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Wednesday, August 06, 2008

Interesting read for politicians/ The citizens Engagement Round Table

Click onto the COMMENTS for the an excerpt from the report.

91 Comments:

Blogger Bob said...

"The Saskatchewan Experience with Public Consultation"
Institute On Governance


The first several consultations were, in the words of Mr. Perrins, nightmarish. Hundreds of angry
citizens came to admonish the government at every stop. During this initial phase of consultation,
the public servants were on several occasions met by unruly crowds of angry citizens, where Mr.
Perrins felt fear for his personal safety. Worse, elected officials did not attend the initial
community discussions.

In some cases, Mr. Perrins and his counterparts managed to deliver the message and participate in
a constructive dialogue with the citizens. In these situations, the key factor was the presentation
of clear, concise facts and arguments, delivered in an open, forthright way. Mr. Perrins stressed that in such forums, empty rhetoric would not suffice as response to the citizen's questioning.

Unfortunately, even clear facts and open dialogue could not overcome the tensions evident during several of the community forums. Overall, at the beginning of the consultation process, both the citizens and the public servants involved were unhappy with the government's approach to the closures, as it appeared that a) the MPP's were hiding from their responsibilities and b) the public were not being accorded the respect which the words "public consultation" ostensibly implied.

This discontent reverberated back to Premier's office, and he initiated a change in approach.
Following some major wrangling and arm twisting within cabinet, each of the rest of the
community consultations were attended by a cabinet minister, directly appointed by the Premier.

Citizen Engagement:


The Premier himself even attended several of the sessions. This had the dual effect of placating the
public (by according the significance of the cuts with the political authority of those delivering themessage) and relieving some of the pressure from the public servants, who initially felt as if they
were "left holding the bag".
In the end, Mr. Perrins indicated that two main factors eased the blow of the healthcare cuts
among Saskatchewan's citizens.

First, a highly trusted NDP government was delivering the news,
from the only political party with currency to endure the inevitable political backlash. Second, the
policy was clearly linked to a fiscal reality which could not be avoided and was relatively easy to
explain and relate to reductions in spending.

Overall, despite some personal "bumps and bruises", there was little question in Mr. Perrins' mind that the public consultations on hospital closures were an unqualified success.

These consultations enabled the public to vent their frustrations in an open forum with political leaders, and the political leaders not only listened, they asked the public how the system could be reconfigured.

In other words, the process facilitated mutual respect between citizens, public servants and
politicians, as well as creating a constructive dialogue among those three parties.

7:39 PM  
Blogger Bob said...

Hi All,

I sent out invitations to ALL the city council members.

I even invited the Mayor at this


Link

TO: The A Democracy Round Table On Housing

I will invite all the district councils tomorrow

10:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'll be suprised if any of them respond. They are much too elite and arrogant for us.

11:22 PM  
Blogger Bob said...

Click here for the full report

12:29 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Interesting points. Could the city possibly have gotten so xenophobic that they cannot see reality.

Healthy debate is the best way that we have of getting to the truth.

9:01 AM  
Blogger Bob said...

Question for Chuck & Eric.

What do you think the political fall out will be at the next mayoral race, and city council elections, with the number of angry citizens growing here and not having their concerns addressed?

10:13 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Chuck and Eric have screamed for a RETREAT!

What is wrong Chuck & Eric,
getting to hot in the kitchen?

Put your skirts on?

12:30 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Before you all start giving each other congratulatory hj's, lets remember a few things.

Chuck and I have already been here for two years giving you an alternative perspective different from the angry slumlord with an axe to grind. That perspective we offer has been met with the most hostile, irrational responses ever. It bears nothing close to a respectful dialog. It has been a virtual name calling scream fest.

When Bob suggested that we would have a forum and that there would be rules that you couldn't be disrespectful, this list exploded and a couple of people were permanently removed. Why? Because you don't understand what a forum is, as opposed to a confrontation. You don't believe they are worthy of respect, and some believe they have the right to berate public officials.

What do I think? I think the history over the last two years prove that this crowd for the most part is a waste of time for anyone seeking solutions. Your minds are made up and all you want to do is bitch about your gripe.

In spite of Bob's spin, there are not enough people on here that could make an iota of difference in election of anyone, especially the mayor. Why? Because you're not organized, don't know how to organize, can't organize around landlords in a city that is sick of ran down properties, most interested parties don't live in the city and you offer no alternative to the code enforcement system sans elimination.

Will the District Council participate? Maybe but, for the most part they'll do what they do now, monitor the site and laugh about the nuts. After all, the District Councils already bring the city officials together with the voters and business owners. What are you offering different aside from an angry group who thinks they are all corrupt and on some endless payroll?

This blog is so puerile on a constant basis that it would take one hell of a makeover for it to gain the credibility of being informative as opposed to entertaining.


Eric

1:20 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sorry Eric,
It's not just landlords. While they have brought the suits, many other people are affected, and trying to frame the argument in that way is inaccurate and counterproductive.

2:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

In spite of Bob's spin, there are not enough people on here that could make an iota of difference in election of anyone, especially the mayor. Why? Because you're not organized, don't know how to organize, can't organize around landlords in a city that is sick of ran down properties, most interested parties don't live in the city and you offer no alternative to the code enforcement system sans elimination.


I didn't say it was just landlords. I said you can't organize around landlord issues- that's what this is and will be presented as. Since Code Enforcement is complaint based, you can say that there are more citizens sick of their property. Somebody has to call it. CE does not patrol the street looking for violations.

Anyway, I've been around long enough to know that you can't beat the citizens or spin them into believing what they already know is a lie. Landlords take advantage.

That's an uphill battle and any candidate that takes on that is preparing for a loss- a big loss.


Eric

3:09 PM  
Blogger Bob said...

Eric said;
Chuck and I have already been here for two years giving you an alternative perspective different from the angry slumlord with an axe to grind. That perspective we offer has been met with the most hostile, irrational responses ever. It bears nothing close to a respectful dialog. It has been a virtual name calling scream fest.

When Bob suggested that we would have a forum and that there would be rules that you couldn't be disrespectful, this list exploded and a couple of people were permanently removed. Why? Because you don't understand what a forum is, as opposed to a confrontation. You don't believe they are worthy of respect, and some believe they have the right to berate public officials.

my response;
This is what we can expect from angry citizens who have been ignored by city officials over their issues with housing.

Eric said;
What do I think? I think the history over the last two years prove that this crowd for the most part is a waste of time for anyone seeking solutions. Your minds are made up and all you want to do is bitch about your gripe.

my response;
It will be very unfortunate if an elected official has the same attitude you do Eric. My common sense supported by multiple studies on governing support my position.

Eric said;
In spite of Bob's spin, there are not enough people on here that could make an iota of difference in election of anyone, especially the mayor. Why? Because you're not organized, don't know how to organize, can't organize around landlords in a city that is sick of ran down properties, most interested parties don't live in the city and you offer no alternative to the code enforcement system sans elimination.

my response;

Spin Eric? Some interesting facts about A Democracy's 22 months on the Internet.

1. my profile here has been viewed over

20,000 times

2. there has been over 950 topics posted most of which were citizens request.

3. there has been over 15,000 comments posted to the blog.

4. The googles page rank
on this comment page is 9 of 10. One of the highest ratings in the WORLD. Far surpassing any main stream media outlets anywhere in the world or local blogs.

5. How many folks read the Pioneer Press. 200,000 ,,, 350,000.. Well folks twincities.com has probably 50 regular posters.

Saint Paul Issues and Forums has about 25 regular posters and membership of over 500. Tim Erickson once told me they had about 3500 readers weekly. They barely have a googles rank.

My point is it takes a very rare person to comment publicly. It is "foolish" to say there is a small group of folks who participate here without taking into the consideration the masses who read and never post. (and the stats of coarse!)That googles page rank wouldn't almost be off the graph if this blog wasn't kicken.

Eric said;
Will the District Council participate?

my response;
They will be invited to the round table as spectators only. They can speak at the Town Hall Meeting after the round table if they desire. Although, I highly doubt they will have the courage because they know many here believe they are part of the problem.

Eric said;
Maybe but, for the most part they'll do what they do now, monitor the site and laugh about the nuts.

my response;
Eric, it is sad what you are saying is probably the truth.

The district council on the East side wasn't concerned about the issues the neighbors were having with Micheals Bar
getting it's liquor license to open. They provided the city council with a so what letter.

Mike, a Saint Paul Code Enforcement Officer, was able to register this bar as a cat1 when it should have been a cat 2 or 3 registered vacant building. Mike didn't have to do a code compliance. Mike didn't even have to display a registered vacant placard. Mike was reported for the serious code violations on his building and nothing was done. Very disrespectful to the neighbors and citizens of this city.

The problem with the district councils is, this is a DFL city. The predominantly liberal voter base, vote their pals into these district council positions and when a voice comes along against the status quo it is deluted. It is an unfair rigged system favoring the majority in power.

Here at A Democracy the minority view point is protected at all cost even if I don't agree with it.

I am a conservative Libertarian, I have been honest about my political affiliations and opinions.

I have supported Republicans and Democrats. I supported Melvin Carter in the last city council election because I thought he was concerned about gentrification.

My conscience is the guiding factor of this forum. I have no stake in the housing issue myself. I do not own a home.

The success of the forum has been the participants and the folks who read here.

Eric said;
This blog is so puerile on a constant basis that it would take one hell of a makeover for it to gain the credibility of being informative as opposed to entertaining.

my response;
Eric, you know this blog is as informative as it is entertaining. Unless of coarse you don't believe anything you have told us. :-)

I am making good on my promise to Kathy Lantry to tone the blog down.

Eric,you know it takes alot to get banned here. I let folks carry on so we can all see them for who they are. I care deeply about people and the issues they are having over housing. I just wish the folks I have banned could understand the need to build bridges. I can't have them disrupting the vision I have had for this blog from the beginning.

8:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey, I am a Jeffersonian Democrat. I believe that the only way that the country survives is with an informed and educated public.

That is why it is worth it come on here and challange some of the bull shit that people try to spread. I agree with Eric what we see far to often is someone with an opinion and their mind made up and facts that don't agree with their made up minds make them hostile.

I have worked on hundreds of political campaigns, you kid yourself if you think elected are afraid to meet, talk to or debate the public. They do it all of the time.

What makes any of you think they are afraid of talking about blighted properties and their efforts to clean them up? There is not any diference between that any other topic where people argue.

I have wallked candidates and elected official into all sorts of hostile meetings.

JMONTOMEPPOF

Chuck Repke

10:01 PM  
Anonymous Bill Cullen said...

Eric: “The perspective we offer has been met with the most hostile, irrational responses ever.”

Me: Really? It took me about 30 minutes to create many questions for the roundtable. Why? Because all of the topics were already covered in this forum and NO ONE ever answered them rationally. But, you seem to believe it is *us* that are not rational. For fun, here is ONE of the questions I drafted… I look forward to your rational response:

1) St. Paul says a problem property is due to “constant calls to get rid of the junk, intolerable behavior by occupants and guests, etc.” Can you elaborate on what behavior St. Paul considers intolerable? Why does St. Paul address intolerable behavior using code enforcement?

I know my comments regarding this topic will be VERY rational. I will be amazed if you do anything other than duck it (irrational).

Bill Cullen.

10:40 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bob,

Don't get mad at me on this but, your understanding of pagerank is off the mark. You're taking credit from Blogger/Blogspot (owned by Google) and giving it to A-Democracy.

Google interprets a link from page A to page B as a vote, by page A, for page B. But, Google looks at more than the sheer volume of votes, or links a page receives; it also analyzes the page that casts the vote. Votes cast by pages that are themselves "important" weigh more heavily and help to make other pages "important.

Google assigns a numeric weighting from 0-10 for each webpage on the Internet; this PageRank denotes a site’s importance in the eyes of Google. The PageRank is derived from a theoretical probability value on a logarithmic scale like the Richter Scale. The PageRank of a particular page is roughly based upon the quantity of inbound links as well as the PageRank of the pages providing the links. It is known that other factors, e.g. relevance of search words on the page and actual visits to the page reported by the Google toolbar also influence the PageRank. In order to prevent manipulation, spoofing and spamdexing, Google provides no specific details about how other factors influence PageRank.

Numerous academic papers concerning PageRank have been published since Page and Brin's original paper.[2] In practice, the PageRank concept has proven to be vulnerable to manipulation, and extensive research has been devoted to identifying falsely inflated PageRank and ways to ignore links from documents with falsely inflated PageRank.

Now forget all of that. I'm not going to go on and try to be a smart guy. Its not A-Democracy but, Blogger/Blogspot (remember-a google owned web tool). Blogger sites are PR 9. Probably because its the most used online tool for Blogs and ANYONE who clicks into ANY Blogger site will be send 'click' for Blogger not the particular individual site. There are about 75 million Blogger/Blogspot blogs.

Next, you'll see that your profile is approaching 20,600. That's me refreshing on it, not over 500 people suddenly running to your profile. So easy on the ego buddy.

I don't think that any electeds are afraid, like I said, it only takes a little archive reading to see what happens to those who disagree.

When it comes to District Councils, I've only seen two of them of the 17 have real competitive races in the last few years. There is no restrictions on who can vote, its usually held at night and plenty of notice is given yet, people still complain. Now, I agree something should be done to get people to take notice, no way does is seem fair that 40 people can decide who serves on the council which represents 30,000 like over here. But, the thing about open elections and democracy is that those who show up- or send a proxy win. Most people who VOLUNTEER on District councils are just regular people and not insiders. The paid staff are the ones who oversee the day to day activities and decision making. However, in your example the council took a vote. If you look at the area, the answer as to why could possibly be as simple as there are enough closed businesses in the area, why add to that when they could have one paying into the tax system.

You had the name and number of the contact for that DC, and I suggested you call and get the info you seek. Votes are public information. You had a choice to seek out the truth or draw your own conclusion. Bob, you drew your own conclusion before gathering all of the information.

I have no skin in any of the above, just thought I'd correct some of your misgivings.

Eric

10:48 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What, you want me to answer that Bill?

Did you notice my question? Do you see how it works with yours? Do you?

You can add one more and that's:

Why are the rental codes for Saint Paul less restrictive than the surrounding the suburbs?

Probably won't get to that.

Eric

10:51 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

11:08 PM  
Blogger Bob said...

Eric, you make me dizzy.

I will make this real simple folks.

GO to any googles blog and click onto the blogs comments. You will not see a page rank like the one here.

If what you are saying was true Eric every ones blog regardless of how little it was visited would have a page rank. They don't.

15,000 comments, isn't this a relatively high number for a 22 month period at a blog Eric? You wrote a manuscript yourself here Eric. Or, maybe you would like to try and convince the readers I wrote ALL the comments.

Over 20,600 hits on my profile? What are you checking in there all day everyday Eric to see if the momentum is gaining?

I linked the Wikipedia. I know what it stated there. Let me tell you something. I just learned how to link text not that long ago I could not have manipulated the page rank or would I have the desire to do so.

11:13 PM  
Blogger Bob said...

Hi All,

I forwarded Kathy Lantry the questions Mitch and Bill chose from the citizens question pool.

After, Kathy reviews the questions she will give me the go ahead to start the Round Table.

I will take 2 days to send out invitations to interested party's across the city, state, and country, before I open the discussion.

11:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bob, I made a mistake, there over 130 million blogspot sites. 70 million was back in 2005.

You linked to the Wikipedia page. You see the complex algorithm that is part of the formula for determining page rank. You care to explain how you simplified that into people looking at your blog? For that matter Bob, can you explain the algorithm itself. You response to me keep saying no.

As of March of this year there were 148 Page Rank 9 site according to Google. Notice in that list you will not see A-Democracy, but you will see Blogger.

PageRank 9

Currently 148 domains

* AAAS.org - American Association for the Advancement of Science
* ACM.org - Association for Computing Machinery
* AltaVista.com - AltaVista, search engine
* Amazon.com - Amazon.com, shopping site
* AOL.com - America Online, portal
* APS.org - American Physical Society
* Archive.org - Internet Archive
* Arizona.edu - University of Arizona
* ArXiv.org - ArXiv.org e-print archive
* ASU.edu - Arizona State University
* BarnesAndNoble.com - Barnes & Noble, bookseller
* BBC.co.uk - British Broadcasting Corporation
* Berkeley.edu - University of California, Berkeley
* Blogger.com - Blogger, a weblog publishing tool
* Bloglines.com - Bloglines, web-based news aggregator
* Brown.edu - Brown University
* BU.edu - Boston University
* Cam.ac.uk - Cambridge University
* CBC.ca - Canadian Broadcasting Corporation
* CERN.ch - CERN
* CMU.edu - Carnegie Mellon University
* CNET.com - Cnet, technology portal
* CNRS.fr - Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique
* Colorado.edu - University of Colorado at Boulder
* Columbia.edu - Columbia University
* Computer.org - IEEE Computer Society
* Copyright.gov - U.S. Copyright Office
* Cornell.edu - Cornell University
* CreativeCommons.org - Creative Commons
* Debian.org - Debian, open-source operating system
* DHHS.gov - Department of Health and Human Services
* DHS.gov/dhspublic/ - Department of Homeland Security
* DOI.gov - U.S. Department of the Interior
* Duke.edu - Duke University
* eBay.com - EBay, auction site
* Economist.com - news site
* Elsevier.com - Elsevier, publisher of scientific and medical literature
* EnergyStar.gov - Energy Star
* EPA.gov - Environmental Protection Agency
* ETHZ.ch - ETH Zurich, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology
* ErekAlert.org - science news site
* Excite.com - Excite, portal
* Expedia.com - Expedia, online travel agency
* Flickr.com - Flickr, remote image hosting site
* Freshmeat.net - Freshmeat, cross-platform software directory
* FWS.gov - U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
* GameSpot.com - GameSpot
* GNU.org - GNU Project
* Google.co.uk - Google, UK version; several other versions are PR9 too, including French and Japanese versions
* Grants.gov - unified site for interaction between grant applicants and the U.S. federal agencies that manage grant funds
* Harvard.edu - Harvard University, Massachusetts, USA
* HUJI.ac.il - Hebrew University, Jerusalem, Israel
* House.gov - U.S. House of Representatives
* HP.com - Hewlett-Packard
* HTMLHelp.com - Information on web authoring
* IEEE.org - Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers
* IETF.org - Internet Engineering Task Force
* IIE.org - Institute of International Education
* IMDb.com - Internet Movie Database
* Indiana.edu - Indiana University system
* Inria.fr - INRIA, French national research institution
* Intel.com - Intel Corporation
* internet2.edu - Internet2
* IOM.edu - Institute of Medicine
* Jalbum.net - photo album software
* Java.com - Java programming language
* JHU.edu - Johns Hopkins University
* Linux.com - Linux Operating System
* LOC.gov - Library of Congress
* MamboServer - Mambo, open-source PHP content management system
* MapQuest.com - MapQuest
* Mozilla.org - Mozilla, open-source internet tools
* MSN.com - MSN.com, portal
* MSNBC.com - MSNBC.com, portal
* MSU.edu - Michigan State University
* MySQL.com - MySQL, open-source database engine
* NAP.edu - National Academies Press
* NAS.edu - National Academy of Sciences
* NationalAcademies.org - Science, Engineering and Medicine research
* Nature.com - Nature Publishing Group
* Netscape.com - Netscape, portal
* NewsForge.com - NewsForge
* NYTimes.com - New York Times, news site
* NIH.gov - National Institutes of Health
* NIST.gov - National Institute of Standards and Technology
* NOAA.gov - National Oceanic & Atmospheric Administration
* NREL.gov - National Renewable Energy Laboratory
* Oanda.com - Currency conversion site
* OpenSource.org - open source
* Opera.com - Opera Software, web browser for desktop and mobile devices
* Oracle.com - Oracle Corporation, software company
* Oreilly.com - O'reilly, computer bookseller
* ORNL.gov - Oak Ridge National Laboratory
* OSTG.com - Open Source Technology Group
* OX.ac.uk - University of Oxford
* PBS.org - Public Broadcasting Station
* Perl.com - Perl, scripting language
* PHP.net - PHP, web scripting language
* phpBB.com - phpBB, open-source PHP bulletin board system
* Pitt.edu - University of Pittsburgh
* Plone.org - Plone, open source content management system
* Princeton.edu - Princeton University
* PSU.edu - Pennsylvania State University
* Python.org - Python Programming Language
* Ranchero.com/netnewswire/ - RSS software for Mac
* RealNetworks.com - RealNetworks
* Realplayer.com - RealPlayer audio/video software
* RedHat.com - Red Hat
* Regulations.gov - portal for federal rulemaking
* Rutgers.edu - Rutgers University
* ScienceMag.com - Science Magazine
* Section508.gov - Section 508 Amendment to the Rehabilitation Act of 1973
* Senate.gov - U.S. Senate
* SI.edu - Smithsonian Institution
* Slashdot.org - Slashdot, technology news site
* SourceForge.Net - Sourceforge, a directory of open-source development projects
* Stanford.edu - Stanford University, California, USA
* State.gov - U.S. Department of State
* State.tx.us - Texas portal
* Sun.com - Sun Microsystems
* TRUSTe.org - web privacy organisation
* UCI.edu - University of California, Irvine
* UCL.ac.uk - University College London
* UIUC.edu - University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
* UMD.edu - University of Maryland, College Park
* UMich.edu - University of Michigan
* UMN.edu - University of Minnesota
* UN.org - United Nations
* Unesco.org - United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization
* UPenn.edu - University of Pennsylvania
* USC.edu - University of Southern California
* USDA.gov - U.S. Department of Agriculture
* URGS.gov - U.S. Geological Survey
* UTexas.edu - University of Texas at Austin
* UToronto.ca - University of Toronto
* VeriSign.com - VeriSign
* Virginia.edu - University of Virginia
* Vlib.org - World Wide Web Virtual Library
* Washington.edu - University of Washington
* WebStandards.org - Web Standards Project
* WHO.int - World Health Organization
* en.wikipedia.org - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (English version)
* Windowsmediaplayer.com - (redirect) Microsoft's audio/video player
* WinZip.com - WinZip, commercial archive utility
* Wisc.edu - University of Wisconsin
* WordPress.org - WordPress, open-source PHP blog script
* Yahoo.com - Yahoo!, portal
* Yale.edu - Yale University



Eric

11:44 PM  
Blogger Invisable Man said...

i see what you're talking about bob. went to several Googles blogs and none had a rank on the comment page. I'm sorry eric I'm having trouble choking this one down and it takesa scholar to understand what you posted.

11:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Google has not disclosed the precise method for determining a Toolbar PageRank value. Google representative Matt Cutts has publicly indicated that the Toolbar PageRank values are republished about once every three months, indicating that the Toolbar PageRank values are historical rather than real-time values.

What the hey, it doesn't matter because Bob knows.

For those who are truly interested in this question that has been bugging nerds, techies and the online pr world alike, click HERE Ian Rogers Blog is a great source for this info.

I wish I could say that I am shocked that I am among those who are willing to believe what sounds easy as opposed to what's hard. Easy doesn't make money or survive long. The tech world is still a multi-billion dollar industry and Google is at the top and its not because they're easy. They're good.


Eric

12:03 AM  
Blogger Bob said...

Finally Eric back pedals and post this;

Google has not disclosed the precise method for determining a
Toolbar PageRank value. Google representative Matt Cutts has publicly indicated that the Toolbar PageRank values are republished about once every three months, indicating that the Toolbar PageRank values are historical rather than real-time values.

I didn't know my blog Administrator was making an appearance. Folks meet the Invisible Man. He will be taking over should i need to get away from time to time.

I challenge anyone else out there to do as the Invisible Man did. Even Eric can't explain why A Democracy page rank in the comments is far higher than anything on the Internet.

I know you were jumping from blog to blog Eric looking at page ranks. You sure went to a great deal of trouble to prove nothing.

12:40 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You still didn't introduce yourself, you are still hiding behind some fake name. So you'll understand why I don't take whatever you have to say as anything I should be concerned about. You know nothing of me or who I know.

You also have a reading disorder, because I never said the city isn't racist. I have said over and over that you can bet there are some racist employees and those who are not racist but could give damn about blacks. I'm a former civil rights commissioner. I know more than you think but, that's not the subject of this blog.

I've known Johnny Howard for years because I've organized with him. If he says its a duck, I'm going to agree without question. I trust him. Campbell has not been involved in the black community in the same circles I've been in or with others who have been community leaders for years so, I don't know him. Therefore, I dont know his motivations. For all I know he could be one sucked into this RICO thing without an understanding of WHO he was crawling in bed with.

I do know over the years that I have been involved over here on the East side and in central St Paul, many black an asian poor tenants have gone through hell time and time again to get their landlords to fix basic needs in their units. For years I have watched these low-income unit owners fight in the community and in the courts against doing anything to clean up or fix their places. During that same time, I never heard a peep from the so-called good low-income landlords (RICO men). You would think they would help the city in getting rid of the bad players who rent out slum units and give all of low-income landlords a bad name. But, no. I heard nothing.

Now suddenly here they are suing the city calling their code enforcement tactics racially biased and that's not fair to the poor tenants. The same poor tenants that have (and still do) deal with hell from these landlords, according to the own testimony of some of these landlords.

No thanks, I'm not buying that bridge and neither are the courts. Johnny spent years fighting against those landlords in his neighborhood which is why he's not signed on to this RICO case. So, you may want to stop using him as an example.

Now, I don't know what you are but you are certainly part of the problem. You call me Carlton as an insult because it seems that I may have had some education beyond the ninth grade. Well, dumbass, I'm pushing for many more black children to take that route and ignore the people like you who'd rather see them with their pants down, no future and dependent upon some slumlord and government check. Fresh Prince was a tv show. Typical tv show formula featuring two black guys one street smart the other book smart. Its kinda played and if you really knew me, you'd know I'm both.

Instead of trying to make being smart an insult, how about getting smart yourself and addressing my comment and not attempting to dress down the commenter. Right now you're failing at both.


Eric
ps- I didn't comment until I was asked to twice. Who the hell asked you to comment?

12:53 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Can we get back to the real subject?

Bob posted important information and true to form Eric wants to talk about meaningless drivel.

Go blow your nose Eric.

Politicians aren't respectful of the citizens they are in attack mode. I seen the videos here of the city council meetings where the city treats property owners like insignificant slugs.

12:58 AM  
Blogger Bob said...

I'm sorry Eric. I deleted his post,

I was hoping you didn't see it.

1:01 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Your invisible idiot keeps deleting posts. He throws an insult then deletes after I respond.

Bob, I want you to leave your last post up. People need to see their fearless leader in motion. I have broke it down as much as possible without taking you through a math course that you or I will not get.

Look at the list Bob. You see Blogger on there which is what you use? DO you see Ademocracy?

Do you really think with billions of web sites- BILLIONS. Yours is top in the world?

You think more people come here than the New York Times? Or even the Eastside Review. More than every Major Research University or Government public information site? More than the billion porn sites? More than Google itself which is PR 9?

Even if you don't understand how its works which 99.9 do not, you have to have a logic stem still sparking telling you it can't be that easy.

Its not. And you're making yourself look pitiful dancing around like you've cracked the DaVinci Code. You haven't. Anyone who reads YOUR link or the one I sent will see that it has to be your 'carrier' blogger combined with its number of posts per reader. 15,000 posts by 11 people would give you a very high percentage. 5,000 are probably mine.


Eric

1:06 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

12:58am

I was asked a question Bob and some anonymous boob. I answered. Bob responded and we went into a discussion on PageRank. If its way past your bed time by all means go to bed.

Figuring who and the how many make up your audience is a big part of a round table or public forum.

So it is relevant. Now I'll get back to reading Bob's post about how wrong I am.


Eric

1:11 AM  
Blogger Bob said...

The Invisible Man is my backup adminstrator. He thought it was funny to delete my post and confuse the hell out of this thread because I deleted his Carlton bullshit to you Eric.

Eric, so you say 11 of us earned the page rank here. Yeah sure buddy. WHY doesn't twincities.com have a page rank this high when 50 people post there daily?

:-)

This blog gets hits from all over the world. Folks are bumping into this blog because of a simple interest. The words "A Democracy".

The page rank is a relevancy rating as stated in the information I posted about page rank.

I have sent links for A Democracy to cities, states, federal agencies, property rights advocacy's groups, law enforcement agencies,local and distant.

I have had the blog linked on the Leslie Davis Show. Bob Zick Show. I have had it linked at twincities.com repeatedly. I am on the Pioneer Press blog roll. I have had the blog linked in the Watchdog news and I passed out over 25,000 papers in Saint Paul.
I have published a News letter the A democracy News letter and distributed 2000 copies to residents door steps with a link to the blog. Mitch Berg and other have linked this blog at their blog.

Eric STOP trying to minimize my efforts and the number of citizens who read here.

Question Eric, why are you afraid this blog will draw in the masses for a discussion of our city?

1:46 AM  
Blogger Bob said...

Oh Eric, this is a good one!

I'm even linked on E Democracy's blog roll. :-)

And I must give credit to the many readers here sending links back and forth.

And we can not forget to mention all those city officials, law enforcement, county and state officials linking some of the stories here back and forth and coming to the blog for a looksie.

By George I wonder if this doesn't have something to do with the Googles rank Eric! Boy oh Boy isn't this what the rank information was talking about. IT DOES FOLKS! PERIOD! End of story. Googles page rank is a relevancy rating.

Obviously Eric we are reading the same information and we have 2 different perspectives. I feel I am right and you feel you are.

My personal opinion, you like this blog a lot you have fun here. You have been a valuable asset to the forum, only you pray like hell the average joe out there isn't reading.

A Democracy is like a small snowball that use to sit at the top of a mountain. It slowly started rolling down hill picking up more snow, dirt, stones and ROCKS. It is gaining momentum and the larger it gets the faster it rolls. Soon Eric, it will be out of control.

There is a city at the bottom of the hill and it is headed right for it! I'm trying to stop it. You are trying to say it isn't coming.

ERIC, I PRAY YOU ARE RIGHT and I am wrong!

2:30 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bob, the city links the blog back and forth while they are on the job.

2:43 AM  
Anonymous Bill Cullen said...

Yes, Eric. I want you to answer my question, to recap:

1) St. Paul says a problem property is due to “constant calls to get rid of the junk, intolerable behavior by occupants and guests, etc.” Can you elaborate on what behavior St. Paul considers intolerable? Why does St. Paul address intolerable behavior using code enforcement?

I have read your question out here before: Why are the rental codes for Saint Paul less restrictive than the surrounding the suburbs? I have never taken it on because I own rental property in the suburbs but have never had interaction with a suburban city hall at all (beyond purchasing a rental license), so I don’t know the restrictions of each city. But, before I try to take it on… What suburb are you talking about?

Bill Cullen.

8:23 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Eric just because you have had education past the ninth grade doesn't mean your smart.If you were you'd shut your trap so you don't end up looking stupid.Bill he won't answer.Why bother.




Sid

8:49 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bill, I know its rhetorical to me. Afterall if the city or the people who work for them haven't given a clear definition, how the hell can I?

That wasn't my question I submitted. My question, which dovetails yours, was:

"Are there other methods being examined to keep code enforcement from being strictly complaint based for COO properties?"

Eric

9:22 AM  
Blogger Bob said...

Eric, I had a bit of a social get together last night and some of us had a little to much to drink.

Sorry for deleting post you had responded to it was sure confusing trying to follow the thread.

12:43 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bill any behavior that pisses a neighborhood busy body off is intolerable.Expecially when that busy body is a Council supporter/voter. The kicker is that its behavior that isn't criminal.

Afterall if the city or the people who work for them haven't given a clear definition and Eric can't, how the hell can landlords obey the councils requests?


Maybe Chuck can help us on this one.Chuck can you?Chuck maybe your buddy Thune can help us on this one.Chuck if Thune is the best council person for property guys ask him to join the round table.



Tim Ciani

2:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"busy body"?

2:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey Tim,

They are just porkers at the city hall trough that like to push people around.

That's why George Orwell is so relevant here.

5:09 PM  
Anonymous Bill Cullen said...

Eric,

I recognize you cannot speak for the city, but I did not intend my question to be rhetorical. I honestly want to know what behaviors the city considers intolerable. It is a stated city policy.

You are right that the city has not given a clear answer to this question. But, what frustrates me about your post is that you claim to have given rational answers and that we are irrational. If you have a rudimentary understanding of what this blog is about, you would know that this issue is one of a few pillars of our frustrations with St. Paul.

As I consider your posts in this thread, you are unable to defend the policies of St. Paul, while calling *us* irrational for saying St. Paul’s policies are indefensible. Seems to me you have a choice: 1) Agree this policy is indefensible, 2) defend the policy or 3) blame the messengers and protect the policy makers.

“Rational” is defined by Webster dictionary as “having reason and understanding.” So who is irrational?

Bill Cullen.

6:51 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bill could you list your credentials for us. I believe its very important to lay this out for all here. You were the president of SPARL and a very successful landlord in the city of St.Paul that has recently pulled stakes.


I ask why? Why would someone who has been successful in this once great city and with open dialog with the council leave town?

Why does Mr.Cullen still have so many questions to ask the city council? And how would a landlord in the city with less access to the city council be able to understand what the city council wants?

What I think Eric and Chuck miss is the fact that when policy is created with in the city that all stake holders should have a say and understanding. With Bill Cullen at the top of the list for stake holders for property owners it looks like even he was left out.
So Chuck and Eric I commend these groups of landlords holding the citys feet to the fire to change the landscape all accross America on how they code enforce.


In the end money may be payed out but most importantly there will be change for all tenants and property owners alike.



Tim Ciani

9:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well said Tim.I respect Bills knowledge on this subject.He doesn't act like he knows everything and is always asking questions if he doesn't get it.

BILL KEEP ON YOUR TRUTH SEEKING MISSION WITH BOB.


Linda

8:32 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bill,
Its a complaint based system, which means its the citizens who determine what's tolerable or not by the number of calls to the police on the behavior of the tenants. Those calls trigger structural and other code inspections, thus the violations.
I see how this can be abused.

I also am aware of how some landlords are bad players in screening tenants AND letting their structures deteriorate. The question is about balance not, elimination as you and others on here advocate.

I am also aware that as a former Property Owner Activist, you play as if you are not aware of the lax rental system in St Paul compared to the surround burbs.

So, instead of being upfront about it (probably afraid it will change the focus), you play the game of specifics. I say North Oaks, you say 'of course'. I say Maplewood, you'll say 'which ordinance'. I say White Bear Lake, you'll repeat your Maplewood answer. I say West Saint Paul, you'll say 'political influence and discrimination'.

Point is, in the suburbs, its tougher to obtain the privilege to rent out property and those cities have more control over that license than they do in St Paul with the COO.

I also see how you need to make a villain out of me as if I defend the city every chance I get. I don't defend the city, I just show where there is huge doubt in some of these accusations.

You, Bob, Chuck and myself have stated our doubts about the RICO suit and its legitimacy. Yet, only Chuck and I are branded with the statement of having our heads up our asses. Chuck and I both have also agreed that their are some jerks who work for the city and I know that some are straight out racist. I know that the RICO suit does NOTHING to address that. Which leads me to the conclusion once again that the majority on here got a gripe with the city, they look to RICO to be the explanation for what they feel was a bad hand dealt to them. Its not.

I've answered your question. Before you asked it, I submitted the question about complaint based inspections. Answering my question will lead to the answer to the one you seek.

The question everybody should be asking is where were you when these codes were being publicly discussed by the council?

You were involved in SPARL. Surely you were on top of your job of representing your members by not just running your mouth and ignoring the bad players in your own organization but, keeping an eye on legislation presented by decision makers, especially those that can affect your bottom line. That should be the basic tenet of any representative member organization. Seems to me, you failed your members and then you packed it up and ran.

That's leadership.


Eric

10:57 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I also am aware of how some landlords are bad players in screening tenants AND letting their structures deteriorate. The question is about balance not, elimination as you and others on here advocate.


Eric could you please tell all landlords here what is ok to rent to and what is not.Examples..........Criminal backrounds-Felonies ok or not and if ok how lon ago do they have to be?Evictions ok or not and if ok how long ago do they have to be.Credit scores where should they be 600 and up?Are collections ok if a applying tenant has them?Checking police call records on an applying tenant-how many can they have at a previous address, if any?Rent income 2,3-how much times your rent should you make each year?


Eric I own rental in the burbs and I can tell you you are so wrong.Quit pulling facts out your ass!


You also say that when the police fail to through someone in jail they send out the code cops to harrass the owner so he or she will never rent to these types of people or go out of business.You should be the last person ever yelling racist do to the fact your city is causing racism.


I'd be scared to death to rent to a black person in the city of St.Paul do to the sterio type and they way the city targets.




Richard

11:18 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

In the complaint based system, I had my house reported by an inspector.

It looks like eric is trying to influence the discussion by sure volume. Eric, you can say black is white one million times and it doesn't make it true.

12:23 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Finally a slumlord speaks up.
Richard, you read as well as you lease.
You also say that when the police fail to through someone in jail they send out the code cops to harrass the owner so he or she will never rent to these types of people or go out of business.You should be the last person ever yelling racist do to the fact your city is causing racism.

I can't seem where I said this, condoned this or anything like it in two years of posting on here.

People don't yell 'racist', its racism and its pointed out, not yelled out. If you are going to sue on the matters race, then pretend like you have respect for it. Using the phrase 'yelling racism' is what we've heard naysayers over the years use to describe community leaders and ministers who have worked to bring it public attention.

Your weak illogical arguments have less of a chance working me over than they did in court. Piss off you low life.


Eric

12:27 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

12:23
Nope.
Looks like you all are trying to focus on me instead of the issue. Listen close Linus:

I ASKED THE FOLLOWING QUESTION:
Are there other methods being examined to keep code enforcement from being strictly complaint based for COO properties?

Word for word on the first day. That's what you ignoraphiles are seeking.

MY SECOND QUESTION SUGGESTION WAS:
Is there any action going on internally checking on accusations against code enforcement officers? When will that information become public?

Internally meaning the city.

Seems to me if you all weren't too busy getting a visually internal view of each others rear end, then you'd see that I actually asked the two questions at the crux of this entire debate.


Eric

12:35 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

MAPLEWOOD Code Enforcement Procedure

Code enforcement is an investment that pays off for a city and its citizens by helping to keep it vital. The enforcement of property maintenance and nuisance codes helps to ensure that there is a minimum level standard required for maintaining all properties in Maplewood. The primary goal of this program is to seek voluntary compliance with the provisions of the City Code, which provides for the maintenance of a high quality of life in the community, contributing to the improvement and stabilization of our neighborhoods, protecting property values and helping to promote a healthy and safe environment.

Many people are not exactly sure what to do when they have a compliant regarding a possible violation. What we advise is to first talk with your neighbor or property owner. Politely explain the situation and ask for their cooperation in resolving the problem. If your "good neighbor" effort fails, call us. We are happy to discuss the situation and will explain what type of steps we will take to have any violations corrected.



Complaint:

* Code Enforcement in the City of Maplewood is primarily a complaint-driven process but violations that are noted by city staff will be investigated and considered for enforcement action on a case-by-case basis.
* The complaint may be received from a resident, business representative, or City staff member via phone, e-mail, city’s website complaint form, letter, or by an appearance at City Hall.
* The information collected during an on-going investigation is information that is protected by the Minnesota Data Practices Act. The complainant's name is protected information, as is any inspection data, inspection result's, letters, phone calls, emails, or photos concerning the case investigation. Only upon closing of a case through compliance or issuance of a citation for prosecution of a case does select case information become public data. The complainant's name, however, remains protected information.

· To file a complaint, contact City Staff using the following options:

Website: Go to www.ci.maplewood.mn.us, click the Code Enforcement link on the left hand side of the home page and then click the phrase “file an online complaint here”. You will be directed to a form where information regarding your concerns can be sent to the inspections staff.

Phone: Code Enforcement Hotline Number - (651) 249-CODE (2633)

Mailing Address: City of Maplewood; Attn: Code Enforcement; 1830 County Road B East, Maplewood, MN 55109

In Person: Code Enforcement staff is located at the Maplewood City Hall, just one block southeast of County Road B East and White Bear Avenue, in the Inspections, Planning and Building Operations Department.

Inspection:

* Detailed information regarding the complaint is documented and an inspection of the property is scheduled to determine if a compliance request should be issued.
* Property complaints are inspected in a timely manner, with consideration of seriousness of the violation from a health, safety and welfare standpoint.
* The subject property is inspected from the public right-of-way or, with permission, from the complainant's property and findings from the inspection are noted.
* The inspection is conducted discreetly and with respect for the property and privacy of others.

Notification:

* Once a complaint has been verified by inspection, a compliance notice is issued to the property owner and, if applicable, to the occupant of the premises.
* The compliance notice is a brief document stating property conditions and references requirements of City Code.
* A sentence or two may be devoted to methods to alleviate the violation, and a requested compliance date is given.
* Occasionally, other information may be included with the letter such as a copy of the City Code Section and Subdivision, or helpful preprinted information such as information on special materials disposal options in the area.

Compliance:

* Conditions that are quickly and easily remedied are requested for compliance within 7 to 10 days.
* Conditions that may require a more involved resolution are given a compliance request date in keeping with the situation and its complexity.
* The property owner may contact the inspector in person or by phone for further information regarding the City Code, the enforcement process, or to seek an extension on the compliance date.
* If the alleged violator admits the violation(s) and requests extended time for compliance, the Code Enforcement Officer may allow a time extension if circumstances warrant and/or if a "good faith" effort has been made to correct the violation(s).
* Compliance dates are used as a guide and are subject to change if the property owner requires additional time to bring the property into compliance.
* The ideal outcome is complete compliance within the requested time.
* Occasionally, a second notification letter is necessary to encourage compliance.
* Infrequently, after all attempts to attain compliance are exhausted, a citation will be issued or a non-compliance case will be turned over to the City Attorney for resolution through the court system.
* The goal of code enforcement is compliance, not punishment.

If each of us will first consider the effect that our own actions may have on the property and people surrounding us, the ideal of achieving better cooperation and compliance will be off to a good start. If you have any questions regarding the Code Enforcement Division or the Code Enforcement process please feel free to call 651-249-2360.
----------------------

Another complaint based system that anyone can call in for any reason.

Eric

12:40 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Text to be displayed
Also rental license are up every two years and are only renewed after a thorough inspection of the following:
pdf Letter to owners of 1 and 2 family rental units

They keep a tight reign on their property owners out there and its probably why some of you come here. I'll post the difference with the Saint Paul certificate of occupancy in the next post.


Eric

12:55 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Other than endless verbiage from Eric, I think we are getting close to the truth. The Round Table is an effort to get good healthy public debate.

1:02 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bill Cullen asked:
I honestly want to know what behaviors the city considers intolerable. It is a stated city policy.

Bill its actually labeled as nuisance. And the state made clear what is nuisance behavior and list them in section 617.81 including prostitution, possession of controlled substance offenses and unlawful possession of a dangerous weapon. Legal action can be taken by the city under a bill passed in the Senate (SF2399) and in the House (HF2627), and then signed into law by this Governor.

All landlords received a letter from the Police Chief and DSI Director outlining this about two weeks ago.


So, there's the best way I can 'answer' your question. You and know you already knew this just like Richard knows the standards in the suburbs are more strict than Saint Paul. The both of you and others will throw what you can out there knowing that the vast majority will never connect the dots. I'm not part of the majority.


Eric

1:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Verbage" is code for "I'm too sstupid to read and will just wait for someone else I like to say something"?

1. i was asked what I thought about a roundtable here. I answered.
2. I was challenged on the greatness of this blog in the world by Bob- I stepped up.
3. Bill tries to sneak one in, then back to back on code enforcement and how I don't know shit. I backed it all up.

Now, we are back to the insults without input.

Wasn't this thread about informing us on the Citizen engagement process in Saskatchewan?

If you don't challenge me, call me out or mention my name, I won't respond with my 'verbage' and 'facts'.


Eric

1:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Eric said;

2. I was challenged on the greatness of this blog in the world by Bob- I stepped up.

*you stepped up but you didn't prove nothing.

2:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Looks like Eric has been handing out slapdowns over here.
Let's make this interesting, where's Chuck?

2:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

See you slumlords at the town hall meeting after the round table

Where is Bill Cullen?

As much as I despise Eric (Eric wouldn't know a real racist if the guy lived him), I don't think Bill has an answer for Eric's last post.

froggy
Hopping to clean up Frogtown

2:23 PM  
Anonymous Bill Cullen said...

Eric,

At 10:57 AM, you said “Its a complaint based system, which means its the citizens who determine what's tolerable” and then at 1:12 PM you said intolerable is from “section 617.81 including prostitution, possession of controlled substance offenses and unlawful possession of a dangerous weapon.” so... Which one is it? Then I will address you posts.

Btw, I did not receive a letter from the Police Chief or the director of DSI. Did other landlords get one? Can someone provide us with the text or a scanned version?

Bill Cullen.

2:29 PM  
Anonymous Bill Cullen said...

Eric,

There is no doubt in my mind that SPARL – and I – should have done more to fight Dawkins and Kelly on their abuses. We failed the community. We did complain enough to have the topic discussed in the Pioneer Press multiple times. We also set up multiple meetings with the city. On one issue we threatened the city with a lawsuit. We tried, but ultimately failed.

However, if you believe that a group at odds with an administration is now accountable for the administration’s actions solely because they failed at stopping the illegal actions, then can’t I blame the DFL and yourself for the invasion of Iraq? You clearly failed at stopping the invasion of Iraq.

You are using an argument to change the topic that is fundamentally flawed.

Bill Cullen.

2:42 PM  
Blogger Bob said...

Eric said;
The question everybody should be asking is where were you when these codes were being publicly discussed by the council?


my response;
I think the internet is the place to have these discussions live with the city council. THEN, more folks can be made aware of the meetings through a email list. This cost the city pennies on the dollar compared to an ad in a small local paper. Most folks use these papers for bird cage lining or they get thrown in the trash without even being looked at once.

Maybe I am wrong but, I think I read someplace that not a single person showed up in opposition to one of these meetings on code. I had no clue of the meeting until it was over.

In Saint Louis Park I lived in a predominantly DFL neighborhood. The invitations to important issues for community discussion were often passed out days after the discussion. I called the community council on this where I lived and I was shunned. Things aren't much different here with the way in which these notices to these meetings are sent out. Why didn't the city send out a invitation to everyone of the landlords on the C of O list for these meetings? Did they? If so I am not aware of it.

I feel the city could do a better job of bringing more citizens into the decision making process. I and others feel there is a group of people within city government who would like to keep the citizens involvement to a minimum for personal gain. They feel they have enough well educated citizens making decesions for all of us and there is no need for us average Joe's to say anything.

2:49 PM  
Anonymous Bill Cullen said...

Eric,

One last post and then I want to go enjoy this beautiful day.

It is YOU that maintain the suburbs are stricter than St. Paul – NOT ME. Now you refuse to give ANY guidance as to how the suburbs are stricter or what suburb is stricter and you patronize me for not presenting a clear and decisive argument.

YOUR argument is the equivalent of me saying “St. Paul is stricter than cities in Canada.” And, following your argument, I refuse to identify any particular ordinance or city in Canada. Now prove me wrong. Ready. Go. Don’t be a weenie.

It’s ridiculous.

I maintain my challenge to your assertion: Point to one suburb that is stricter than St. Paul and how it is more strict.

Bill Cullen.

2:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Maplewood is the one usually cited, and it is an exception. When I was looking for a house, people told me to avoid Maplewood and St. Paul.

5:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bill,
You really are relying on your supporters to be stupid or just blindly loyal.

On my post at 12:40 I laid the Maplewood code enforcement policy. It is just as strict as Saint Paul except, it doesn't specify how many complaints marks your property a nuisance which, would make it more strict that St Paul. Also, any ONE complaint by ANYONE (who can remain anonymous) can trigger an inspection and jeopardize your license to rent in the city. I believe in St Paul there is a process that you go through. No one looses out on the first shot.

Here's paragraph that seems to be the same thing you all crying about in St Paul:
* Code Enforcement in the City of Maplewood is primarily a complaint-driven process but violations that are noted by city staff will be investigated and considered for enforcement action on a case-by-case basis.
* The complaint may be received from a resident, business representative, or City staff member via phone, e-mail, city’s website complaint form, letter, or by an appearance at City Hall.


I provided the links and excerpts for two examples one in Maplewood and one in White Bear. Check it out for yourself but, again I know you know this and just are going to stick the line of 'St Paul is the only city that arbitrarily enforces its building and more specific rental codes', until you're caught trying to push a lie. You're caught, now its time to change the subject.

Before you change the subject, here's the link to a .pdf of the letter sent to landlords on July 23rd. St Paul Landlords Letter




Eric

8:35 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Eric why do you waste your time on this site?You are a complete idiot and show it in your logic.


I also appreciate all your civil rights movements in St.Paul.It has really helped them out.Out the fucking door to the suburbs.


Eric all these other suburbs are tougher thats why St.Paul has record vacant properties per capita then anyone in the state.The Suburbs do a lot of code compliances also.


Bob kick this dip shit off the blog before he gets his ass kicked when seen in public.


Eric FUCK off and tell your bitch Lantry the same!



Sid

10:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey Eric I read the chiefs letter to landlords and wondered why poop pant sagging thugs,loud music and bar-b-ques in the front yards weren't offenses.



froggy

10:20 PM  
Blogger Bob said...

Thank you for the link to the landlord letter Eric.

11:06 PM  
Anonymous Bill Cullen said...

Eric,

I do not see anything in the Maplewood code enforcement procedure (you posted at 12:40) that is MORE restrictive than St. Paul – however I have never owned rental property there so maybe someone with experience can jump in and fill the gaps? Is Maplewood MORE restrictive than St. Paul?

Honestly Eric, I don’t know the codes in most metro cities (if I did, I would blast your claim with facts). I have read St. Paul and Mpls codes – and do not claim to completely understand them. But, I will say this… In my 20 years of being a landlord, the only cities I have EVER heard a landlord complain loudly about are St. Paul and Mpls (and now almost exclusively St. Paul).

Ok, so your post at 10:57 was wrong and now you stand firmly by your post at 1:12 with regard to how St. Paul defines “intolerable” behavior. Have I got that right? So, if St. Paul defines intolerable behavior as the new laws passed on 1-Aug-08, how did St. Paul define “intolerable” before the law passed – which is the timeframe this blog has covered? The same? Sorry for being a stickler; but this is important.

I challenge your insinuation that I have lied; I did not.

Bill Cullen.

11:16 PM  
Blogger Bob said...

Excerpt from landlord letter;

The Minnesota Legislature recently approved SF 2399/HF2627 which was signed by the Governor
laws and affects the number of triggering incidents required for specific offenses.
on April 24, 2008. The new law makes important changes to Section 617.81, the Public Nuisance

I went to the Minnesota House Of Representives website and searched information on S.F. 2399HF2627 and this is a brief discription of the information I got.

Information on S. F. No. 2399HF2627
2007 - 2008
Regular Session

Short Description: Medford wastewater treatment facility construction and water system improvements grant bond issue and appropriation

What's up with this?

Is "SF 2399HF2627" a misprint on the landlords letter?

11:45 PM  
Anonymous Bill Cullen said...

SF2399 is correct (click on my name to read about it).

Bill Cullen.

8:13 AM  
Blogger Bob said...

Thanks Bill,

I figured out what I did wrong. I searched the Senate File and House with both numbers together instead of breaking them down.

You posted when I was researching my error.

8:20 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sid,
Threats online are just stupid and do nothing but chill debate from those who oppose your viewpoint. Very un-American you Commie. If you disagree, trying framing a real debate instead of name calling and threats.

'Kicking my ass' is something I'm sure some would like to do however, 'how' to do it or, finding someone 'who' can do it is another dilemma for you haters. Remember, when you're all fired up to go and kick someone's ass, you're bringing an ass to the dance too.

What do you add to this site aside from anger and internet tough guy talk? Why should I leave when, much like in real life, you add nothing and when gone, its actually a better place to be.

Angry and stupid is a terrible way to go through life. You and Froggy should move in together, on one fo the RICO guys properties.

Now don't go and get all heated, its Sunday and we wouldn't want your sundress to get all wrinkled.


Eric

9:01 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bill,
Even before the state law was passed. So, while I didn't know about it before you asked, it doesn't change the fact that it was there.

Sec. 45.03. Nuisance.
A "nuisance" shall mean any substance, matter, emission or thing which creates a dangerous or unhealthy condition or which threatens the public peace, health, safety or sanitary condition of the city or which is offensive or has a blighting influence on the community and which is found upon, in, being discharged or flowing from any street, alley, highway, railroad right-of-way, vehicle, railroad car, water, excavation, building, erection, lot, grounds or other property located within the city. Nuisances shall include, but not be limited to, those set forth in this section.


The liar term was applied because you've said yourself that you know the codes and you were once the head of an association of landlords. How can you lead an organization an not understand the constraints or freedoms you have in your part of the 'industry' compared to your nearest competitors?

Many of the landlords own property in the suburbs (aside from their homes), none of them told you that its a whole different ball game out there? When you were in charge of SPARL, the codes in Saint Paul were very loose for single family and duplex rental units. So, they have gotten tougher in the last two years but, not up to the rules and, more importantly, the control, suburbs have over the rental licenses versus the certificate of occupation.

Hope that helps. Again, you were a horrible leader if you did not know this and failed to be sure your members had a clear understanding of the codes and suburban competition. Or, you were more concerned with being a 'friend' to the city and trusted Kelly and crew to take care of you.


Eric

9:31 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why isn't the city going after the people producing the nuisance?

This new law passed still doesn't address the real problem-CRIME. So a landlord does his job and never rents to a criminal ever again.Then who does and where will they live?


ERIC-Saint Paul were very loose for single family and duplex rental units. So, they have gotten tougher in the last two years but, not up to the rules and, more importantly, the control, suburbs have over the rental licenses versus the certificate of occupation.


CIANI-Are you kidding Eric?Why do you think theres some many rentals forclosed on and vacant then any other city in Minnesota?




Tim Ciani

10:05 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Tim,

These new laws are more of the same shit from politicians.

PASS THE BUCK! Make others responsible for crime. The politicians say- We can't afford to lock all these criminals up!

10:22 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Tim and 10:22,
We also maxed out on the levy for taxes in St Paul, a large part of that due to the fact that we demanded more cops. We've graduated two classes since then with another on the way this Fall.

Our force was under the per person capita of other cities with St Paul's population. Therefore a nuisance call would take a back seat to an assault, which would take a back seat to an aggravated assault. Cops handling three and four calls at once have to prioritize. Its a shitty way to police and hopefully we'll be able to fix that with new cops and some old but true crime prevention methods.

Second, there still is some responsibility on the property owner for the tenants. Just like bar owners who get in trouble for their bartenders who serve drinks to drunks and then the drunk commits a crime or dies. Liability doesn't end when you offer a lease.

No one is advocating against law enforcement arresting and removing these individual bad players. As a matter of fact, neighbors don't call DSI for nuisance issues, they do call the cops. Few people even know about the stuff we're debating here.
Your landlord living in Shoreview, or somewhere else than the block their property is on, had little interest in making a good faith effort to not rent to another bad player one after the other.

And the city does go after the people making the nuisance. You keep renting to them and they keep going after them.

This seems to happen with single family and duplex rental property more so than the complexes where the investment is bigger and management is more professional.

Finally, the citizens, with full support from the city, have a responsibility to make sure that calls are not discriminatory by being based on race, age, ethnicity or number of children. If the city has dropped the ball anywhere, it MAY be there in the sense that there is no committee overseeing this. Sure, the Human Rights Department usually sees this but, how many people know when to call them and report something and how long does it take for the process to start. I know the answer to both and its not good. People being removed from homes should get a just and fair hearing pretty quick.

So, a citizens oversight committee on Code Enforcement or something along that vein would be a step in the right the direction.

Of course, some of you will then complain about who gets to sit on that committee.


Eric

10:51 AM  
Blogger Bob said...

Eric said;
So, a citizens oversight committee on Code Enforcement or something along that vein would be a step in the right direction.

my reply;
Here is another example of common ground Eric. Put anyone you want on the committee Eric. But, I think a fella just like me should be on it also. :-)

How do we go about putting a committee together?

11:37 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Eric neighbors call DSI when they see that cops and the judges haven't done their job.So they know the trick of calling in peeling paint and so on.

If bar owners are responsible for their patrons and landlords of their tenants,shouldn't St.Paul be responsible for the bad citizens?At the end of the day didn't St.Paul lure them here?


Eric and Chuck could you please lay out a criteria for someone with a record,low credit score,evictions on their record and so on.I'm sure we can all agree most tenants have problems in these areas.It is also common that people of color and low income people have atleast one flaw in these areas.


So could you please lay out some criteria that is required when trying to rent.



Tim Ciani

12:00 PM  
Anonymous Bill Cullen said...

Eric,

You continue with the ridiculous logic of blaming SPARL or I for St. Paul’s actions. As I clearly articulated above, if the landlord groups are responsible for St. Paul’s actions, then you are responsible for Iraq – you failed at stopping that too. Very weak argument – and you continue using it.

Shall we return to the question asked before you dragged out this Red Herring?

What behavior does St. Paul find intolerable?

Eric’s responses have been all over the board. At 10:57 AM, Eric said “Its a complaint based system, which means its the citizens who determine what's tolerable” and then at 1:12 PM Eric said intolerable is from “section 617.81 including prostitution, possession of controlled substance offenses and unlawful possession of a dangerous weapon.” Then this morning at 9:31 intolerable became “any substance, matter, emission or thing which creates a dangerous or unhealthy condition or which threatens the public peace, health, safety..”

We just keep getting no answer from Eric… Only efforts to blame US for the actions of his friends in power.

SO WHAT BEHAVIOR DOES ST. PAUL FIND INTOLERABLE?

Bill Cullen.

12:27 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bill, Bill, Bill. You truly are a fan of Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly. You should just emulate them, not try to imitate them. You suck at it.

Bill's assertions in italics below.

You continue with the ridiculous logic of blaming SPARL or I for St. Paul’s actions. As I clearly articulated above, if the landlord groups are responsible for St. Paul’s actions, then you are responsible for Iraq – you failed at stopping that too. Very weak argument – and you continue using it.
Congress has the job of declaring war. Congress is supposed to put the check on the President- not just blindly go along. Congress represents the people and yes, they failed us. Congress was ran by Republicans and the people punished them in 2006 by voting them out of power. Great analogy.

You represented Landlords/Property Owners. You failed to look out for their interest. You failed to balance your own self serving interest with the city over those you supposedly represented. Like Congress, you failed to keep a check on the administration. You did manage to get funding for SPARL. Good for you.


Bill:
Shall we return to the question asked before you dragged out this Red Herring? What behavior does St. Paul find intolerable?

Eric’s responses have been all over the board. At 10:57 AM, Eric said “Its a complaint based system, which means its the citizens who determine what's tolerable”

It is a complaint based system. As it is in the suburbs. St Paul is no tougher than they are.

and then at 1:12 PM Eric said intolerable is from “section 617.81 including prostitution, possession of controlled substance offenses and unlawful possession of a dangerous weapon.”
It does. What's your point? Its a complaint based system with a statute detailing what legitimate complaints are. Is that too much clarity for you?

Then this morning at 9:31 intolerable became “any substance, matter, emission or thing which creates a dangerous or unhealthy condition or which threatens the public peace, health, safety..”
That's the city code- not the state statute. It was on the books prior to the statute passing. If you look at the city code, and then read the state statute, you'll see that they fall right in line, with the state statute giving detail to the city code.

We just keep getting no answer from Eric… Only efforts to blame US for the actions of his friends in power.
No. Anybody reading can see you're getting exactly what you're asking for. This disingenuous verbal shell game you're trying to play is starting look pitiful. As I provide MORE information, none of it contradicts the previously provide information. I think we are starting to see why you were such a failure at SPARL.

SO WHAT BEHAVIOR DOES ST. PAUL FIND INTOLERABLE?
Smartass landlords who try to blame the city for their own shortcomings.



Eric

1:13 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I hear the ricomen are going to fix that city code for you Eric. How would you like to not have one at all?

2:12 PM  
Blogger AMANDA said...

2:12, (This is a warning) stop reading right now and go put some more tin foil on your head "this message could reach your mind and cause serve damage"

if you think the RICO mens case is so strong they will end code enforcement. You're nuts!

3:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"SO WHAT BEHAVIOR DOES ST. PAUL FIND INTOLERABLE?
Smartass landlords who try to blame the city for their own shortcomings."

You are both wrong. The correct answer would be whatever behavior or cultural differences the racist neighbors can get the vote grabbing bigot gang on the City Council to go after with their behavior police.

3:12 PM  
Anonymous Just a Lurker said...

3:12
You are wrong sort of. Looks like Eric already pointed out that possibility and gave a solution. I don't know why he writes so much when you don't look at it all.
)))))
Finally, the citizens, with full support from the city, have a responsibility to make sure that calls are not discriminatory by being based on race, age, ethnicity or number of children. If the city has dropped the ball anywhere, it MAY be there in the sense that there is no committee overseeing this. Sure, the Human Rights Department usually sees this but, how many people know when to call them and report something and how long does it take for the process to start. I know the answer to both and its not good. People being removed from homes should get a just and fair hearing pretty quick.

So, a citizens oversight committee on Code Enforcement or something along that vein would be a step in the right the direction.
)))))

3:51 PM  
Anonymous Bill Cullen said...

Eric,

Once again you missed the analogy. SPARL is a landlord education group. Unlike Congress it has zero power. The correct analogy would be to compare SPARL to your advocacy groups (which failed on Iraq, using your logic) and Congress to St. Paul City council. You seem to relish blaming the messenger for the actions of your powerful friends.

But you finally gave an answer to the question of intolerable behavior (geez, THAT was painful). If I understand you right, citizens make the complaints and St. Paul has a DUTY to figure out which are legitimate before doing anything. Right?

The problem is twofold. First I have zero evidence the city assures behavior complaints are legitimate. It appears bigoted complaints from Froggy receive the same response as legitimate ones.

Second, “legitimate” complaints now include “prostitution, possession of controlled substance offenses and unlawful possession of a dangerous weapon.” At what point should St. Paul FORCE housing providers to eliminate all housing options for a family (or bear the consequences)? When a neighbor suspects a violation? When an arrest happens, but no conviction? When a conviction occurs? Should all crimes result in homelessness (littering to murder)?

Bill Cullen.

4:04 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have a real credibility problem with Eric.

The citizen's oversight committee sounds like a good idea. Why didn't they have it all along?

Another nuisance behavior apparently is questioning the professionalism or ego of city personnel.

5:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"No one is advocating against law enforcement arresting and removing these individual bad players."

What the hell you talking about? Everyone is advocating against law enforcement with thier politically corrct BS of holding the landlord responsible for everything while they tie his hands behind his back.....That includes you Eric. You been here for years advocating the same failed BS cause you're not man enough to admit your DFL failed policies are what's causing the crime adn you Democrats are more concerned with looking good and winning elections than you are dealing with problems in alogical and common sense fashion. If you're not part of the soloution then you're part of the problem buddy. Have you government buddies go do some expensive study that you can all bag a free vacation off of and you'll find out the truth. In the meantime, stop lying to us.....we're not that stupid.

6:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"AMANDA said...
2:12, (This is a warning) stop reading right now and go put some more tin foil on your head "this message could reach your mind and cause serve damage"

if you think the RICO mens case is so strong they will end code enforcement. You're nuts!

3:09 PM"

So how much do you want to bet Amanda. The city code enforcement program is going to cease to exist the way we now know it. Common big mouth......how much? Bob can hold the money. This is your chance to get rich honey - easy shot, just put your money where your mnouth is.

7:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Where's the lie 6:58? Outside everything you wrote except your name. Wait, you didn't even 'truth' us with your name. Having a lying coward who won't use their name or offer any solution call me out on being a 'man' is so insane I have no analogy for it.

I'll have to say this over and over again. Nobody has backed up what they write on here MORE than I have. Its the wonderful double standard that states if you are not with us, then you have to prove everything you say- and then some will still not believe or admit to error. Such is life at A-Democracy.

I'm on record at least three or four years ago, asking about the process with the explicit concern of code enforcement taking over for law enforcement. Although the I worked against the Police Federation in the last Mayors race, I reached out to the leadership afterwards to ask about improving policing for the quality of life crimes. Hence me getting on board with the more cops campaign.

There's more but, the real question is what have you done one way or another aside from mouthing off anonymously on a blog?

Bueller? Bueller?

Eric

8:35 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What problem you got with my credibility since everything I write I have to show proof?
You don't know me and you like my ideas. Chill out and just say thank you.


Eric

8:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Many of us can't use their names because they have been threatened and had their families threatened and beaten up by city inspectors and their support. The cowardice is in the city.

9:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

whatever 9:37.
More bullshit. Did someone threaten you? Who? Name them? What city employee threatened you and your family?

Too much Sopranos.

9:52 PM  
Anonymous Bill Cullen said...

Eric said: "I'm on record at least three or four years ago, asking about the process with the explicit concern of code enforcement taking over for law enforcement."

I did not realize this. I wish our fine city of St. Paul would realize the impact this change has.

My concern Eric, is that the actions are not just unethical, but maybe illegal. Time will tell as the city council has not bent on their policies and now we have court cases to consider it.

Regards, Bill Cullen.

10:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's good that you reach out Eric. That's not typical of the people of your political party. The only time they reach out is with a knife in their hand after you turn your back to them. Maybe you're different, I don't know you, but one thing I do know Eric.......ricomen gonna be reaching out to you before too much longer. They gonna want more property tax from you......a lot more.

11:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The nature of the threats does not permit discussion at this time. There is documentation, and it is consistent with racketeering.

6:54 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Don't wanna take me up on my bet Amanda? No I didn't think so....I wonder why?

7:27 AM  

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