Saint Paul/ Murders Continue, still no effective crime strategy from the DFL Leaders of the city
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posted by Bob at Thursday, June 26, 2008
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Thursday, June 26, 2008
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52 Comments:
By RODRIGO ZAMITH , Star Tribune
Last update: June 26, 2008 - 2:21 PM
A 26-year-old St. Paul man died this morning after being shot multiple times.
The incident happened along the 700 block of Van Buren Avenue around 1:30 a.m. Desmond Brooks Clark was pronounced dead on the scene after paramedics attempted to revive him.
Police said they have identified multiple persons of interest but do not have a suspect in custody. Though a motive for the shooting has not yet been determined, police said they do not believe it was random.
KSTP-TV reported that the victim's mother said she does not believe her son was the intended target and that he had a 2-year-old daughter.
"The investigation is still at an early point and we don't know much yet," said St. Paul Police spokesman Peter Panos. "We expect to have more information later today."
It is the city's ninth homicide of the year and the second this week. Anyone with information is asked to call 651-291-1111.
Rodrigo Zamith • 612-673-4895
All the city's energy is tied up in being screwed up. They cannot deal with anything else.
Let's compare the FBI's 2007 crime statistics to those in 2000 (when Norm Coleman was mayor):
Total Part 1 Crimes are down by 28% with the biggest decline (-30%) in property crimes and defined as Robbery, Burglary, Theft, Motor Vehicle Theft and Arson). Personal crimes declined by 6% (and are defined as Homicide, Rape and Aggravated Assault).
And yes, the number of homicides also declined from 2000 to 2007. However, the percentage reduction is somewhat misleading due to the (thankfully) small numbers from year to year. However, pro-rating the nine homicides to date indicates that the annual number will also decline in 2008 from 2000.
It's simplistic (but typical of this blog) to hold the "Leaders of the City" solely responsible for crime in St Paul. But I guess if you're going to do so, you'd have to then solely credit those same leaders for the improvements over the past seven years.
BTW, the data is here:
http://www.stpaul.gov/DocumentView.asp?DID=4319
-- and, in case that link gets truncated:
http://tinyurl.com/6nkkmy
S. O. Journer
To S. O. Journer,
Hitler also made claims like that. His ability to do things with mirrors impressed some people in the short term (before the collapse).
St. Paul's alchemists claim to be able to turn shit into gold. To fully evaluate the situation, you also have to factor in the upcoming collapse.
You can spin numbers any way you liek 12:18, but the botom line is: do oyu feel safer in the city now than you did 8 years ago. I don't! Who does? Please don't all chime in at once!
The crime control package in St. Paul is blame the landlord, tear down houses and pass the buck.
Journer said-
It's simplistic (but typical of this blog) to hold the "Leaders of the City" solely responsible for crime in St Paul. But I guess if you're going to do so, you'd have to then solely credit those same leaders for the improvements over the past seven years.
my response-
The LEADERS (if you can call them that)have BLAMED innocent business owners and landlords for crime in this city for years. THIS blog has put the BLAME where it belongs, on CRIMINALS and our politicians charged with doing something about crime!
And all we ask is of our civic leaders is to fullfill their responsibilities to US and come up with a RESPONSIBLE CRIME STRATEGY that doesn't involve passing the blame onto innocent people.
Citizens call the police and OFTEN the police do not even file a report if the incident meets a certain criteria. This in and of itself keeps the crime statistics down.
Our police force is guided and driven by politics.
Journer, where is the FBI statistics link. The citys statistics aren't credible.
The dipshits that took over are still riding on the constructive and positive work of the past - the core city turned around which has a big input on numbers. The current approach is morally bankrupt, and will lead to no good.
Flash the ID's Court House Security
http://www.twincities.com/ci_9712550?IADID=Search-www.twincities.com-www.twincities.com
Hilarious responses.
First we have "7:55" proving the validity of Godwin's Law of Internet threads ... AND in record time (lol)! (if you're confused by the reference, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law .)
Then we have "8:50" who claims the numbers are being spun ... a standard but limp response of someone who has no factual data with which to argue. But I suspect "8:50" is used to being, er, limp.
Finally we have Bob's rejoinder -- again without data or substantiation. Obviously it's part of the "Great Conspiracy" which apparently started only after Norm Coleman left office.
It's one more shining example of why some of us read this blog from time to time -- sheer comic relief.
S. O. Journer
Well, well in the name of Truth comes another.
Sojourner,
Welcome to the scrappy minority on this blog.
These folks on here are not interested in facts.
Feeling safe, is not the same as actually being safe 8:50. An example of yet another problem with this blog, their subjective 'feelings' are put on equal grounds with the facts.
Take it easy on them, they're not playing with full decks here.
Eric
By the way, DESMOND, is a 1st cousin to a close friend of mine. This family also lost a 10 year old relative to a car accident in Chicago a few days ago, so it's really tough for them right now.
Journer,I asked you to post the FBI link YOU referred to and this was the best response you could come up with.
Journer said,
Finally we have Bob's rejoinder -- again without data or substantiation. Obviously it's part of the "Great Conspiracy" which apparently started only after Norm Coleman left office.
me continued-
I don't believe in YOUR great conspiracy theory. We have a few ROTTEN apples in city government surrounded by GOOD people who are SICK and tired of working with a few degenerates.
1:51
The lawsuits don't threaten anything about my way of life- NOTHING.
I'm not a landlord in the city
I'm not a tenant in the city
I don't work for the city
I don't work in the city
My wife doesn't work for the city
My wife does work in the city
My kids go to a Montessori in another city.
Just how does my calling out the bs on here, protect anything related to my lifestyle.
Since you can't explain your continued failure to prove to your case, maybe you can explain your statement.
Or, you can show us that you just pulled it out of your ass with your other statements.
Eric
Bob,
I won't disagree, or never have, that there may very well be a few rotten apples.
The problem is that the suits and the posts go after the whole entity. Theu write and argue that the officials in the city AND county conspired to do...
Which is it you believe?
A few bad apples or a conspiracy among elected officials, regular employees, party officials, lawyers, cops, judges and inspectors?
Eric
A few bad apples, and a lot of city employees, who won't rock the boat, and don't have the integrity to stand up to them. Most of the good ones have gotten out, and what is left will be determined if it is a conspiracy.
Journer, you are the comic relief, although of course Eric agrees with you.
"Then we have "8:50" who claims the numbers are being spun ... a standard but limp response of someone who has no factual data with which to argue. But I suspect "8:50" is used to being, er, limp."
Ask your mama if I'm limp you shitsucker. I don't need any facts, I live in the city. The statistics you mention mean nothing, they're skewed, made up and distorted.
Eric, "Birds of a feather flock together".
No Eric, I do not believe ALL city officials conspired to defraud folks of their homes.
I have said in the past I do not see the merits of the RICO accusations. I am not an attorney.
I believe landlords who have rented to low income folks with behavioral issues were targeted to put them out of business. I know innocent woman, children and handicap folks have been condemned to the streets by a callous city government.
Civil rights have been violated and circumvented.
Eric,
Thanks for the welcome. Truth is hard for folks here to acknowledge. A sign of the times, I guess.
------
Bob,
Nice editing job on your post ... you asked for the reference after I made my second post. Not the first time you've gone back to edit your own posts (or delete them when you get overly "emotional" per your own admission).
I've provided the link for the data ... can you offer any alternate source of data? Ignore the data if you wish -- it's not the first time that you've made accusations that are unfounded and illogical.
(This blog's motto should be "Don't let the Truth stand in the way of a Good Story.")
------
"8:50" (aka "3:07") -- I've obviously struck a nerve. Sorry -- I shouldn't have made light of your disability. Your wife said it is really not a big deal. Honest.
S. O. Journer
3:07 wrote:
"Ask your mama if I'm limp you shitsucker. I don't need any facts, I live in the city. The statistics you mention mean nothing, they're skewed, made up and distorted."
-----
Let me emphasize the sentence that makes my point:
I don't need any facts,
I don't need any facts,
I don't need any facts,
I don't need any facts,
I don't need any facts,
I don't need any facts,
I don't need any facts,
I don't need any facts,
I don't need any facts,
I don't need any facts,
I don't need any facts,
I don't need any facts,
I don't need any facts,
I don't need any facts,
I don't need any facts,
I don't need any facts,
I don't need any facts,
Yes, that is obviously true but, the courts do. So, all you're left with are your ghost stories and imagination.
Eric
Bob, since I have been on here I have respected your view because we are not that far apart.
I cannot speak to individual mishaps and incompetence. I won't and haven't argued that it didn't happen. I even agree that some landlords may be targetted because of their tenants.
But, I cannot give any time to trying to beleive these stories of conspiring and mass corruption- all against the lanlords when their are many others that do business with the city that it would be easier and actually benefical to those who are corrupt.
Why shake down these broke landlords when builders, and contractors have more money and discretion with their money?
Nothing about this case makes sense and even their attorneys have had a hard time proving anything- which shouldn't be so hard if corruption is so rampant through the city and county.
Eric
Journer, you provide us with a DFL city website link which has the credibility of a prison con and you refer to it as FBI statistics. Where is the FBI website link?
Many folks here have experienced first hand the lying deceitful nature of this city's leadership.
Then you go on to say-
it's not the first time that you've made accusations that are unfounded and illogical.
my response-
Let us hear of your examples of unfounded and illogical accusations.
If you are going to slander me have the guts to use your real identity. We can have a judge decide the integrity of this forum and whether you are liable to me for slander.
get Journers IP from googles Bob
Eric, decreasing private affordable rental housing with behavioral issues is not a crime strategy. In fact it increases crime.
The leaders of this city can do away with every single affordable private rental with behavioral issues and we will still have anti social misfits raising hell on our streets. They will be forced as they are into over crowding situations to make rent affordable. Have any of you ever lived in a house that is over crowded?I HAVE, IT'S HELL!
Here is a example of over crowding. Take a 10 gallon aquarium. Put 2 rats in it the first day with one piece of cheese. Add a rat every day there after and do not increase the food supply and before long you will see the rats killing each other. Over crowding and despair over financial situations is a recipe for disaster.
This is a common occurrence, a teenage boy is selling drugs from the rental property his mother has rented, there is a lot of traffic at the rental home he and his family inhabit. The neighbors are livid and want something done about it.
So, Kathy Lantry or some other willing council member comes running to the rescue to rid the community of the evil doers and shut the rental down. BIG HERO!It's good politics for her since she gets the credit from the neighbors for closing the property down. This BUYS VOTES! This teenage boy in many cases has brothers and sisters and a mother who are totally innocent of any wrong doing and yet they are condemned out of their home, put out on the streets and made to suffer. The drug dealing kid most often is never charged with any crime and moves on to another neighborhood with mom to raise hell all over again. Then some other council member or the same can play HERO all over again. This is just one example of many mentioned in the lawsuits with evidence to back the allegations up.
My crime strategy-
Investigate, arrest, prosecute and lock up offenders. I know this is more expensive than chasing them out of their home. But it is more responsible than violating innocent folks rights.
Bring back the parole board and provide educational opportunities in prison to provide hope for a future to these cons. Educated folks statistically commit fewer crimes.
We have to keep the older criminals who have been determined habitual offenders in prison for longer periods of time and separate them from younger prisoners just entering the system. These younger men gravitate to these older guys and prison becomes nothing more than crime school. A place where criminals strengthen alliances and learn new ways to rip off the public.
I will do a topic on crime and punishment in the future, that should be interesting with the diversity of posters here.
I think there may have been some mistakes made with information here. The guy in Golden Valley told the city council he lived there,,,,all the blog did was report what he said. It's interesting that some people are more interested in minor and infrequent faults they can find here, but don't say a word about a city who destroys evidence to get away with crime, doesn't so any type of investigation at all regarding allegations of corruption and just keeps on violating the law because they think they can.
Ok maybe someone can answer a question for me....
If crime is down considerably in St.Paul/Ramsey Co. why was it necessary to build a bigger jail to hold the increasing numbers of offenders/inmates?
Ok I know the prison system does not only include St.Paul but it does give a person an idea of crime rates.
Stillwater Prison statistics drug offenses only;
1989 - 173 inmates
2007 - 1,887 inmates
overall inmates;
1989 - 3,032
2007 - 9,214
I am having trouble comprehending a decrease in crime by looking at theses figures... and yes I do have the paperwork directly from the prison in front of me... we are starting the first CA/Meth Annonymous meeting there soon for the drug offenders that will be gettong released in the next two years.
Looking forward to an explanation....yes I am still around...just been lurking so to speak and busy with my business (property management business) and my school studies (criminal justice).
Nancy O.
I need to make a clarify that my info was on the state of Minnesota's Department of Corrections not Stillwater prison.
Nancy O.
Well well Journer, you are starting to look like you are full of it. SEE YOU IN THE BACKYARD.
Nancy O asks a reasonable set of questions regarding why prison population increases when St Paul reports a declining number of criminal offenses.
One explanation is that the length of sentence increased starting in 1989. From the DoC website:
1989: The legislature began its annual passage of crime bills, substantially increasing criminal penalties. Eventually, sentencing guidelines were doubled for all crimes in the higher severity levels, time was increased from 17 to 30 years before parole eligibility for life sentences for first-degree murder, and life without parole was created for certain crimes. (see http://www.doc.state.mn.us/aboutdoc/history/1984-1999.htm)
Based on this, it's not surprising that the number of inmates in custody increases over time since the "holding time" lengthens for each cohort that enters prison. In other words, starting around 1989, each incoming cohort would remain imprisoned longer than the cohort that was being released. As a result, the number of inmates in custody increases over time because they're being held in custody longer.
Moreover, the length of presumptive sentences under the guidelines is longer for crimes against person as compared to property crimes. While there was a decline in both property crimes and crimes against persons, the decline was greater for property crimes. Thus, the cohort of prisoners entering DoC's institutions would have lengthier sentences on the average in 2007 than in 2000.
And, finally, you're comparing disparate periods of time and using a data point that doesn't correlate to whether criminal activity is declining.
To the first point, the report I cited covered 2000 to 2007 while your data runs from 1989 through 2007.
But more importantly, the number of new commitments to the Commissioner of Corrections is a better gauge; however, that number excludes commitments to the Ramsey County workhouse (which are predominately resulting from property crimes -- crimes against person are almost exclusively going to result in state commitments. It also excludes juvenile commitments.
Hope that helps.
S. O. Journer
Thank you...
But if I recall a few years back wasn't the reason for building the new Ramsey Co. jail also due to the increase of incarceration and being overcrowded...? I am under the impression that the ramsey Co jail is more of a holding jail/short term while awaiting court/sentencing....correct me if I am wrong.
Nancy O.
Nancy O.,
Yes, there was overcrowding in the jail (or "adult detention facility" to use current parlance). But that occurred back in the late 1990s the decision to replace it was made in 2000.
The stats that show a decline in the crime rate are from 2007 and there's no current report of over-crowding to my knowledge.
S. O. Journer
Well by looking at the stats on the city of St.Pauls site... I don't see a decrease in crime rates. I do realize that some of them are estimated...
http://www.ci.stpaul.mn.us/DocumentView.asp?DID=1129
I am curious as to how many lay offs have taken place due to the decrease in crime that is suppose to be happening in St.Paul...?
I am interested for my studies...thanks!
Nancy O.
Your still a shitsucker you schmuck! On rare occasions, it's necessary to suspend the decency codes here to deal with vermin like you. You seem to have all the answers to everything, and along with them you expect others to disbelieve what they see with their own eyes. You try to dispell the statistics Nancy O talks about with BS about what the Legislature did 20 years, but the reality still remains that crime is worse today than it was last year and the year before that and also 20 years ago. How can you even expect us to believe that crime is getting better when night after night there's a new story on the news about someone getting whacked.....not to mention the gunfire and shootings we hear nightly in our neighborhoods that never makes it to the news? I think your a politician just trying to put a spin on your failed and illogical crime control policies. Go burn another landlord or tear down a house or something....we don't buy your BS here.
Hey S.O. Journer
Are your statistics taking into account the "Secret" call in center to the Police for PHA properties and the statictics those calls generate that are being kept seperate from the rest of the citys crime stats?
"I am curious as to how many lay offs have taken place due to the decrease in crime that is suppose to be happening in St.Paul...?"
ummm....the answer to your question would be zero my dear. In fact I think it's increasing. Didn't they just hire more Police and have a big fight because some council members thought it wasn't enough? Listen to the council meetings when they discuss hiring more cops. They sure don't make it sound like crime is on the decrease.
Bob writes:
Hi All,
You can find Journers 2:36 post in the Backyard
Except, of course, you can't. Bob "accidentally" (and conveniently) deleted it.
This deleted post was in response to his request that I provide "examples of unfounded and illogical accusations." They were cogent and relevant ... so they got "banished" and "vanished"
Hilarious.
Next.
S. O. Journer
11:18 AM
my response-
It was an honest mistake Journer.
Have the guts to step into the Backyard and face the truth. You know what you stated, put it out there again. We will go through ONE issue at a time.
Your credibility is faltering. You post statistics and make false accusations about those statistics and then you dodge the question when asked for proof.
Nancy has posted enough information that shows crime has increased significantly.
You know what I believe? You are a DFL political hack here attempting to handle damage control.
More misinformation from Journer
Nancy O.,
Yes, there was overcrowding in the jail (or "adult detention facility" to use current parlance). But that occurred back in the late 1990s the decision to replace it was made in 2000.
The stats that show a decline in the crime rate are from 2007 and there's no current report of over-crowding to my knowledge.
S. O. Journer
my response-
Journer, you should check your knowledge. There is over crowding in the new jail. Inmates have slept on the floor. inmates sleeping on the floor and dangerous over crowding issues all awhile we have a relatively NEW jail sitting vacant. The tax payers spent MILLIONS on this relatively new jail sitting vacant.
Journer, shovel me some more shit and I'll throw some dirt on it and sow public opinion.
Nancy, it is really great to see you posting. :-) Missed you!
Hi Nancy
I miss you too!
Bob writes:
There is over crowding in the new jail. Inmates have slept on the floor. inmates sleeping on the floor and dangerous over crowding issues all awhile we have a relatively NEW jail sitting vacant. The tax payers spent MILLIONS on this relatively new jail sitting vacant.
What are you talking about? The "new Jail" is both "over crowded" and "sitting vacant?"
Hilarious.
Next:
You post statistics and make false accusations about those statistics and then you dodge the question when asked for proof.
No, I posted statistics and you made the accusation that they weren't accurate.
God help you, but you truly are dense.
I think Eric is correct: "folks on here are not interested in facts."
S. O. Journer
Eric wouldn't recognize a fact if it bi thim in the hinder, and you seem to be much the same. Why not pack it in Journer? You're way out matched here.
I don't think Bob meant the "new" jail, I think he was referring to the "relatively new jail" menaing the one the Sheriff just vacated for bigger digs not too long ago because he couldn't house all the model citizens in this time of decreasing crime.
Yes it is true that the old river front jail was overcrowded, it is also true that the new jail is already having issues with being overcrowded as well. There are inmates sleeping on mats on the floor much of the time.
Again I ask if crime is decreasing I would think with all the budget issues there would be lay offs in the criminal justice field... I have not heard of any and in fact all I have heard of is how the work loads continue to increase and they are recruiting more law enforcement.
Next area of question I have is; its obvious the current crime strategy hasn't been a very successful one and I believe the stats for offenders that re-offend are very high... wouldn't that tell you that its time to make some changes within the system to help rehabilitate the offender and give them the tools they need to be able to come out and be productive citizens..?
Currently it is near impossible for a felon to make it in todays society. I realize that an offender needs to be held accountable for thier actions but onces they have proven themselves and taken responsibility for those actions they also should be given a chance at the new life they may be seeking so they don't feel the need to re-offend to survive. Bob made a point earlier, criminals do learn new criminal activity while being jailed and there are stats to support it, it would make much more sense to teach inmates new traits and educate them so they start a good life when they are released, the end results would be more cost efficient too.
Nancy O.
Nancy O.
I seen the pictures of your home being demolished, who took the windows out of it.
If it wasn't you, who did and why could they touch them.
Journer said-
What are you talking about? The "new Jail" is both "over crowded" and "sitting vacant?"
Hilarious.
Next:
my response-
Listen shit shoveler, learn how to read. The NEW jail is over crowded. 2:35, has reading comprehension skills 2:35 said,
Anonymous said...
I don't think Bob meant the "new" jail, I think he was referring to the "relatively new jail" menaing the one the Sheriff just vacated for bigger digs not too long ago because he couldn't house all the model citizens in this time of decreasing crime.
2:35 AM
Journer, you keep sticking your foot in your mouth.
S. O. Journer 9:39 PM
statistics are not always accurate, because there are just to many people posting on A Democracy from E Democracy.
Most people on A-Democracy were tiered of Democratic rule at E-Democracy.
So we can't even have a just debate here, without the E-Democracy DFL people infiltration of A Democracy.
8:24... I am guessing the windows were taken out and kept by the same person that took the cement mixer and other materials form the garage that had no violations yet was removed...
As for why... St.Paul had a policy of thier own and I honestly feel there is a connnection with the company that contracted for the demo and Mr.Steve Magner for a kick back.. I know the threats I recieved from Mr.Steve Magner and will never forget them, some do not believe me but everyone has a right to thier opinion, I know the truth and so does the man above. (Thats all thats important to me) We all pay the price for our mistakes as I did, I feel someday so will they.
Nancy O.
For our S.O. Journer;
Because not all law enforcement agencies provide complete data for a given year, it is sometimes necessary for the UCR Program to estimate crime at the Metropolitan Statistical Area, state, and national levels. For agencies that did not report data, the UCR Program staff assign the same proportional crime volumes based on the crime statistics of similar areas within a state. The UCR Program staff consider the size of an agency, type of jurisdiction, and geographic location in the estimation process. The UCR Program staff use a similar procedure for estimating the number of arrests for the Nation.
I'm sorry Journer, I didn't welcome you aboard.
I don't agree with you in the least, but, I am grateful you are here!
8:46 wrote:
"Most people on A-Democracy were tiered of Democratic rule at E-Democracy."
Maybe that explains why they like the Communist atmosphere of A-Democracy- the "Believe as we do- or we'll attack you. Facts be damned. Logic is not needed. You MUST believe as we do or your slime."
Actually, they can't stand having a debate with any injection of intellect here. They cannot figure out how to lay out an argument and support. They also are mostly a bunch of limp chicken shits that hide behind anonymous (or so they think) and threatened those who use their names. True Patriots don't hide.
Hell, these people are so out of it that they ran Tom Swift off. What anti-government, anti-DFL group could reject one of the biggest a-holes to the DFL as being socialist and brainwashed? Only on a-democracy.
Sit back long enough and just poke them a little and watch them contradict themselves and beat their own arguments.
Nancy O rarely posts and has one issue with a particular employee. Stay out of that one, its the only one where there is a possibility of truth.
Nancy Lazaryan is nuts. Their legal beagle who spent months lecturing us about hillbilly law or something and now can't even work the system enough to get a public defender. A guy who gets caught pissing in the middle street while high, is cognitive to the point the he can get a public defender. Lazaryan has to bring unnecessary drama to everything and is on her way to jail.
You really want to try and force this group into a discussion on facts?
Eric
Eric, Tom Swift is still posting here. Get your "FACTS" straight!
Swiftee posted this last week-
Swiftee said...
Bucky bought the house in the 70's I believe. He's had decades to make the improvements and the investments required by the agreement.
I'm interested because although Bucky *loves* to have his private property subsidized by taxpayers, his track record of making good on the requirements is piss poor.
vis. his STAR loan to rehab the building housing an "art studio" that sells nothing was not repaid until the Pioneer Press discovered he was in default.
If he entered into an agreement with the city that enabled him to get his clammy little paws on a house in Irvine Park, I wouldn't be surprised in the least to discover he is in default of that agreement as well.
"Support me, give me"...it's the way a lazy, lefty POS like Bucky rolls.
Maybe the city can get his fat, worthless ass off of that property and sell it to someone else who would properly maintain it.
I know his neighbors would be *thrilled*.
5:11 PM
At times I wish we could get into a civil discussion of the FACTS. Although this blog is interesting, entertaining and INFORMATIVE.
A Democracy stats for the last 22 months......
my profile has been viewed-
19,931 times as of today.
14,055 comments posted.
920 Title posts most of which were request.
Now, I challenge any of you to go and look at other local citizens blogs and compare stats.
Eric if you feel as you do about this blog, your are partially responsible because you are a key element in presenting the other side of the story.
A Democracy Fans Gathering
OPPS, I made an error folks.
I recently shifted comments posted here at the blog to a new email address and I didn't count the number of comments in this new folder.
The total number of comments posted IS-
14,123
FOLKS, I can't take credit for this blogs popularity. The credit goes to all of you who participate here and read the blog.
If you have a topic you want to discuss here, please send it to me.
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