD's HQS standards are 83% below St. Paul.
Therefore, we MUST conclude that HUD has unsafe and unhealthy housing OR St. Paul has unnecessarily high standards.
I am not asking a question of HUD, as I suspect they do a great job, my question is directed towards St. Paul's code standards.
Clear as mud?
Bill Cullen.
"I would be interested in knowing if the district courts can summons the banks that hold the mortages on a landlords property to make repairs if the landlords will not."
What repairs are you talking about Jeff? The legitimate repairs or the trumped up fabricated violations the city says exist, but they really don't? And why would the bank be responsible?
You know how when a parent co-signs for their teenager to purchase an auto, if the teenager doesn't pay the co-signer may be held liable ?
Well, the same rule should apply to banks that loan to landlords for property the banks really own as long as there is a mortgage on the building.
Banks should be concerned whether the buildings they finance could be condemned or the certificate of occupancy lost because a landlord has not faithfully and expidiously made legitimate repairs.
I am not attacking landlords just trying to answer the question.
In case you haven't heard, its banks that got us into this national crisis that may cost us 700 billion.
I am trying to say that banks need to step up and defend the landlord with its resources and attorneys when landlords are up against malicious code enforcement and discriminatory enforcement that causes a landlord to expend thousands of dollars for un needed repairs.
After all, it's the failure of banks to be held responcible
for its lending practices that hurts all of us.
Jeff Matiatos
It wasn't the banks that got into this financial mess Jeff. Fanny and Freddie were ORDERED by the government to increase the % of their risky loans until it equaled 50% of their portfolio. If you want to stick the banks with the liability for everything that is going to go wronmg with a rental house, are you also OK with the amount of rents doubling to cover the risk? That's what the bank would do. They price hteir loans which buy the house that the renter lives in based on risk. Renters are not a good risk now days!
Lets see,you want to buy a house and where do you go ?
To a bank right ? Most always as far as I can recall.
Fannie May/Freddie Mac whatever,but isn't it the bank that owns the mortgage on your house ?
Isn't it the bank that forecloses ?
Didn't I read something here that said Mayor Coleman wanted to hold banks responcible for all the vacant homes in St.Paul that needed yard maintenance and to pay delinquent property taxes because the homes were forclosed on ?
Who should pay the property taxes on empty houses ?
The banks because they hold the mortgages.
You wonder why your taxes keep going up because either the city is spending out of control or the tax base is disappearing.
With a 700 ,cash billion dollar infusion from uncle sam, the banks should be able to pay back those delinquent property taxes for all their vacant homes in St.Paul that
sat empty.
If you owed back taxes you would not be off the hook I tell you that.
I would at least make these banks pay back property taxes .
Jeff Matiatos
Hey Jeff. Banks have been around forever. Why do you think many successful, 100 year old banks, all took large volumes of risky loans at the same time?
Is it possible something else encouraged banks to take on these risks? Maybe?
Bill Cullen.
Bill
As to your question, I have answered it several times.
The City enforces the state building code.
PHA has a standard dictated from their bosses in DC.
Neither can do anything else.
You ran for the legislature, convince them to change plumming or electrical standards to PHA's.
The City of Saint Paul can not use PHA standards they MUST use the state building and fire code. PHA does not have to comply with state standards because they are a Federal program. The City informs them and gets voluntary compliance.
YOU may call it what ever you want to call it, but they are what they are...
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
The banks are also doing oppressive credit cards. They should have never deregulated them in the first place.
Good point Chuck.
I suppose you are right if the cities code strictly follows the state building code. I know you have asked us multiple times to show you where it doesn't (and I think we all failed your challenge).
However, this answer is different than previous arguments made out here that St. Paul code standards represents a MINIMUM health and safety standard. So, now St. Paul standard is based on State law.
Got it.
Bill Cullen.
I will tell you why these banks took on risk, it's because they
saw Uncle Sam bailing everyone else
out and they knew that in the chain of our vital economy (banks being a vital part of it), the government would bail them and wall street out.
You seem to me Bill the kind of guy that has gotten alot of loans and you probably know some bankers personally so you defend them.
You go ahead, but banks and wall street are crooks !
Jeff Matiatos
If the bank doesn't pay the taxes Jeff then the state takes the property from them. 3 years is how long they get to not pay and then they lose the property. The government is not out anything if the taxes are not paid.....they make money, they get the property for free, and then sell it.
The taxes are going up because both spending in St Paul is out of control and the city is tearing down its tax base at an unprecedented pace......100 per month!
'You go ahead, but banks and wall street are crooks !"
Are you nuts man? The banks that you think are crooks were ordered by Federal Regulators to make those loans.
Those loans were repackaged and sold several times over as "mortgage backed securities"
to investors. The banks that originated all these loans are long gone. Do your homework.
Bill Cullen carefully tries to take the crosshairs off of the banking industry:
Is it possible something else encouraged banks to take on these risks? Maybe?
Go ahead and try to push this mess on the poor and minorities Bill. You're referring to the Community Reinvestment Act. What's funny is that the Conservatives earlier just this year were talking a different tune when the facts were presented by the Federal Reserve:
CRA was enacted in 1977. The sub-prime lending at the heart of the current crisis exploded a full quarter century later. In the mid-1990s, new CRA regulations and a wave of mergers led to a flurry of CRA activity, but, as noted by the New America Foundation's Ellen Seidman (and by Harvard's Joint Center), that activity "largely came to an end by 2001." In late 2004, the Bush administration announced plans to sharply weaken CRA regulations, pulling small and mid-sized banks out from under the law's toughest standards. Yet sub-prime lending continued, and even intensified -- at the very time when activity under CRA had slowed and the law had weakened.
Janet Yellen, president of the San Francisco Federal Reserve, offers the killer statistic: Independent mortgage companies, which are not covered by CRA, made high-priced loans at more than twice the rate of the banks and thrifts. With this in mind, Yellen specifically rejects the "tendency to conflate the current problems in the sub-prime market with CRA-motivated lending. CRA, Yellen says, "has increased the volume of responsible lending to low- and moderate-income households."
Federal Reserve governor, Ned Gramlich, who warned about the risks of the submprime boom while Alan Greenspan was cheering it on said "banks have made many low- and moderate-income mortgages to fulfill their CRA obligations, they have found default rates pleasantly low, and they generally charge low mortgages rates. Thirty years later, CRA has become very good business."
Bring on the stats Bill. Banks, investors and speculators killed us. The unbridled deregulation and the conservatives letting the market decide has been disastrous.
Eric
Conservatives letting the maeket decide? It was conservatives that wanted to rien in this mess when they saw it was getting out of hand, but no.....Democrats shot it down and then took money from them. If that wasn't bad enough, then your DFL gods ordered Fanny and Freddie to increase thier portfolio of junk loans till it got to 50% ratios. The corruption goes all the way to Washington Eric.
11:12,
Just how long does the landlord get if he doesn't pay his property taxes ? Nil.
I didn't know that banks didn't have to pay property taxes for three years !
So the banks get to sit on these vacant homes for three years while the public waits for revenue for public services ?
What a croc !
You would think that with all the banks involved in this subprime mortgage scam, some if not all of the banks presidents would have the smarts to say I think what Federal regulators are asking is going to have consequences !
Banks and Washington made this mess and Greenspan should be jailed.
Jeff Matiatos
The financial mess been going on for a long time. Terrorism took attention away from it. Regulation since the Great Depression had problems, and deregulation set it off. No one is so stupid as to see the potential for damage, it should have been given attention a long time ago.
I ask a question which I think all responsible people should ask: "Is it possible something else encouraged banks to take on these risks?"
Jeff accuses me of "personally defending banks." and Eric calls me a racist!
A real objective crowd out here!
Bill Cullen.
Taking on thexe loans was not a risk Bill, it was an incentive. One created by the government. They were insured by the government and Fanny and Freddie were buying these things like there was no tomorrow. What were the baks supposed to do, not make the loans and then get accused and sued for not making loans to poor people?
You give the banks credit for having the attention span that you have:
In late 2004, the Bush administration announced plans to sharply weaken CRA regulations, pulling small and mid-sized banks out from under the law's toughest standards. Yet sub-prime lending continued, and even intensified -- at the very time when activity under CRA had slowed and the law had weakened.
Sub-prime lending. Get that? That's not forced on the bamks or mortgage companies by anyone. NO law, Act, or President required banks and loan companies to make these kind of loans.
Bush and the Republicans went after the programs that were working according the experts. The Democrats said no and pointed at predatory sub-prime lending. Keith Ellison was on top of this in the minority in the legislature and Obama was on this with legislation in the state senate and US Senate. I can name 100 Democrats who were going after sub-prime lenders, can you name 2 Republicans? Heck no.
Even Alan Greenspan said "banks have made many low- and moderate-income mortgages to fulfill their CRA obligations, they have found default rates pleasantly low, and they generally charge low mortgages rates. Thirty years later, CRA has become very good business."
So what exactly were Republicans trying to stop? I'll tell you, they were trying to stop any and all regulation of sub-prime lending and threw the bone out there for 'interest-only' loans.
Eric
and Eric calls me a racist!
A real objective crowd out here!
Bill Cullen.
I haven't yet. I'm still waiting to hear your reasoning.
You are about to sell us the BS that the government forced the banks to do CRA low income loans to minorities. The problem is that if every loan defaulted that Freddie and Fannie oversaw, it would only add up to 150 Billion dollars- not 700 billion.
This is not about some foreclosed loans- I actually think its a cover-up for something even more sickening that's going on in the world market. Bears and Sterns, Lehman Bros., AIG, Freddie Mac, Fannie Mae, Wachovia, Washington Mutual Bank,19 other US Banks and about 3 dozen European banks, have gone down the drain. Combined, Washington Mutual and Wachovia alone had more than $1 trillion in assets!
So, you still going to tell this is all about mortgages?
Eric
I am puzzled.
My statement: "Is it possible something else encouraged banks to take on these risks?” That is it folks. Got it Eric? I said something caused this other than bank greed. If you respond, show you get this point.
Eric responds with vicious, personal attacks (hinting I am a racist) and his complaint? Did you read his complaint? The Republicans caused it.
Republicans <> banks!
Eric calls me names repeatedly and then, gives an argument that aligns with my statement: something else encouraged banks to take on these risks.
Surreal.
Bill Cullen.
Again, tell me why the president of a bank and his associates shouldn't be held responcible for presenting bad mortgage packages to consumers ?
it's just banks of all sizes taking advantage of de-regulation
and manipulating the greed of niaeve home buyers who were kidding themselves when they took the bait offered by greedy banks that they could purchase a home for little to nothing down and that they couldn't read the fine print about inflating interests rates .
Was government responcible for de-regulation ? YES.
Were consumers and banks greedy by taking advantage of de-regulation ?YES
But CEOs got paid Millions of dollars just prior to filing bankrupcy.
Ther has to be crimminal liability.
Jeff Matiatos
Hey Jeff......landlords also get 3 years to not pay the taxes and if they don't the state takes the property. Guess what else? If you are a homeowner and lived in the property when the first payment was missed on the taxes, then you don't have to pay for 6 years!
No one has to pay anything any more Jeff.....there's no incentive to.
Ok, thanks for the information.
I never said I wasn't willing to learn a thing or to.
I guess the legislature or city government that decided that landlords and banks can evade paying property taxes, then I guess we start planting the kinds of trees that money grows on so we have revenue to help pay for the public services that property taxes were designed to do.
3 years is a very long grace period if you ask me.
I am very shocked it exists and for what reason.
Anybody care to explain why this 3 and six year grace period exists ?
Jeff Matiatos
In St.Paul I hear we just had a referedum to increas property taxes for schools.
How the hell do you increase taxes on hundereds of homes sitting empty ?
That would mean the folks occupying their homes now are paying out the ASS ?
Jeff Matiatos
Jeff, I am sure there was illegal behavior associated with some loans – there are always people that break laws. But, I am not sure if the industry as a whole acted criminally.
Let me ask you this – our fast food industry knows they are selling unhealthy food to us. We buy it anyway. Who is at fault for that? Should we prosecute McDonald’s executives for selling us products that can be bad for us?
There is some similarity. I personally have taken many loans that are: interest only, negative amortization, floating rates, short terms with balloons. But, I understood the risks and planned for them. Sometimes those risks did cost me money, but that is what happens with high risk loans. If lenders are prosecuted for making loans that often make good sense, then we eliminate options for those of us that understand these financial instruments.
I am not sure that is wise.
Bill Cullen.
Well I can tell you this Bill.
The FDA approves many drugs for use on the public without proper medical research.
It does so because many people just don't want to be the rats that test these drugs and there is pressure from the drug companys to get these drugs to market for profit.
There are however desperate people that need some kind of a cure fast so I suppose those people will want to try anything.
You cannot sue the FDA for letting drugs like viox and other killers drugs get to market.
Food poisning from McDonalds is something that is so different than what we are dealing with here and when it happens, even a bad lot of infected beef or food product can be isolated and managed.
McDonalds doesn't go around pushing bad food, it happens negligently.
These bad loans were pushed on people and executives knew the risks and expected a high yeild.
Didn't work out and look what we have.
Jeff Matiatos
Bill said:
I personally have taken many loans that are: interest only, negative amortization, floating rates, short terms with balloons. But, I understood the risks and planned for them. . . . . If lenders are prosecuted for making loans that often make good sense, then we eliminate options for those of us that understand these financial instruments.
These kinds of loans were developed for people, like developers, who wanted to raise money quickly then pay them off.
The bankers knew they were not meant for mortgages, and started using them - they expected problems. These loans should be used only where they were intended.
I know bankers pushed aggressive loans on people – it happened to me. When I refinanced my home, the banker pushed me hard to take out a 5-7 year ARM with a balloon. His reasoning was solid: The rate was much lower than I could get otherwise and most families move in that time anyway. But I knew that was not the case for me; my wife will never leave this home. We got a 15 year fixed. It was the right answer for us. But I suspect the banker was right – most people do move so why get a higher interest rate fixed for a period the consumer usually doesn’t need?
My point with McDonalds was not about food poisoning, but rather about food that is just really bad for us. And I do think McDonalds, with their aggressive advertising budget, does push their food on us.
America used to be “consumer beware.” Today we are shifting obligations from the consumer to the vendor. That worries me. If a vendor has to look out for my well-being, they are far less likely to give me access to all products and options available. In this day of the internet, being an informed consumer has never been so easy.
Bill Cullen.
Bill,
I disagree on a couple points. There used to be more trust and cooperation. Now a lot of people have loans pushed onto them without understanding them, even though the information was there. A lot of people were poorly equipped to make these decisions, and made assumptions about the loans that were not valid.
The internet is a good source of information, but finding quality and sorting through it accurately is the challenge.
Your point about your ARM loan is well taken. You were careful and asked intelligent questions. We could all learn from that.
PT Barnum said there was a sucker born every minute. Some of them took out mortgages!
The video linked above contains President Clinton's statement on the "responsibility the Democrats have" in this economic meltdown.
It is scarey how the dems protected the problem.....
Post a Comment
<< Home