Saint Paul/ RNC FALLOUT
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posted by Bob at Thursday, September 25, 2008
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Thursday, September 25, 2008
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32 Comments:
RNC fallout, public hearing.
click above
click above
http://radiofreenationblog.blogspot.com/2008/09/public-hearings-rnc-fallout.html
That's the link.
One correction to the story. Council member Russ Stark was also present.
Also - Thank you Bob for posting the link. Americans need to know what really happened.
Marty Owings
Radio Free Nation
www.myradiofreenation.com
If you have a Story or News, call me. I will answer the phone.
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click above for video of protest
1:24 Thune is the best example that I have seen of political courage in my 36 years of being active in politics and government.
It takes no courage to defend the wealthy, or the powerful or the comfortable. It takes great political courage to defend those who's thoughts and ideas aren't popular.
Fletcher is going to be the one who gets the popular accolaides for protecting the town from imagined terrorists. Even though the best he has been able to come up with are two twenty year old kids from Texas that had committed the crime of buying gasoline. As I said Saint Paul PD arrests with much less fan fare much more dangerous people every day of the week.
So, Bob will be able to wave those two kids around and say that was what gave him the right to do what ever other actions he did and what ever failures in command and control should be over looked because Ossama Bin Laudin didn't show up.
There were clearly problems of command and control when there were not arrest teams available to take out non-violent protesters that were refusing to move. The decision to mace or push them rather than to have arrest teams available is not a problem of the officers, it is a problem in command.
At some point that is where all of this will lead us. The citizens of Saint Paul have the right to know who authorizes a team of officers to go into a house without a warrant, or with a warrant with the known wrong address on it. Somebody OK'ed that.
Someone decided how many officers would be line officers and how many would be arrest teams.
We needed less of the first and more of the latter. That way there would have been less tear gassing.
Anyway, I am sure Dave's willingness to allow those who felt that they had been abused the opertunity to speak their minds will not be popular here.
But then democracy isn't a popularity contest, its about making sure all voices are heard.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Chuck said; Anyway, I am sure Dave's willingness to allow those who felt that they had been abused the opertunity to speak their minds will not be popular here.
my response;
Chuck, it is no secret there is folks who participate here who have done some things to embarrass Dave. Doesn't mean they, or the rest of us don't like him. WELL MAYBE ONE PERSON here doesn't like Dave. :-)
Fact is the pick-ens are slim when it comes to looking for code violations on city employee or city officials properties. Dave provides ample oppurtunity. Dave shouldn't be upset with anyone here. After all the violations were legitimate, and most the folks who participate or read here have to keep their properties up due to regular inspections. I think the majority here find Daves un-politically correct down to earth attitude refreshing.
Like I said in the past, Dave fits in here at A Democracy with us normal folks more so then over there at E Democracy where grammar and spelling become weapons of jousting for the sport of building ones own ego at the cost of humiliating another.
Honestly though, I wasn't sure what to think of the allegations of brutality and the searches over the RNC. Over the years Dave has used different subjects to grand stand a political career. Then Martin chimed in on this subject, and folks Martin has earned his respect from me. I believe Martin. And since I believe in what Martin has presented to me on this subject, I have to believe in Dave.
Bob they showed the film last night of the duplex on Iglehart where the police came with a warrant to enter 151 and the residents informed them that they live in 149. The police entered 151 then broke through the attic door and entered 149 with guns drawn. It was unreal to watch and should never happen in this country.
They arrested...NOBODY!
I got some real concerns about the young man who says he was beaten and tortured in Ramsey Co. Jail. Just me, but I don't buy it. What would make this young man important enough to be the only one singled out for that treatment? It is a pretty bazaar tail of torture he tells and if it happened someone should go away for a long time, and if it didn't happen this young man needs some professional help.
As to most of the other charges they tend to be command and control decisions to push, or mace or otherwise move crowds instead of first attempting to arrest nonviolently.
Some day those in command will explain why they made those decisions. What lead them to decide that it was better to tear gas the crowd and get them all running rather than to start arresting them.
I have worked with the police for most of my adult life, my better half is a police reserve. I have nothing but respect for the men and women who are police officers... but people are responsible for their decisions and nobody made Bob Fletcher God.
As to Thune "grand standing" most of the big issues Thune has taken on were not very popular.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Bob quit erasing peples coments.What are you afraid of.your the same as edemocracy and will fall when the city suits do.You wimp!
REPKE STATED-At some point that is where all of this will lead us. The citizens of Saint Paul have the right to know who authorizes a team of officers to go into a house without a warrant, or with a warrant with the known wrong address on it. Somebody OK'ed that.
--Chuck where was Thune when code enforcement wanted to get inside and have warrentless searches for code infractions only to condemn?
Bob can you kiss Thunes ass anymore?Theres more then one person who here who doesn't like Thune.You aren't for justice,your out for a name.Stick to your views and quit kissing the other sides ass.Your not running for president.
I'm out...........The day Bob compared the property rights guys to Thune is the day I'm out.See Ya.
Jim
To Jim at 7:23-
I didn't say I'd vote for Dave.
I am entitled to my opinion! Even though I don't agree with Dave on many issues, I do like his character.
I value your opinion Jim. I surely will feel a loss if you run away from the good fight here at A Democracy Town Hall.
Anonymous said...
Bob quit erasing peples coments.What are you afraid of.your the same as edemocracy and will fall when the city suits do.You wimp!
7:14 PM
The only comment I deleted here was an anonymous post with vulgar language.
"Anonymous" expected me to be responsible for the childish gibberish. I will say it once again! IF, you want to leave vulgar meaningless comments here, verify your identity to me, sign your name to the comment and have at making a fool of yourself. In the meantime I am responsible for anonymous post and I won't take credit for something I wouldn't say!
Can't we all just get along?
The little punk who claims he was tortured in the jail is a damn liar.
Clearly he is an anarchist. Here are his "groups" listed on his myspace page:
"Groups: Peace & Justice, Anarchist Collective, The Anti-Hate League, The Loyal Nine, Revolution!!!, Mind Revolution, Anti-Fascist Resistance, Black Bloc Anarchists Collective"
And here is a comment someone named Gabe left on his myspace page:
"Sep 22 2008 5:10 PM
I knew you were gonna get arrested, didnt think you'd become the new Jesus Christ. Good luck dude."
Obviously he went down there with nothing but malice on his mind. His myspace friend knew he was going to be arrested!
He claims that while he was being tortured, he was calling out to God for mercy. Quote: "I was screaming, crying, begging God for mercy," he said".
Funny he would call out to God because he claims he is a "Taoist" on his myspace page. Here is what religioustolerance.org states about Taoism:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/taoism.htm
"they do not pray as Christians do; there is no God to hear the prayers or to act upon them"
He is a liar, an anarchist, and a drama queen! He has a photograph in his pics of him being carried, like a log, by police officers in Florida when he was arrested for a protest over the everglades.
He set his profile to private, so you can't see his pictures any more. But I saw it before he set it to private.
How about that post Bob where you said people could swear ?
Isn't swearing vulger ?
While swearing and vulgarity are somewhat different, you do have a bit of a double standard and at times your double standard is obvious when Chuck and Eric post.
Jim
Jim what don't you understand? Bob states that as long as you take responsibility for your posts by including your identity you may post whatever comments you feel necessary to make a fool of yourself! So reveal your real identity and enjoy making a fool of yourself. The vulgar language does not add credibility to anything you say, in fact it takes away.
To get back on point, there are really two discussions here.
Dave Thune: people disagree with his political positions, sometimes very very much so. Does that make him a bad person? Bob says "no", and I'd agree. I might never vote for him, but I have good reason to believe he's a good person of decent character who looks out for his constituents, the way a good city council person should.
Code Enforcement: On the other hand, Thune is a senior figure in a government that pushes some VERY dubious policies (the vacant building ordinance, holding landlords to absurd standards, trying to "clean up" the city by nagging property owners to death), and uses DSI as the foot soldiers in that policy. The city bureaucracy, especially DSI, needs to be gutted like a Cat III vacant building. And that will only happen when the current regime - Dave Thune's party - is defeated at the polls and a new council can reverse the excesses of the current one.
Discuss.
Luv Ya Martin Owings at RadioFreenationblog teaching Widgets http://www.widgetbox.com/widget/sharon4council
Great Blog, Who care's if deleted
5:34 Excellent! I wished you would have coppied them. Look I am as left wing as they come but I didn't just fall off of the turnip truck either.
I was thinking that he just had mental health issues. I didn't think that he had bad PR motives. I hope somebody else has that stuff.
And 10:09 on the Thune/enforcement issue again I offer the same challenge I have offered for the last 2 years. Find one property in Ward 2 during the twelve (1990-97 and 2004-now) plus years Thune has been on the council where the owner asked for additional time and Thune didn't make sure that the owner got it.
So, its a little hard to say that he is the guy out there demoing houses.
As Bob said, the reason Thune gets the heat is he is the guy with the most "lived in property" on the council.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
And that will only happen when the current regime - Dave Thune's party - is defeated at the polls and a new council can reverse the excesses of the current one.
Discuss.
OK.
Since the political parties don't decided the outcome, only the candidate, how are you going to put forth candidates who can win on the pro-landlord/anti-code enforcement platform?
These changes are very popular with the public and gives them a sense of safety and accountability. More people want MORE enforcement, not LESS.
Of all of the forums, groups, events and divisions in Saint Paul, only one place (here) talks about less code enforcement is a good thing.
In other words, you don't have the numbers to even hold a small town forum, let alone overturn one city council seat.
You're on the wrong side of a popular issue with the public and the only way to change that is to present your argument to the public. Oh, and hope they buy it.
Eric
Eric said.............These changes are very popular with the public and gives them a sense of safety and accountability. More people want MORE enforcement, not LESS.
Ciani says..................Your right Eric more code enforcement has done a great job in the city.Especially on the Eastside,Its never looked better.
In my view the city looks worse now then it ever has.Must be those predatory lending.
Tim Ciani
Eric lets put it this way.Lets take PHA housing that is inspected under HUD standards to assure that its safe and up to snuff.You all talk about how PHA is well maintained.Now take this housing and put it around all your elitist friends,summit avenue,highland and crocus hill in high concentrations.Then will see how fast you folks want it removed from these areas.WHY?Because its not about the housing its about whats in them that you people are after.Is this the fact of why PHA is usually in high rises and high concentrations in less desirable areas?
So when the private landlord was renting to these types of people and the city wanted to move in new yuppy blood of course theres going to be a problem to them and the city.Is it right?NO!
Tim Ciani
Chuck
I took screenshots of his entire myspace page. But, I could kick myself for not copying the photo. Authorities have probably seen his page. But if they do not have photo copies of his page I will be sure that they do.
You all talk about how PHA is well maintained.
Not this man. I have the same view as I did growing up, PHA 'projects' are piss holes for the most part. Its a way to keep the poor in one confined area with standards that are less desirable.
Sorry Tim, I'm not the one who thinks highly of PHA- in general.
Eric
Jim said...
How about that post Bob where you said people could swear ?
my response; I can't allow an anonymous person to take meaningless vulgar pot shots at a poster who uses his or her identity.
Jim Said...
Isn't swearing vulger ?
my response; sure is.
Jim Said;
While swearing and vulgarity are somewhat different, you do have a bit of a double standard and at times your double standard is obvious when Chuck and Eric post.
my response;
We all know Eric and Chuck are real people. They have a high public profile within the city.
They use their name when they post and accept responsibility for the things they say. They are also in the minority of opinion here and are subjected to a lot of abusive language and they continue on even under these adverse conditions.
Jim, you should hope this blog due to citizen participation doesn't take a turn to the far left, because THEN you will be in the minority here and appreciate my effort to support your participation.
What would this blog be like if we all agreed with each other? It would be boring and unproductive.
What did the folks over at E Democracy do when they didn't agree with many of us here? They got rid of us!
Here at A Democracy we will never seek to silence those who do not agree with the majority of us. We can't have a Democracy without debate.
This is a communist blog. The will of the people are trampled by lawsuits here. The right of dissent is flushed out as soon as possible when people don't talk your lingo. I think Bob is a communist agent working undercover.
These changes are very popular with the public
So was slavery, for a while.
Look, the public "supports" these changes because they have no idea what the effects of these changes is going to be.
These changes are going to make it impossible to get a mortgage in Saint Paul, above and beyond the effects of the credit crunch. It's going to drive property values way, way down.
The public that "supports" DSI have no idea of the consequences of this support; they see surface effects ("bad" neighbors being punished). And the City Council is doing nothing to educate them further.
These changes are going to make it impossible to get a mortgage in Saint Paul, above and beyond the effects of the credit crunch. It's going to drive property values way, way down.
These changes are going to make it impossible to get a mortgage in St Paul? Good Lord, have you been under a rock for the last two weeks?
Eric
I agree Eric.Sad,but I agree.See folks we can agree from time to time.
Tim Ciani
I had to work late and couldn't attend.
Pity, because I've got footage of Dan Dobson, the scruffy, unshaven guy that identified himself as a NLG legal observer, (after several minutes of allowing him to make a complete ass of himself) offering to commit a felony. Would have been a hoot to stick that video up in his face.
I didn't realize who he was at the time, but since have found out that Dobson was disbarred in '93 for an act that was not specified on the Bar's website.
Maybe I'll get lucky and he'll show up with Michael Cavlan.
This is nothing more than another opportunity for our local developmentally stunted, 50 and 60 year old children to stamp their little feet and demand that everyone pay attention to them.
I was glad to hear the Thune plans to hold another one of these dog and pony shows, and hope to be able to attend.
Hey Swiftee......go to Edemocracy and do some searching. There was something in there a few years ago about Dobson and why he was disbarred. I can't recall what it was right now, but after I read it, it fit right in with the mentatlity at Edem.
These changes are going to make it impossible to get a mortgage in St Paul? Good Lord, have you been under a rock for the last two weeks?
Um, no - and nothing about the current economic situation changes my statement.
If someone shoots you with a .38, and then someone else shoots you with a .44 magnum, do you disregard the .38 wound?
If the national economy and credit market weren't falling apart, St. Paul's housing policies would STILL make it impossible to get a mortgage.
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