Heritage Fondation responds to the health...
posted by Bob at Thursday, March 25, 2010
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Thursday, March 25, 2010
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31 Comments:
The Heritage Foundation is a right wing think tank that has been wrong on more things in the past year alone that I'm surprised that they are still raising money.
Its the same group that brought us the type of government that led us into two wars of that were just budgeting for now, two massive tax cuts for the top 2%, that we're paying for now, deregulation of the banking system which led to the bailouts that we're paying for now and ignoring the rising and punitive cost of health care which we're doing something about.
The Heritage Foundation is the ultimate right wing propaganda machine. I notice a lot of words from him but nothing in the bill that the find offensive- or, nothing specific about how its unconstitutional. After all, it passed the exact same way the Republicans passed two major tax cuts and altered the entire economy by using it to pass the 2005 Deficit Reduction Act (which it did the opposite- increased the deficit to a record level), and the 1995 Budget Act. Its called majority rules. And, while Dems cried about it- we were in the minority and that's how it goes. Americans voted for Democrats two times in a row. Majority rules.
He mentioned something about republican attorney generals suing (he didn't say so but its based on the 10th Amendment and mandates) but, its a waste of tax dollars. Why? Because in the bill there is an OPT-OUT clause for any governor to sign. Virginia has already done it (yet the AG is still trying to sue).
See? If you take the time to read this stuff yourself, the law that is, you won't have to rely on those with other agendas like some 70 year old former republican staffer who runs a propaganda org- no, THE main propaganda organization on the Right.
Oh yeah, I notice him and other Republicans are saying that reform is needed. You know why? Because the American DO want reform. We delivered it and the Rpeublicans didn't. Repeal is already being backed down by Congressional republicans (they only ones who can vote on it) because Health Reform is popular and they don't have enough votes to support.
However, they will continue to talk the talk and fund raise over it.
Think about this Bob- how does repeal really work? Do you know?
Eric
USA TODAY/ GALLUP POLL
Nearly half of Americans give a thumbs-up to Congress' passage of a healthcare reform bill last weekend, with 49% calling it "a good thing." Republicans and Democrats have polar opposite reactions, with independents evenly split.
Source: USA TODAY/Gallup Poll of 1,005 adults Monday. Margin of error: +/-4 percentage points.
----------------
I guarantee you that the next poll will show increased support as people realize that its not as its been sold to them by the Republicans. Every Independent who was wronged by their insurance company or child was born with a condition will see positive points in this plan.
People voted for a Democratic majority who ran on health reform, the republicans are just now talking about it after having ten years to do something and chose to do nothing. Now, they are going to work themselves in a permanent minority.
Eric
Eric, you will do anything for your party. Even sway the truth.
LINK HERE to unbiased polling data
FACT, the MAJORITY of American citizens do not want this health care bill as it is written.
You had a mouth full to say about the Heritage Foundation. Are you sure you weren't confusing them with ACORN?
By PHIL GRAMM
For every dollar's worth of health care that Americans received last year, they paid a dime and somebody else paid 90 cents. If you bought food the way you buy health care—where 90% of everything you put in your basket was paid for by your grocery insurance policy—you would eat differently and so would your dog. We have the best health-care system in the world, but as rich as America is we can't afford it.
Any real debate about health-care reform has to be centered on solving the problem of cost. Ultimately, there are only two ways of doing it. The first approach is to have government control costs through some form of rationing. The alternative is to empower families to make their own health-care decisions in a system where costs matter. The fundamental question is about who is going to do the controlling: the family or the government.
President Obama and his congressional allies systematically excluded every major proposal to empower consumers to control costs. From beginning to end, they insisted on a government-run system. That's why compromise was never possible.
The plan signed into law by the president on Tuesday is simply a hodgepodge of schemes to expand insurance coverage and government power with no coherent program to control cost. By contrast, the old Clinton health-care bill was a plan to control costs through health-care purchasing cooperatives, standards of medical practice, and penalties for providers who violated those standards. When Americans came to understand the loss of freedom resulting from the Clinton plan, they rejected it. The Democrats learned from that experience. This time around they simply left their cost control component to be added later.
Even though the Obama bill became far more unpopular than the Clinton bill ever was, the daunting size and rigid commitment of the Democratic majority to a government-run system was such that they could override public opinion. Now the Democrats are out to make Americans like their plan—or at least get them to acquiesce to it. But as Gandhi once explained, 40,000 British troops cannot force 300 million Indians to do what they will not do.
Republicans have a job to do. They must make it clear to the American people that this is only the beginning of the debate. There will be two congressional elections and a presidential election before the government takeover is implemented in 2014.
I believe that Republicans should take the unequivocal position that if they are given a majority in Congress in November, they will stop the implementation of the government takeover. And if a Republican is elected president in 2012, they will do with Mr. Obama's health-care bill what the American voters will have done to the Democrats: throw it out. If the voters demand change in November, even the Democrats who remain in Congress will help give it to them.
If Republicans don't want America to follow Britain and Canada down the road to socialized medicine, they must change the system so that families have more power to control their own health-care costs. This will entail real changes like tax deductions for health insurance, not for prepaid medicine; refundable tax credits for families to buy their own insurance; freedom to negotiate with insurance companies; rewarding healthy lifestyles; tort reform; and reforming Medicare and Medicaid so every consumer has deductibles and copayments based on their income. This system will require Americans to make choices in health care—just as they do in every other area of their lives.
There is one more overwhelming reason freedom is so critical in health care. In the end, even the greatest health-care system in the world fails. At 92, my mother decided to stop going to the hospital, stop going to the doctor, stop taking her medicine, and to die in her own bed. It was a free choice, and she made it. For her family, it was a painful choice, but she died as she lived—proud and free. Government bureaucrats did not make that decision; she did. And that made all the difference.
Mr. Gramm, a Republican, was a senator from Texas from 1985 to 2002 and served as chairman of the Health subcommittee of the Senate Committee on Finance.
Masters of Distraction
By David Harsanyi
The mob is furious. And while it hollers on about "killing" bills, Republicans stoke the fury by calling on citizens to "target" races in "battleground" states.
Get it? "Target." The violent intentions are palpable.
Most Americans abhor violence and no serious person has offered excuses or rationalized the actions of the smattering of loons who have threatened politicians who voted for health care reform.
But this campaign of distraction mounted by Democrats meaning to smear millions of Americans involved in legitimate political expression is as transparent as it is distasteful.
The narrative: Fearful underdog Democrats (true if you ignore their notable majorities in both houses of Congress and control of the presidency) are fending off hordes of ferocious, irrational detractors to do what's right.
Democrats insist Republicans must condemn - over and over - this imaginary rise of widespread radicalism. In doing so, they are implicitly accusing Republicans of controlling the aforementioned radicals.
Other Democrats, like Majority Whip Jim Clyburn, went as far as to claim that Republicans were "aiding and abetting terrorism" against Democrats.
For those grappling with history, here's what a "mob" looks like: furious citizens raiding the Bastille, stabbing and decapitating its governor, Marquis Bernard de Launay, and placing his head on a pike to parade around Paris streets to cheering crowds.
Or, to put it in more contemporary terms, think anti-capitalist, stone-throwing, Starbucks-hating, economic-justice thugs. Or perhaps radical environmentalists who burn down housing projects and research facilities for Mother Earth. For a domestic terrorist, you won't need to go farther than your local Chicago university to spot a Weatherman - sorry, Weatherperson.
And one would think that with all the threats politicians get every year, they would be more serious about whom they accuse.
Rep. Russ Carnahan, for instance, claims that a coffin was displayed near his home, which I will grant would be awfully intimidating - unless, of course, it turned out that the coffin was used in a peaceful political candlelight prayer vigil, as it was. (Go to Google for pictures.)
Maybe Carnahan confused prayer candles for torches.
We also heard terrible (third-hand and unsubstantiated) reports of folks spitting out "N" words and "F" words at representatives walking through Washington protests. Now, I wouldn't be surprised if it happened. It happens all the time.
"I've received threats since I assumed elected office, not only because of my position, but also because I'm Jewish," said Republican Whip Eric Cantor, who had a bullet shot through his office Monday. "I've never blamed anyone in this body for that. Period."
Democrats claim that the "mischaracterizing" of the substance and motives of their health-reform legislation generates angry and violent reaction. Well, I suppose that's subjective. There is a strong case to be made that the Republican characterization of Obamacare is far closer to reality than that offered by Democrats.
The real problem is that Tea Partiers represent the means of obstruction. They must be discredited, first as robotic foot soldiers of the insurance companies, then as out-of-control and potentially violent mobs.
Neither is true. Or, as the president likes to say, it's just another distraction.
Three things:
First all that passed was a few minor government regulations on the private insurance industry. Those are the things Eric has posted about them not being allowed to refuse to insure you or to kick you off of the plan and to make them allow you to keep your kids on your plan for longer. Simple regulation of an industry that gets away with murder. Very constitutional under the commerce clause.
Second, nobody is FORCING you to get insurance. What will happen is by 2014 everyone who has insurance will get a TAX BREAK and those who don't have insurance won't get the tax break. No communist conspiracy there. Just like SSI or Medicare you have to pay the tax, but nobody makes you take the benefit. Bob, you can refuse to get paid your SSI when you retire, you just can't refuse to pay taxes. Just like they make me pay for the war in Iraq that I don't want to pay for, but they make me... taxes too are constitutional...
Nothing unconstitutional in the bill.
Third, as to the polling data, its always in how you ask a question. It you asked Eric and I, "are you happy with the health insurance plan that passed?" We might say no, because we don't think it went far enough. It takes to long before anything I want goes into effect and there isn't a public option. But, that doesn't mean that I don't think it is better than nothing. I saw one poll the other night that showed the numbers just that way, that when you ask the second question of why they don't like it, about 1/4 of those against, think it is to weak.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Calling me a liar Bob?
If you look at my responses on Health Reform, you'll see that I've been trying to avoid the usual back and forth and keep a decent conversation. Grow up and do your own work and stop being a sheep.
USA TODAY/ GALLUP POLL
The RCP is a great site- if you know how to read it and use it. Your link leads to polls done BEFORE the signing. The Gallup Poll I cited is the only one done after the House passed the bill. People saw that the sky did not fall in and are actually learning about the law.
The bias and unbias-ness of a poll can be drawn from the chosen sample, statistical analysis and the cross-tabulations. I've been reading, writing and analyzing polls for eleven years FYI.
The following poll shows that the American people are NOT sick of the Democrats.
Poll on Favorability of the President and Congress
Let go, ACORN is not in existence anymore.
Once again I'll ask- what of my words on the Heritage Foundation do you think is made up?
You ran from backing your claims on Health Reform and now you're doing the same with the Heritage Foundation.
Eric
People still quoting Phil Gramm? I thought you Tea Baggers were against the Wall Street bailout?
Every step of the way it seems that these people are wrong about their facts on who did what to them and what's in the legislation they are protesting against.
That's why as time goes on, and their story falls apart, more Americans distance themselves from them.
Eric
The USA poll! Laughable! We all know this News rag is a democrat spin machine.
Should we believe your single link or the multitude of polling data here?
Folk's Eric's link on the Presidents favorability. Is nothing more than a lieing democrat operatives blog.
Gotch ya Eric!
Eric said;
Let go, ACORN is not in existence anymore.
My response;
Not in existence because they were exposed as being a corrupt liberal machine.
Eric said;
Once again I'll ask- what of my words on the Heritage Foundation do you think is made up?
My response;
Spin bullshit.
Eric said;
You ran from backing your claims on Health Reform and now you're doing the same with the Heritage Foundation.
My response;
I didn't run from nothing. I'm still here putting the other side of the story out there. I made myself perfectly clear on the issue. I think the health care bill is intrusive into our lives. It's just another tool the Democrats are using to make our country dependant on government and the Democrat party. STEALING FROM citizens who have worked to have a good living to give to people who don't know the concept of capitolism is sick!
I worked for what I have and NOBODY is taking it away from me! I will retire if this shit happens and I won't pay shit into the system (Tax's). Entrepenuers will punish America and take their business to country's that have a favorable business climant. LIKE MEXICO!
All of us can agree we need health care reform. I and a MAJORITY of AMericans do not want this Democrat health care plan that is nothing more than a tool to control the population.
Bob, you didn't just try to compare Mexico's business climate favorably to the US, did you?
The government of Mexico can't police the streets. Crime is at an all time high. People with any money live in fear of being kidnapped. No one in their right mind would move a business to Mexico, not if they had to live there.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Thank you Chuck.. You made some very reasonable statements.
Well Chuck, look at it this way. After multitudes of entrepreneurs take business to Mexico because of the unfavorable business climate here the economy there will flourish the violence in Mexico will dramatically decrease as their citizens gain financial security through capitalism.
On the other hand I see the economy here taking a bigger dive than it already has. When that happens crime will flourish.
It is possible you and Eric are in a bubble and really don't see how bad the economy is. Most of the time you guys seem to be just cheering on the team with little regard to how dirty the team is playing.
I know a lot of folks who have been looking for a job for over a year. They are selling off their assets just to survive. They are also burning up their credit. That must be real good for our economy. :(
China has a good business climate.
Americans polled on Obama economy
Link above
The USA poll! Laughable! We all know this News rag is a democrat spin machine.
Are you retarded? Really?
I just gave you the three factors that analysts check out when it comes to polls to gage their legitimacy. Doesn't matter who pays for them if they are done right.
Try to explain why the USA TODAY is a democratic rag. Also, the poll was done by Gallup. You ever hear of them? Probably not.
Sit back and learn son:
The Gallup Poll is the division of Gallup that regularly conducts public opinion polls in more than 140 countries around the world. Gallup Polls are often referenced in the mass media as a reliable and objective measure of public opinion. Gallup Poll results, analyses, and videos are published daily on Gallup.com in the form of data-driven news.
Historically, the Gallup Poll has measured and tracked the public's attitudes concerning virtually every political, social, and economic issue of the day, including highly sensitive or controversial subjects. In 2005, Gallup began its World Poll, which continually surveys citizens in more than 140 countries, representing 95% of the world's adult population. General and regional-specific questions, developed in collaboration with the world's leading behavioral economists, are organized into powerful indexes and topic areas that correlate with real-world outcomes.
Gallup Polls are best known for their accuracy in predicting the outcome of United States presidential elections.
----
Should we believe your single link or the multitude of polling data here?
Nope. Read it all and draw your own conclusions.
Note that I said the biggest difference is that RCP has not updated any since the passage of Health Care Reform. USA TODAY/Gallup is the only one so far.
Folk's Eric's link on the Presidents favorability. Is nothing more than a lieing democrat operatives blog.
What lies? The link goes to the cross tabs and you can see exactly who was asked what. That polling data is included in the compilation polls that you find listed on Real Clear Politics site.
You know, I don't slam people for not being educated but, there is no excuse for being stupid when all you have to do is read what's put in front of you. You're being stupid on purpose here.
Gallup Poll the best unbiased daily polling data in the World
Even Bob's RCP site has Obama approval on the upswing
Unlike Biased Sites, Gallup Publishes its List of Experts and Encourage You to Contact Them
Gallup's Senior Scientists
You're in my area now Bob. The reason you loose elections and court cases is because you are so bad at reading public opinion. You ask whomever is sitting to the left and right of you and decide they must represent most people. Just like you did with the landlord lawsuit, every election in the city, every prediction on the court rulings.
The secret is the republicans did a good job of demonizing this health reform and firing people up and left the Dems no choice but to move on without them. Now that its passed, and people will see that most of the things they're against is NOT in this law, they will come around. Loose-Loose for you Republicans.
Eric
All of us can agree we need health care reform. I and a MAJORITY of AMericans do not want this Democrat health care plan that is nothing more than a tool to control the population.
Really? So we all can agree we need reform?
So, who comes up with it? Congress?
How does it get through Congress? A majority vote with amendments from the majority and minority?
That's exactly what happened.
The republicans have been acting like they lost a war- since they lost the election and have been playing a zero sum game among the most ignorant of us. This website has just bought into the full time.
Bob, who's own family utilizes government services and he freely admits to not paying his fair share, pushes this bullshit. Bob doesn't own property or a house but, somehow is the mouthpiece of the landlords in their battle against homeowners.
Bill Dahn, another frequent poster and leader on here. He doesn't have a pot to piss in or window to throw it out, is completely dependent on the government- rails against government regularly.
Different low-income landlords come on here and kick the government around but are first inline trying to take advantage of the government provided rental vouchers and tax breaks.
All of you got your hands in the cookie jar yet, complaining about the baker.
I need a break from this madness.
Eric
Long winded explanation there Eric to support one polling group.
I listed a multitude of information contradicting your singular link.
Someone else left a link with a poll showing Obama's popularity is going down the tubes.
I have to go to work. So have at your spin Eric. In the mean time look at that billboard on the front page. You and your friends in the democrat party are pissing off citizens to the point they are screaming revolution! When was the last time we as a country heard that word used in these terms? Late 1700's!
Eric said;
Bob, who's own family utilizes government services and he freely admits to not paying his fair share, pushes this bullshit. Bob doesn't own property or a house but, somehow is the mouthpiece of the landlords in their battle against homeowners
My response;
Eric does your nose grow? I pay my fair share and I help support Cinnamon when I am not legally required to do so. Stop lying! I am a home owner. Paid CASH for my house!
Eric said;
Bill Dahn, another frequent poster and leader on here. He doesn't have a pot to piss in or window to throw it out, is completely dependent on the government- rails against government regularly.
My reponse;
No leaders here Eric. Just citizens who have found a place they can post their comments without fear of government retaliation.
Eric, speaking of landlords, did you check out my latest comment on the FBI investigation into your DFL buddies
Long winded explanation there Eric to support one polling group.
That's because I'm working with a very slow group here so the more information you give them, the more likely something will sink through.
You just gave a link. I gave a link, the history of the organization, the decision makers behind the organization and the scientists who construct the polls. You can't do it because they don't make all of that information public. They don't trust you. You messing around in a field that you really are not equipped to address.
I listed a multitude of information contradicting your singular link.
Someone else left a link with a poll showing Obama's popularity is going down the tubes.
More proof you should get a refund from whatever grade school you dropped out of. I sent links to the same site. The main difference are the numbers before passing health reform- all the ones you have, and the numbers after posting health reform- what I presented. Your lies are not coming true and people are growing fine with it.
When was the last time we as a country heard that word used in these terms? Late 1700's!
No you moron. It was the 1960's against civil rights. The conservatives and southerners fired up the ignorant and we went through a period of demonstrations, assassinations, political shifts and it tore the country apart. For what? Nothing. At the end of the day Civil Rights, Voting Rights, Medicare, Medicaid, Clean Water Act, Community Development Grants and better disability payments ALL remained law.
You have been burning up the tubes posting other peoples' words but you yourself Bob have not and cannot articulate your opposition to what's in the law.
That's smart.
Eric
Eric does your nose grow? I pay my fair share and I help support Cinnamon when I am not legally required to do so. Stop lying! I am a home owner. Paid CASH for my house!
Whatever! You just bragged about not paying taxes. You just told us she was on public assistance. She's not working and you're not paying taxes- how are you paying your fair share?!
Your hand is in the cookie jar just like your landlord buddies.
If you are a homeowner now and paid cash- I'm sure that money trail leads back to one of your landlords friends that you are the mouthpiece for.
I'm starting to understand this place.
Eric
Eric said;
Whatever! You just bragged about not paying taxes. You just told us she was on public assistance. She's not working and you're not paying taxes- how are you paying your fair share?!
My response;
Where was I bragging about not paying tax's? Factually it appears you are the one with a grade school education. You can't comprehend what you read.
I pay tax's Eric. I get a 1099 for the work I do. I am an independent contractor. I haven't hid this from anyone here in all the time I have been here.
I know you have been stuck on getting readers to believe for years I was some lowly handyman who didn't have a pot to piss in. That is what you do best, demonize your opposition.
Eric said;
You have been burning up the tubes posting other peoples' words but you yourself Bob have not and cannot articulate your opposition to what's in the law.
My response;
I made it clear I was concerned about government forcing me to pay for other citizens health care. What don't you understand about that ERIC? You are the one who choose to take this discussion off in a direction that has nothing to do with my concerns.
How many of your Democrat Congressmen read the bill? A fuc*king small handful, as proven in the media lately. But the morons voted for it didn't they.
You and your pals in the Democrat party are nothing but a bunch of white collar THUGS!
I got something for your Democrat friends who want this health care plan Eric.
here it is
ON THE CHAULK BOARD for the reading challeged.
Bob....I worked for what I have and NOBODY is taking it away from me! I will retire if this shit happens and I won't pay shit into the system (Tax's).
Key word ---->"retire" = no income tax
Eric & Chuck, tell us why Bob should pay for your health care cost? lol
the last gallop poll on obama was march 10th 50% favor 49% against
bob's polling link is recent not favoring obama
you dick eric.
I said;
When was the last time we as a country heard that word (revolution)used in these terms? Late 1700's!
Eric's response;
No you moron. It was the 1960's against civil rights. The conservatives and southerners fired up the ignorant and we went through a period of demonstrations, assassinations, political shifts and it tore the country apart
My response;
I remember them days Eric. Most of your Democrat activist were really terrorist posing as civil rights activist, screaming the word revolution! Burning our flag and spitting on our soldiers as they came home. It is no wonder I couldn't relate the word revolution to anything but the real revolution of the 1700's.
Funny how one of those Democrat terrorist wanted by the law for murder and police car bombing found refuge, comfort and companionship among the DFL insiders of the City of Saint Paul.
Conservatives in control have the discipline to work the system and not stoop to lowly un-civil actions.
In the name of a fine Republican Martin Luther King Jr. conservatives are peaceful activist. I know you will come here and claim violence against Democrats over the health care bill. Non sense, knowing your operatives I'd say they'd do about anything to get attention. Dirty corrupt scum bags.
You have earned your party a history lesson Eric. I hope you enjoyed the new topic. "History of Democrat Racism"
JMONTOMEPPOF Chuck Repke
Anonymous said...9:56 AM
Bob, you didn't just try to compare Mexico's business climate favorably to the US, did you?
The government of Mexico can't police the streets. Crime is at an all time high. People with any money live in fear of being kidnapped. No one in their right mind would move a business to Mexico, not if they had to live there.
I was at the Mall of America Jesse Ventura said he loves Mexico and lives there almost six months a year.
So who is telling the truth about Mexico
Bob
Prior to the
attack on the World Trade Towers, the most damaging domestic terrorist attack was by right wingers - Timothy McVeigh et al who killed 168 people (I will not list the names to shorten the post but they are remembered in the Oklahoma City Memorial.)
The previous one was a train derailment in 1995 in Palo Verde which killed Mitchell Bates and injured 78. Notes were found citing the Waco siege although no one has been charged and robbery is considered a possibility although none took place. In this instance the rails were
separated and wired together to send a "track ok" signal to the train.
I personally put the killing of abortion doctors and staff as political terrorism which adds the murders of David Gunn, MD, George Patterson,MD, John Britton, MD, James Barrett, Shannon Lowry, Lee Ann Nichols, Robert Sanderson, Barnett Slepian, MD and George Tiller, MD. The five deaths,
Robert Stevens, Thomas Morris Jr., Joseph Curseen, Kathy Nguyen, and
Ottilie Lundgren, from the 2001 anthrax attacks were also abortion
related according the the FBI' I will not bother to include the maimed and wounded nor the attempted murders but will not the since 1977, 41 abortion related bombings and arsons have occurred.
Looking at "pure" right wing terror we have Kenneth Anderson killed in a 2004 Tulsa bank robbery to raise money to avenge Waco, Arlindo DePina
Goncalves, Salma Goncalves and her sister killed by a white supremacist angered by the Inaguration of Barack Obama the day after he was sworn
in, I could go on but how long can a post be. Here are two links:
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/publications/terror-from-the-right
http://www.adl.org/learn/extremism_in_the_news/White_Supremacy/Keith+Luke.htm?LEARN_Cat=Extremism&LEARN_SubCat=Extremism_in_the_News
Bob - I lived through the civil rights movement and the Vietnam war protests. There were very few nut cases on our side taking our violence on the racists and the war supporters... and many more acts of violence against the protestors.
They shot protestors in Kent State.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
History has shown there is extremist in both major party's.
I have never heard of a Libertarian extremist. :)
Vote all the incumbents out. Republican and Democrat!
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