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Friday, April 11, 2008

The making of a POLICE STATE!

Please click onto the COMMENTS for an interesting thread from Belleville News.

posted by Bob at Friday, April 11, 2008

5 Comments:

Blogger Bob said...

Hi All,

I edited a bunch of garbage to make this readable. There is copy errors. And I moved some comments that had been posted under this thread.

Belleville News-Democrat Exposes Questionable Police Tactics (Making of a POLICESTATE)
illinoisleader.com Wednesday, December 11, 2002 illinoisleader
Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 8:40:23 PM by FreeSpeechZone
Belleville News-Democrat Exposes Questionable Police Tactics
Wednesday, December 11, 2002
BELLEVILLE -- The Belleville News-Democrat has run two stories this week concerning "enforcement
teams" consisting of area police teaming with housing inspectors, who are entering homes unannounced,
and ticketing people who refuse to allow inspection.
A story that ran on Sunday of this week entitled,"Subject to Inspection" outlines a trend which is
disturbing both conservatives and liberals, questioning a complete disregard for the 4th Amendment to
the U.S. Constitution.
The Belleville News-Democrat found:
• At least four times, the police-compliance officer teams have been accused of simply walking into
houses unannounced without knocking first.
• A dozen times when people refused to let the officials in without first seeing a warrant, they were
charged with obstruction or interfering with a health officer, despite a 1967 U.S. Supreme Court ruling
that it is unconstitutional to arrest someone who doesn't allow a search without a warrant.
• Fifty-seven percent of those cited for occupancy code violations were white, while 43 percent were
black. Belleville's black population is 15.5 percent, according to the 2000 Census.
• The Police Department has taken advantage of the housing inspections, the records show. In at least 10
cases, the housing inspections gave police an easy way into homes to search for drugs.
On Tuesday of these week, a follow-up story revealed more details.
Will Jordan, executive director of the nonprofit Equal Housing Opportunity Council told the Belleville
News-Democrat said he would ask prosecutors in the U.S. attorney's office in Fairview Heights to
contact the U.S. Justice Department to consider looking into how Belleville enforces its occupancy laws.
The newspaper quoted Belleville Police Chief Terry Delaney as saying, "Enforcing the city's
overcrowding laws by inspecting homes without getting a search warrant and ticketing residents who do
not allow searches will continue."

1 posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 8:40:24 PM by FreeSpeechZone
To: FreeSpeechZone
Subject to inspection
Belleville inspectors and armed police officers show up without search warrants to check for occupancy
code violations, and ticket people who don't let them in -- a practice experts say is unconstitutional.
BY GEORGE PAWLACZYK Belleville News-Democrat and Beth Hundsdorfer
Invite friends over, babysit your grandchildren or allow relatives to spend the night in Belleville and you
risk an armed police officer turning up at your door to search your home and give you a ticket.
Enforcement teams consisting of a housing inspector and a police officer do not obtain search warrants
before showing up to check for occupancy code violations, a Belleville News-Democrat investigation
found.
Most residents give their permission to come in, although reluctantly, and those who don't usually are
charged. Sometimes they simply walk in.
Jim Reese said he was standing in his kitchen when he heard a noise at 7 a.m. and found a housing
inspector and police officer standing in his living room.
"I wanted to know who walked in without permission," he said. "They didn't answer me. They just
started walking through the place."
Such aggressive enforcement of a city law designed to prevent overcrowding violates the Fourth
Amendment, which guards against unlawful search and seizure, legal experts say.
"I think the way they are using the housing ordinance is unconstitutional," said Jamie Carey, a law
professor at Loyola University. "I think it's just a way to get around the Fourth Amendment."
"You can't come in without a search warrant," said William Schroeder, a professor and expert in federal
law at Southern Illinois University Carbondale. "The Supreme Court decided a case on this that is right
on point. It's based on the Fourth Amendment. And you can't arrest anyone for refusing a search without
a search warrant."
Belleville attorney Bruce Cook said: "If they suspect you of something, then they can go to a police
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officer and get an affidavit and then get a search warrant. Your home is protected by the Fourth
Amendment."
In more than 30 interviews, residents said officials show up without warrants and ticket people,
sometimes for just having visitors. While many times the tickets were justified because of significant
overcrowding, others were given for everyday events.
A young mother who works two jobs was ticketed because the elderly couple she hired to babysit were
not listed on her occupancy permit. A man who agreed to house sit for a friend in the Air Force who was
overseas was cited when he was found alone in the house.
In 70 percent of cases, documented in city records since 1999, housing inspectors, called compliance
officers, and uniformed police offcers have gone into homes in the city's poorest areas -- around Hough
Park, in the Franklin neighborhood and near downtown.
Ninety-five percent of these surprise inspections were at rental housing.
City officials say enforcement of occupancy and housing codes is crucial to prevent overcrowding and
unsanitary conditions, and to keep the city's housing stock from deteriorating.
But civil rights experts argue such tactics are discriminatory and unconstitutional.
"It's pretty much like the Gestapo. There is no right to privacy," said Will Jordan, executive director of
the Equal Housing Opportunity Council in St. Louis, which works with the federal government to
investigate civil rights violations.
"This is much more intrusive than making a random stop on the highway because this is your home," he
said.
The findings
None of Illinois' 15 largest cities, including Chicago, sends police officers on housing inspections,
according to a survey by the newspaper. In fact, none require occupancy permits.
The searches usually are based on anonymous calls and often come during the early morning hours,
according to a review of 263 Belleville Housing Department occupancy violation case files since 1999.
The newspaper found: • At least four times, the police-compliance officer teams have been accused of
simply walking into houses unannounced without knocking first.
• A dozen times when people refused to let the officials in without first seeing a warrant, they were
charged with obstruction or interfering with a health officer, despite a 1967 U.S. Supreme Court ruling
that it is unconstitutional to arrest someone who doesn't allow a search without a warrant.
• Fifty-seven percent of those cited for occupancy code violations were white, while 43 percent were
black. Belleville's black population is 15.5 percent, according to the 2000 Census.
• The Police Department has taken advantage of the housing inspections, the records show. In at least 10
cases, the housing inspections gave police an easy way into homes to search for drugs. "This is a
problem one sees all across the country -- the use of these housing codes for doing what really amounts
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to drug sweeps," said Ed Yohnka of the American Civil Liberties Union
• People cited with an occupancy violation are compelled to give the police officer personal data that is
entered into the Belleville Police Department computer base and used for routine criminal
investigations.
The personal information includes race, marital status, birthdates, home and work telephone numbers,
criminal history and even a description of scars and tattoos. Crystal Wilson, 25, was asked to describe a
Caesarean scar on her abdomen during an occupancy inspection on Nov. 14, 2000, according to an arrest
report.
The permits also record the relationship of each person living in a residence to the head of the
household. Even an unwed couple who want to live together discretely must state their relationship on a
public document.
"What is the public policy served by knowing specifically who lives where?" said Todd Swanstrom, a
sociologist at St. Louis University. • Of the 584 people charged altogether, 164 were cited for "allowing
illegal occupancy," or having too many people living in a house or apartment. Most of the remaining
420 were charged with living in a residence where they weren't listed on the occupancy permit. A dozen
or more were held on other charges, such as outstanding warrants.
Mary Jones-Joyner, 55, of 132 Lauren Circle was babysitting her grandchildren when Sgt. Joe Stumph
came to her door at 7:10 a.m. May 31, 2000, and handed her an already completed occupancy violation
citation because the children were not listed on her occupancy permit.
"I told him my grandkids don't live with me. I asked, 'What is it you're going to charge me with?"
When Jones-Joyner appeared in St. Clair County Circuit Court with a copy of her daughter's lease
showing the children lived with their mother, a judge dismissed the case.
"I had to take time off from work for this crazy stuff," she said.
• In 190 cases, homes that had children age 16 and younger were searched. In one case, six family
members were issued citations.
Chandra Miller, 29, was ticketed Jan. 25 for allowing her estranged husband to sleep on her living room
floor when their daughter was ill. Tyrone Miller, 30, also was cited, even though he showed the
enforcement team a driver's license listing his address in Cahokia.
"I want to know when it became illegal to have someone sleep on your living room floor?" she said.
Jordan said the fact families are involved is significant.
"If they're going after women and children, this is a situation where the Justice Department will come in
and make them stop," he said.
John Farley, head of the Sociology Department at Southern Illinois University Edwardsville, said the
unannounced inspections occurring almost exclusively at rental housing also is a concern. "It sounds like
they're trying to keep out lower-income people," he said. "It sounds like this is a case of keep the renters
out and send them somewhere else."
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The 'overcrowding police'
Henry Johnson said he was fired because he refused to go along with what he called discriminatory
practices in enforcing the municipal housing code. Johnson, 51, was hired in 1993 by the housing
department after a U.S. Justice Department investigation into Belleville's failure to hire minorities. He
was one of the city's first black employees.
Johnson said that after Mayor Mark Kern took office in 1997, a series of "disturbing" strategy sessions
took place in the housing department.
"At one of these meetings, Stumph, the police sergeant, advised that residents who balked at allowing a
search without a search warrant should be threatened with arrest," said Johnson, who now lives in
Fairview Heights. "Joe would say that when a person wouldn't let us in, we should say, 'You mean
you're not going to let that inspector do his job? Do I have to arrest you for obstructing?'" Johnson said.
Stumph did not respond to requests to comment.
"I wouldn't go along with this kind of thing, and finally I was cut out of the meetings," Johnson said, "I
was finally told I wasn't to supervise anybody."
Six months after he was fired, the city settled a civil rights lawsuit Johnson had filed in U.S. District
Court in East St. Louis for an undisclosed amount. Kern declined to be interviewed for this story but
issued a written statement: "Enforcement of occupancy permit regulations is important to our residents,
and we have strived to enforce these rules."
In his statement, Kern insisted city inspectors do not enter people's property without permission. But
Reese said compliance officer Robert Craig and police Sgt. Don Sax entered his apartment at 3419 W.
Main St., at 7 a.m. on May 20 without knocking.
"They told me that I had to get out right away, the next day," said Reese, a 55-year-old former Air Force
enlisted man who was ticketed for not having an occupancy permit. "I said I needed time to move but
they told me, "Didn't you hear? You've got to leave."
< In another case, James R. Burnette of 611 E. McKinley awoke on May 6 to find a Belleville Police
officer and a housing inspector standing over his bed.
"We found the residence open and upon further inspection, Burnette was found inside sleeping," the
inspection report stated.
Belleville Housing Director Mike Eckert declined to be interviewed, but he said, "Our department never
forces its way into anyone's homes." He said the purpose of the city's occupancy law is to prevent
"dangerous overcrowding."
In one case, 12 people were found living illegally in a residence at 516 W. C St. that was supposed to
have only four. They included six children 12 or under. That presents problems for schools as well as
the city.
"Taxpayers in this district do not want to be paying taxes to support children who do not actually live in
this district," said James Rosborg, superintendent of Belleville School District 118. "We strongly
support the Belleville housing code. We want people to come into the district. We're not against that.
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But we want them to legally reside here," Rosborg said. Many who were ticketed said they were friends
or relatives who were visiting. They included 49 school-aged teenagers, two as young as 15.
"The problem is that people say they are just visiting, but 30 days becomes 60 days, which becomes 90
or six months or a year," said Louis Tiemann, a strong supporter of municipal housing codes who helped
draft the city's current code in the late 1980s. "How do you police that? It's very difficult." The city's
housing code does not define "occupy." A housing department employee said that a visitor usually can
stay "a week, or a week and a half" before the occupancy permit must be changed.
Most of the residents interviewed said they allowed the searches because they felt intimidated or feared
being issued a criminal citation.
They complained that police would ticket anyone who happened to be in the house when they showed
up to check for overcrowding, refusing to listen to their explanations. "Whoever heard of the
overcrowding police?" Reese said. Rick Brown, an activist for mobile home-dwellers and a frequent
critic of the city's housing policies, said, "You no longer have to register a dog or cat in Belleville, but
when my nephew comes to visit, I've got to register him with housing."
A change in strategy Soon after taking office, Kern changed the way the city enforces its housing code.
Mike Pierceall, the former city planning director under Mayor Roger Cook, said police did not escort
housing inspectors except in rare cases involving repeat offenders. Police Chief Terry Delaney refused
to answer questions but said in a written statement it is necessary to send a police officer out on a
housing inspection to issue a criminal citation, and for "the security of the housing officer."
"Neighbors call us all the time. When we go into the area around Memorial Drive, it's terrible. They
(youths) stand in the street and defy us to run into them," he said earlier.
Pierceall said that under the Cook administration, a housing code violator received a certified letter with
a warning that unless the problem was remedied, a citation and a fine would follow. Permits listed only
the head of household and the maximum number of people allowed to live there. Using the certified
letter approach, Belleville brought just three people to court in 1996 for housing violations. In 1997,
during Kern's first year in office, housing court cases jumped to 222. Last year, 521 people were given
criminal citations stemming from housing complaints, including 143 people cited for occupancy
violations.
"I think it's just a difference of philosophy in handling matters," said Pierceall. "Our way was to not
force the issue. It worked pretty well. But Belleville's got some very serious housing issues. Maybe the
way they're doing it now is overzealous, I don't know." Alderman Bob Blaies said he thought certified
letters still were being sent out. "We need to keep people in line with the housing code, but if it's
violating anybody's rights, we need to take a look at it," Blaies said.
Alderman Paul Seibert said he approves of using police officers to enforce the housing codes. "You can
send a letter to anybody, that doesn't mean they obey," he said. Asked whether people cited for a
housing violation should be required to provide the same personal information as someone charged with
a crime, Seibert said, "I don't believe they do that." Court records show most people end up paying a fine
of $75 to $100 for housing ordinance violations rather than go to trial.
Ordinance violations are similar to traffic tickets, and a conviction goes on a person's criminal record.
Failure to show up in court to answer them can result in a bench warrant being issued with bail set for up
to $2,000.
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"Unfortunately, under the law, the poor are not a protected class," said Carl Carlson, a staff attorney for
Land of Lincoln Legal Assistance Foundation in East St. Louis, which provides legal services to lowincome
people. "You can discriminate against them and prosecute them and they don't have much legal
recourse," he said.
City vs. the Constitution
Belleville's current housing codes, which require mandatory inspections and a $25 occupancy permit,
were adopted in 1988, but language was added in 1997 that allows inspectors to enter a home without a
resident's or a court's permission. Chapter 18 reads, in part, "With reference to any health nuisance or
any housing or maintenance code violation, the director shall have the power to enter and examine any
property for the purpose of enforcement ... " and this authority extends to "one-half mile outside the city
limits."
Eckert said the language was adopted from the Building Officials and Code Administrators, or BOCA, a
Chicago-based, nonprofit organization that has compiled a model housing and building code used by
thousands of communities nationwide. But Tom Frost, a BOCA vice president, said the group's code
does not state that local officials can force a search without a search warrant. "Forced searches are
unconstitutional," Frost said. "You need a search warrant."
The city also can declare a residence unfit to live in and force people to move out if the utilities are
temporarily shut off, Eckert said. The BOCA code does not call for this. City Attorney Bob Sprague said
in a written statement he sees no problem with having a rule that says housing inspectors can search
homes without a warrant. "I see no conflict between Chapter 18 (of the city code) and the Fourth
Amendment," Sprague said, adding, "As the mayor has already informed you, the city does not enter a
premises without permission."
However, refusing to allow a search without first seeing a search warrant is every citizen's right,
according to a 1967 U.S. Supreme Court decision, Camara vs. San Francisco. In that case, the court said
a warrant is needed for housing inspectors to enter a home, and that a person cannot be charged with a
crime for refusing to allow his home to be entered without a search warrant. The only exception is when
an emergency, such as a fire or gas leak, is thought to exist.
Even so, local laws to the contrary usually aren't struck down until someone challenges them, said
Schroeder, the SIUC law professor. "You do need a test case to go forward with these things. Local
municipalities pass these laws all the time, and they are allowed to stand because no one challenges
them," he said. Belleville has been under the scrutiny of the U.S. Justice Department since signing a
consent decree in 1995 and agreeing to end its discriminatory hiring practices.
If Belleville is performing improper searches aimed at low-income people, the Justice Department
would be interested, spokesman Casey Stavropolous said.
"We would certainly be interested in any civil rights complaints apart from the employment consent
decree," he said. "They would be investigated." Brown, the mobile home activist, said he understands
the need to enforce the housing codes, he just disagrees with sending a gun-toting police officer to do it.
"It's like when you get stopped by a cop, you say 'yes, sir' even though you haven't said that since you
were in trouble with your dad when you were in high school," he said. "When police show up, people
will agree to just about anything."
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2 posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 8:49:30 PM by FreeSpeechZone

To: FreeSpeechZone
Not real clear here, but it looks like a crackdown on the "projects" is going on.
Is this a case of JBT, or is it enforcement of rules for those who live in subsidised government housing,
yet ignore the rules of doing so?
3 posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 8:54:34 PM by sarasmom

To: sarasmom
wrong
4 posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 8:57:15 PM by FreeSpeechZone

To: sarasmo
what part of the U.S Constitution,Bills of Rights don't you understand ?
5 posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 9:00:05 PM by FreeSpeechZone

To: FreeSpeechZone
If they tried that here (entering, without knocking), I'd pull my gun, order them to reach for the sky and
if they didn't, I'd shoot them. Home invasions by anyone (including those pretending to be the police) is
a criminal act and places the homeowner in grave danger. I'd walk away without any criminal
convictions, too. Then again, I live in Tucson, AZ., not Illinazi.
6 posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 9:01:50 PM by You Gotta Be Kidding Me

To: You Gotta Be Kidding Me
I live in Illinois, and believe me anyone (and I mean anyone) attempting to enter my home without a
duly constituted warrant is going to find themselves really dead, really quickly.
L
7 posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 9:05:44 PM by Lurker

To: sarasmom
this was a time... a time before lawyers, and insurance companies and legislators got together to know
whats best for us. and since we have been cradled from womb to tomb by our benevolent masters....
Subject: For those born before 1979
Subject: I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU MADE IT
If you lived as a child in the 40's, 50's, 60's or 70's.. Looking back, it's hard to believe that we have lived
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as long as we have...
As children, we would ride in cars with no seat belts or air bags. Riding in the back of a pickup truck on
a warm day was always a special treat.(Not to mention hitchhiking to town as a young kid!), and riding
on the running board. What's a running board?
Our baby cribs were covered with bright colored lead based paint. We had no childproof lids on
medicine bottles, doors, or cabinets, and when we rode our bikes, we had no helmets.
We drank water from the garden hose and not from a bottle. Horrors. We would spend hours building
our go-carts out of scraps and then rode down the hill, only to find out we forgot the brakes. After
running into the bushes a few times we learned to solve the problem.
We would leave home in the morning and play all day, as long as we were back when the streetlights
came on. No one was able to reach us all day. No cell phones. Unthinkable. We played dodge ball and
sometimes the ball would really hurt. We got cut and broke bones and broke teeth, and there were no
law suits from these accidents. They were accidents. No one was to blame, but us. Remember accidents?
We had fights and punched each other and got black and blue and learned to get over it.
We ate cupcakes, bread and butter, and drank sugar soda but we were never overweight...we were
always outside playing. We shared one grape soda with four friends, from one bottle and no one died
from this.
We did not have Playstations, Nintendo 64, X-Boxes, video games at all, 99 channels on cable, video
tape movies, surround sound, personal cell phones, Personal Computers, Internet chat rooms ... we had
friends. We went outside and found them. We rode bikes or walked to a friend's home and knocked on
the door, or rung the bell or just walked i n and talked to them.
Imagine such a thing. Without asking a parent! By ourselves! Out there in the cold cruel world! Without
a guardian. How did we do it?
We made up games with sticks and tennis balls and ate worms and although we were told it would
happen, we did not put out very many eyes, nor did the worms live inside us forever.
Little League had tryouts and not everyone made the team. Those who didn't, had to learn to deal with
disappointment..... Some students weren't as smart as others so they failed a grade and were held back to
repeat the same grade.....Horrors. Tests were not adjusted for any reason. Our actions were our own.
Consequences were expected. No one to hide behind. The idea of a parent bailing us out if we broke a
law was unheard of. They actually sided with the law, imagine that!
This generation has produced some of the best risk-takers and problem solvers and inventors, ever. The
past 50 years has been an explo sion of innovation and new ideas. We had freedom, failure, success and
responsibility, and we learned how to deal with it all.
And you're one of them. Congratulations! Please pass this on to others who have had the luck to grow up
as kids, before government regulated our lives, for our own good
8 posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 9:05:48 PM by FreeSpeechZone

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To: You Gotta Be Kidding Me
......by the way........I can say this with confidence, because that exact thing has happened here
(unanounced drug raids) and the homeowner/drug dealer was aquitted of any criminal act associated
with shooting the cop. Yes, he was convicted of dealing drugs, but nothing else.
9 posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 9:06:11 PM by You Gotta Be Kidding Me
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]
To: Lurker
why is America becoming communist?
10 posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 9:07:30 PM by FreeSpeechZone

To: Lurker
The difference being........the bastards there in Illinazi would probably convict you. Here, I'd walk and be
"home in time for Cornflakes."
11 posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 9:08:58 PM by You Gotta Be Kidding Me

To: FreeSpeechZone
What do you mean 'becoming'?
L
12 posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 9:13:09 PM by Lurker

To: FreeSpeechZone
Because none of our elected politicians will do anything about it. Not the GOP, Not the DEMs, Not
GWB. If they did something it might endanger their reelection chances.
The USA is not about what is right anymore, it is about doing whatever is needed to stay in power. If
poor people are damaged by it, who cares? is the thinking.
13 posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 9:15:23 PM by Karsus

To: You Gotta Be Kidding Me
Watch it everyone. Don't be complaining about the police here. I did that on another thread about police
over stepping their bounds and was accused of being "anti' police.
14 posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 9:24:02 PM by TXBubba

To: You Gotta Be Kidding Me
It seems fairly clear here we are talking about non-owners, and public housing residents.
That means they get free or subsidised rent, courtesy of public tax funds, in exchange for very restricted
rental agreements to abide by, vastly different restrictions than free market renters or individual home-
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owners.
While I have never hit bottom enough to live in "public housing", I am just a paycheck and a waiting list
away.Were I ever reduced to feeding at the public trough,I believe I could manage to abide the
restrictions and requirements to keep me off the streets.
My "home" in base housing in the USAF was subject to 24/7 inspections.My apartments since living in
the civilian world also spelled out inspection options of the owners.Read the lease.If you lease from the
government,you agree to restrictions generally more intrusive than non-government
landlords.Regardless of the landlord, if you sign the lease, you live by their restrictions and rules.
Exactly what problem do you see in rentall lease enforcement?
15 posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 9:25:19 PM by sarasmom

To: sarasmom
Is this a case of JBT, or is it enforcement of rules for those who live in subsidised government housing,
yet ignore the rules of doing so?
I don't know, the story is very vague about a few things. They mention that 95% of the checks have been
at "rental housing", but they don't say whether it's owned by a private owner or some government
housing agency.
I know that at my apartment, in South Carolina, my lease explicitly states that the rental company's
agents can enter the apartment at any time to "examine" it, make repairs, or install things. "Examine" is a
pretty broad word. That having been said, that is the private sector. If the "rental housing" they mention
is government low-income housing, do local police and these housing authority yahoos count as agents
of the "rental company?" I don't think so.
And then there's the 5% that isn't rental housing. If these guys are forcing their way into private homes
to check "occupancy permits", that's way over the Fourth Amendment line, no question.
"Occupancy permits." These guys tell you you need a permit to live in your own house. Unbelievable.
And the people in Belleville submit to this?
}:-)4
16 posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 9:26:53 PM by Moose4

To: sarasmom
When you are in the military you are not covered by the 4th adm and I think you know that.
The article is talking about the State (police & code) coming in the homes, not the landlord (HUD or
who ever). Can you see the difference? Also, just because you may be in goverment housing does not mean that you give up your rights.
17 posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 9:28:45 PM by Karsus

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To: sarasmom
If you are in the military, you have damn near no civil rights. State law (Arizona) requires a 24 hour
notice, prior to any "inspection" of an apartment BY THE APARTMENT OWNER, NOT THE
POLICE!!!!!
18 posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 9:29:27 PM by You Gotta Be Kidding Me

To: sarasmom
By the way.......you CANNOT sign-away your Constitutional rights (previous US Supreme Court
ruling).
19 posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 9:37:44 PM by You Gotta Be Kidding Me

To: FreeSpeechZone
Im from Belleville...grew up there..my mom and several brothers and a sister still live there...Belleville
is a RAT town corrupt politicians..etc, about 10 min from St. Louis.
20 posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 9:38:57 PM by mystery-ak

To: Moose4
Oh it is definately public housing.The "projects" or government subsidised.
If the city is your landlord, the police are your rent collectors and housing inspectors.As it should be.The
rants from the socialists avoid the difference, but I can not drum up pity for their natural constituents.
If ones lives on government largesse, one follows the requirements. No one forced them to apply for
public housing.Reality sucks if you need public assistance.It is intended to be temporary, just till you get
back on your feet.It is not a lifestyle many would choose, but believe it or not, some do.
21 posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 9:40:21 PM by sarasmom
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]
To: Karsus
Yes you do.Read the lease.
22 posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 9:42:13 PM by sarasmom

To: sarasmom
What if the State added to you property tax bill a statement that said "By paying this, you hear by grant
the State the right to inspect your property at anytime" Would that be OK?
23 posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 9:48:51 PM by Karsus

To: You Gotta Be Kidding Me
If you are in the military, you have damn near no civil rights.
Belleville News-Democrat Exposes Questionable Police Tactics (Making of a POLICE... Page 12 of 16
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/805649/posts 4/8/2008
LOL! Except that that gun grabbers say the Second Amendment only applies to the military. How about
that? They get no free speech and no freedom from search and seizure, while we get no guns ...
according to them.
24 posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 9:51:00 PM by coloradan

To: FreeSpeechZone
This is as abusive and unconstitutional as the War on Drugs.
Down the slippery slope we go...
25 posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 9:58:40 PM by Imal

To: TXBubba
Watch it everyone. Don't be complaining about the police here. I did that on another thread about police
over stepping their bounds and was accused of being "anti' police.
So you were accused. But were you convicted? :P
26 posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 10:02:00 PM by Imal

To: Karsus
If you rent from the state, you do exactly that.
If you dont want to do that, dont rent from the government.
I fail to see the problem here, unless you think poverty confers extraordinary special rights over and
above working class citizens?
You do indeed give up certain "rights" if you live on government taxpayer paid assistance. Read the
lease!It is clearly spelled out.Sheesh, how thick is your skull?
27 posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 10:15:28 PM by sarasmom

To: FreeSpeechZone
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable
searches and seizures shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, unless upon probable cause and
supported by Oath or affirmation..." Amendment IV
I'd say Belleville has no obligation at all to provide housing to anyone.
However, once they do get into that business, then they are bound by the Fourth Amendment and the
people living in those units still have its protection, IMO.
28 posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 10:45:04 PM by Ken H

Belleville News-Democrat Exposes Questionable Police Tactics (Making of a POLICE... Page 13 of 16
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/805649/posts 4/8/2008
To: sarasmom
"You do indeed give up certain "rights" if you live on government taxpayer paid assistance."
With such a brilliant logical conclusion like this...let's go through the list:
If you use food stamps but live in your own mobile home, you must let the government dictate what you
eat, how many times a day, calories per meal and where.
If you get a grant or loan for college, you must work at the assigned job in the government agency they
tell you to.
If you work for the government, you can only use your 1st Amendment rights in a manner favorable
about the government.
If you are elderly and receive Medicare or Medicaid, you can not ever move again because once you are
assigned a doctor, you can not relocate because you are creating paperwork and problems for the
schmuck in charge.
If you qualify for Social Security, you can never vacation or spend your money on anything you want to
unless it is for your own subsitance.
Oh, we could go on and on with the illogic of your arguement. But that's ok. Because I heard one of the
"residents" on the radio today. It was a family of six in their own home. Not a government "assistance"
home as you proclaim. But just remember one thing. Once you trade rights for "assistance" you've
surrendered all freedoms. Technically speaking, by accepting Social Security, all of us have done this
already.
29 posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 10:46:25 PM by Nuke'm Glowing

To: sarasmom
Since I have never lived in tax payer funded housing perhaps you could provide a URL where I can
view one.
I do not think that poverty grants special rights, but I also do not think that poverty removes ones rights.
I could swear I remember quite a few posters on this board getting highly upset when the goverment in
some cities tried to ban renters with guns...
30 posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 11:01:28 PM by Karsus

To: FreeSpeechZone
The articles posted are blindingly slanted in one direction. Usually, extreme slanting like this is done to
obfuscate the real intent of those being pointed to as being evil.
What's the other side of the story? How about an article that gives the local law enforcement/ civil
authority persepctive.
31 posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 11:16:26 PM by jimkress

Belleville News-Democrat Exposes Questionable Police Tactics (Making of a POLICE... Page 14 of 16
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/805649/posts 4/8/2008
To: FreeSpeechZone
Please pass this on to others who have had the luck to grow up as kids, before government regulated our
lives, for our own good
I remember when I was in fourth grade, we lived about five miles out of town, and rode the school bus.
Because of my dawdling I had missed the bus a couple times in a week or two, and my mom had driven
me in to school.
Well, the third time it happened, she ordered me back out the door and told me that today I would walk
the whole way to school. Called up the teacher and told her to call back if I hadn't turned up by
lunchtime.
Those were the days. It's amazing how coddled kids are now. The nanny government would arrest
someone for child abuse if they did that today.
-ccm
32 posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 1:45:10 AM by ccmay

To: FreeSpeechZone
Subject: I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU MADE IT
Thanks for a trip down memory lane.
BTW, I lived in Belleville during the 1970s. One of the cops killed his stepdaughter, whose body was
found in a pond with her hands bound and shot in the head with a police-calibre gun.
No charges were filed. The police said there was insufficient evidence.
Bellevile is next door to East St. Louis, one of the poorest cities in the country (and populated by
blacks). Sounds like they're adopting unconstitutional methods to keep things the way they've always
been. I wonder how many of those identified as white are actually brown, i.e. ancestry Mexican or other
Central American ?
This is a new low even for Belleville.
33 posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 10:01:54 AM by happygrl

To: FreeSpeechZone
Remember:
POLICE STATE REQUIRES LOTS OF CAPS & SEMI-LITERATE PUNCTUATION
34 posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 10:04:52 AM by BlueLancer

To: sarasmom
Belleville News-Democrat Exposes Questionable Police Tactics (Making of a POLICE... Page 15 of 16
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/805649/posts 4/8/2008
It seems fairly clear here we are talking about non-owners, and public housing residents.
It does not seem "fairly clear" that this is about public housing. In fact, no where is that mentioned.
Please quote from the article where you get that inference, otherwise you are reading your own notions
into it. In fact, what is mentioned is a $25.00 occupancy permit. That is NOT required in public housing.
So get off your rant and learn to read objectively.
35 posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 10:09:42 AM by happygrl

To: Karsus
If it is in the housing contract, for public housing, that random searches can be done... then I have no
problem with this.
If they try and apply this to regular home owners, or those in apartments whose rental contract does not
stipulate random inspections, then I have a HUGE problem with the States actions.
36 posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 11:21:23 AM by Dead Corpse

To: Dead Corpse
Gestapo-like police burst into private homes for planning and zoning inspections

11:57 PM  
Blogger Bob said...

For the average American GESTAPO seems to be the first name that come to mind in labeling these code enforcement freedom haters.

Where have we heard this terminology before? :-)

Dawkins must be traveling the US in an attempt to spread NAZI tactics.

11:12 PM

11:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
DISTRICT OF MINNESOTA
Frank J. Steinhauser, III, et al., Civil No. 04-2632
JNE/SRN
Plaintiffs,
v. NOTICE OF MOTION
City of St. Paul, et al., FOR SANCTIONS
Defendants.
Sandra Harrilal, et al., Civil No. 05-461
JNE/SRN
Plaintiffs,
v.
Steve Magner, et al.,
Defendants.
Thomas J. Gallagher, et al., Civil No. 05-1348
JNE/SRN
Plaintiffs,
v.
Steve Magner, et al.,
Defendants.
PLEASE TAKE NOTICE, that on Monday, the 14th day of April, 2008, at 1:30 p.m., or as soon thereafter as counsel can be heard, in courtroom 8E, United States Courthouse, 300 South 4th Street, Minneapolis, MN 55104, a renewed motion for sanctions made by Plaintiffs

11:13 PM

11:59 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There needs to be a Federal Government Agency formed to act on a complaint and go into a city and stop illegal actions immediately, instruct city officials on what is not acceptable and remove city employees and officials that don't comply and prosecute them.

3:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Henry, there is one. Its called the United States Department of Justice. There is a whole division of attorneys FBI agents and administrators dedicated to this. Just ask Elliot Spitzer of the former governor of Illinois Ryan.

Eric

11:59 AM  

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