Where will they go?
posted by Bob at Saturday, January 24, 2009
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Saturday, January 24, 2009
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20 Comments:
In addition to the things they mention in the article, the predatory code enforcement going on in the city.bruers
Former NY Senate Majority Leader Indicted on Federal Corruption Charges
US V. JOSEPH L. BRUNO
(U.S. Dist. Ct., N.D.N.Y., Jan. 23, 2009) - Republican Joseph Bruno, the former New York Senate Majority Leader, was indicted by a federal grand jury on criminal charges accusing him of public corruption by accepting nearly $3.2 million over more than a decade from labor unions. Read more...
the Grand Jury Indictments, the RICO Landlords have a similar case, which should be refiled in the criminal_ mandating Grand Jury
http://news.lp.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/nys/usbruno12309ind.html
It's just so amazing that in this present day of big time corruption amongst senators and govenors, the likes of Chuck and Eric still don't see it !
They just refuse to believe that this shit goes on in St.Paul.
Jeff Matiatos
But, this is someone taking real money in the real world. What you guys talk about here is nonsense that the City is trying to get rid of 40% of its residents for no apparent reason and that it wants to put a dozen landlords out of business to make longer lines at PHA.
There is never anything here about monies being steered to someone or projects not completed and some elected official with a piece of it... we get the mayor and the head of DSI get a kick out of hurting poor people for fun and no profit.
GIVE ME A PLOT THAT MAKES SOME SENSE... give me someone that gets something!!!
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
I think the articles referenced are old. Regardless, this topic is not disappearing. A few comments from the author and my thoughts:
“[the foreclosures] will lead to tighter vacancy rates and upward pressure on rents”. Not if the market is allowed to work -- homes being foreclosed on would be purchased by investors and rented back to the families for less than they were paying to buy two years ago. However, city gov’ts are passing laws to prevent or penalize conversions to rentals.
His solutions are humorous:
“We need to keep people in their homes thru pre- and post-purchase counseling.” Really? This foreclosure crisis is a counseling problem? And all this time I thought it was because people borrowed too much.
“Strengthen laws prohibiting predatory lending and do a better job of mortgage screening.” In other words, make it harder to borrow money to buy homes. I guess it is true that homeless folk don’t live in unaffordable housing!
“most important, we must make a significant investment in affordable rental housing..” Aaaah, now we hear their real solution: Give us more taxpayer money and we will build an empire to solve the problem.
If you surf around, you will find MN Housing Partnership talk about the $114 Million dollars Minnesota has allocated for the 2010-2011 biennium. Wow.
Bill Cullen.
Why is it that the Rehbiens had a hand or 2 in building just about every house in Lino Lakes since the 1960s ?
They have had pull at city hall for almost 50 years and counting.
You can look at the cities books and see that this is true.
I lived there for from 68-88 and my family still lives there.
You don't need to see that cash changed hands in that town to realize what was going on.
What I believe the lawsuits are really saying is that St.Paul engaged in a plot to eliminate and or relocate poor people and minorities out of the city.
St.Paul was willing to put up with PHA because by now, it had police living in just about every Hi-Rise and stacked the PHA board with cops and other influencial folks willing to adhere to this mandate for turning over St.Pauls housing stock into more desirable structures and or new places of buisnesses.
Whats going on in St.Paul is not about cash Chuck !
Jeff Matiatos
Jeff you do realize how insane that is... don't you?
Saint Paul has a huge percentage of its population living below the poverty line. PHA barely scrapes the surface. Most low income people rent from private landlords. Most landlords have few problems with keeping up their property. The City isn't, hasn't and didn't try to get rid of 40% of the residents of the City. Only a mad mand would think that anyone would try to do that and it would take a thousand years to do it by condemning 10 houses a month (which would be a lot on any City council month of meetings).
Yes, the City has an obligation to make sure that the people are safe and that the poor are not exploited by living in unsafe situations. But, none of this has anything to do with the NATIONAL forecloser crisis.
In the neighborhood I work in on the east side the vacants are not vacant because someone turned them in for code violations. In fact most of the housing stock is in good shape. The reasons for the vacant are the FLIPPERS couldn't flip any more. We have hundreds of formerly invester owned properties that were just let go. Some of them went from home ownership to "FOR RENT" to vacant without ever being rented.
Most of what went on in the central cities is investors that were buying with little or nothing down and then flipping and doing it again and again and again. What we see out here is the houses that were unflippable at the end.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Well Chuck, the RICO men have said that this is whats been happening at thier expence and their damed pissed about it !
You suggesting that this senario is insane, is just an arrogant comment aimed at deflecting the accusations of wrongdoing someware else.
If 10 houses a month is really all the city condemed a month, it was only because a drastic number would destroy the tax base before the city could recover and rebuild what they tore down and or could find renters or landlords more suitable to its purposes.
It has little or nothing to do with keeping people safe, its just an excuse they use to justify its actions when questioned.
Jeff Matiatos
It is about cash Jeff......at least partly. City of St. Paul has fraudulantly taken hundreds of millions of dollars form HUD under the guise that they would abide by certain contractual obligations.....i.e. take action to further fair housing. What they did was just the opposite by having one code for the private sector and another code that wasn't even enforced for the PHA. When someone complains about a private landlord, the landlord gets shut down and ran out of town. When a PHA tenant complains about repairs, etc. that tenant doesn't get his unit repaired, but gets retaliated against by the landlord.....PHA. Having a stricter code for the private sector created a disparate impact against low incomes becasue of the horendous expense in meeting illegal code compliances. That is a violation of the fair housing laws regardless of how Chuck wants to spin it.
Chuck your off base and out of your league.Let me take it from here and help you alittle bit.Pointing you figer at something with no evidence is dangerous and reckless.
Many of the vacant homes that sit across the city have become this way for many reasons and theres to many to talk about here.The matter to talk about is why are they sitting empty for so long?The reason they sit is for the fact St.Paul has ran investors out of the city,put barriers in place to slow rehabilitation,and made the code compliance cumbersome.
What the city should do at this time is get people in these houses.How can they do this?Place a moratorium on code compliances.If the city has faith in the Fire and Safety C of O program they should allow this to be the inspection to re-occupy.Allow the banks to sell without restrictions.And last but not least allow them to be owner occupied or rentals.
The City should have made it a top priority to bite this problem in the butt before it gets worse.We are facing danger with the vacant building crises and are at a tipping point.We need the city to act and get these vacnts down to pre-real estate crash levels.
Thank-you
Joe
Joe,
How can Chuck be wrong ?
The city is giving re-hab money out hand over fist.
Why would the city run investors out of the city ?
Give us some examples of just who these investors are that are being run out of the city !
Place a moratorium on code compliance ?
What would this solve other than to put people out of work and delay
needed code compliance ?
How about force the banks to sell their vacant propertys so us tax payors can guit picking up the tab for upkeep and because these banks don't have to pay property taxes for three years ?
Your in another world Joe.
Chucks friend
What??????
My friend is a realtor and he is telling me people do not want to buy in St. Paul because of the over regulation. How much more does one have to know. It all starts trickling down from there. Hesitant buyers = no money in St. Paul's economy.
Wow, I have a friend??? How did that happen?
Anyway, as to the "ran investors out of town" statement, it kind of depends on what that means.
The economy wiped out a lot of infomercial want to be millionaires. That is what is plaguing the Hillcrest/Hazel Park/Conway neighborhoods of Saint Paul. I kid you not, we have houses that were bought by "investors" from homeowners and flipped and flipped again and now are in foreclosure and they never made it to have being successfully rented. Nice little bungalows that went from $150,000 to $175,000 sit vacant, not from any inspections issues but from "YOU TO CAN BE A MILLIONARE!!!"
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
John Shoemaker attorney for the Fair Housing Plaintiffs taking Caty Royce of the Community Stabilazation Program deposition.
There maybe copy errors.
Q What was the difference between Mayor Coleman, Norm
Coleman, and Mayor Randy Kelly from the standpoint of
this push or promotion of considerable funds into new
production of housing, whether it was called Advisory
ask Force or Housing 5000? Can you give me just ageneral response to that question? I know it's a little broad, but --
A Sure. My sense of it is that it was a market driven reality so when Norm was -- when Mayor Coleman was in the Mayor's office, it was a very different situation out in the community. There was a lot more vacancies. It's
almost like we're entering into a new cycle of that now,
but there was a lot of disinvestment, a lot of vacancy,
and the rental vacancy was extremely tight. Norm was
doing a lot of demolition, using a lot of city funds to demolish affordable housing. We lost, boy -- we frequently tried to go in every three, four years and
tried to figure out how many -- we meaning the Community Stabilization Project -- how many units we'd lost, what
type of funds were used. We were particularly interested
in tracking Community Development Block Grant funds in the hopes that we could require replacement of those units through that period. And then at the tail end of Norm's time they started to use a significant amount of
public subsidy to go after large complexes. They wanted to demolish Concord Square, known as Bluff Park Homes now. We intervened strongly there, Community Stabilization Project, and they jumped across the city to
the East Side and went after a complex called the Lakewood Apartments. They successfully demolished that --
Q That was around the Lake Phalen area there?
A Yes. Huge amounts of public subsidy that were basically
given to Real Estate Equities on that project.
Q Terry Troy's group?
A Yep, Terry Troy's group. Keith Jans, who worked for PED
for many years and then went over to Real Estate Equities, so --
Q This was all under --
A That was all under Norm.
Q -- Norm? Okay. Norm Coleman?
A Yep. And so then when Kelly came in, I think it was a
completely different market. The market was -- there was
a lot more cash available, the interest rates dropped,there was -- and a real need to do construction. I mean we were screaming bloody murder. All the advocates on one side saying we need more affordable housing. And
Kelly is politically smart, so he saw an opportunity to build a program that looked good, that sounded good and that actually used the market more than anything else to get a bunch of units built.
Q Okay. The Section 8 project based programs in the city
of St. Paul, have you followed that over the last 14 years at all from a standpoint of the issue, that I've seen nationally anyway, where certain owners of those
types of project based Section 8 apartment complexes have
made choices to convert to market which obviously can
have an adverse effect on the availability of those
previously affordable units? Have you seen that kind of
phenomenon here in St. Paul at all?
A So when we talk about the Cathedral Hill Homes lawsuit,that's the actions I'm talking about.
Q Okay.
A And what they were going after.
Q Okay.
A And I've also watched, I mean similarly is the huge cuts,
draconian cuts to the public housing agencies as well.
It's a similar reality.
Q Have you followed in the last couple years where the
project based apartment complexes are from a standpoint
of any potential threat of conversion to market? Is that
something that you're following or not?
A Very tightly, yes. We have a database. It's not housed
at the Community Stabilization Project but it's the
Housing Preservation Project. It's a public interest law
firm.
Q Okay.
A So we're meeting on a monthly basis. We're down to probably every six months now, every three months but,yeah, there's a tight watch on that.
Q Are there any projections as to whether or not there's
going to be a threat there to existing apartment complexes as it relates to potential conversion and loss of those affordable units?
A I think there's a sense that we've battled the biggest
and the most right now. I think there's an interest in
watching Section 42 or tax credit properties. Several of
those are kind of coming up as a need to be refinanced,
need an influx of capital for maintenance. A lot of
those have kind of been ignored over the last ten, twelve years, so there's that, but the larger complexes which,
potential loss of the mortgages, I'm not aware of any
that are impending right now.
Q You kind of referred to tracking or replacing units that
were demolished. And my question to you, which I don't
know the answer to this, I had Cheryl Pemberton from PED
here for a deposition, short deposition, and my
understanding from her is the tracking by the City or the
requirement by the City to replace units that are
destroyed or demolished only relates to certain types of
specially funded affordable housing and does not relate
to the private market that is providing affordable housing. Do you know if there's any tracking by any organization as to the loss of privately owned rental
properties that, let's say are -- have been directed
toward low, very low income tenants?
A I think that's beginning right now.
Q Okay.
A I think entities including the Housing Preservation
Project and I think Housing Link might be doing some of
that, but that is something that is just starting to get
looked at carefully by the advocates right now.
Q So it's a tracking issue, correct, trying to track what
the overall loss has been --
A Yeah.
Q -- in affordable housing?
2 A But if you're talking about the Housing Preservation
3 Project or if CSP gets involved, it's rarely just
4 tracking, it would be tracking with an attempt to
5 preserve.
6 Q Have you been concerned about the large increase in the
7 number of vacant buildings, primarily single-family/
8 duplex type structures over the last couple years, where
9 Mr. Magner testified recently I think the City's number
10 of vacant buildings is approaching 850, maybe a little
11 bit more than that?
12 A Very concerned.
13 Q I read in a draft report by the city council research
14 staff, I think Marcia Moermond's group, policy group,
15 study group, on mortgage foreclosures, I think the
16 statement was that a predominantly large portion of those
17 vacant buildings were rental properties. Do you have any
18 knowledge of whether or not that's the case?
19 A I would not question that assumption. I don't know that
20 for sure.
21 Q You represent tenants in the St. Paul area, correct?
22 A In the Twin Cities area.
23 Q Okay. Because I know you've also done some work in
24 trying to preserve some housing up in the northern part
25 of the Twin Cities?
1 A Brooklyn Park.
2 Q Right, on some potential teardown or demolition of some
3 large apartment complexes?
4 A Yes.
5 Q How is that coming along?
6 A There was an original move to have a referendum, right,
7 so that was the original organizing was to try to stop a
8 $35 million referendum which they were going to use for
9 demolition of 900 units or more. So we successfully
10 stopped that mostly because tax payers don't want to
11 spend money on that kind of crap, but the City has come
12 back at it with a new study. They extended some tax
13 increment districts in order to generate some revenue so
14 there are funds there. There will, I think, be some
15 demolition, but there's also a replace ordinance now in
16 place that will hopefully get us replacement of a
17 majority of those units.
18 Q Now, the Hollman decision required -- are you familiar
19 with that decision?
20 A Mm-hmm.
21 Q -- required the change in focus, if you will, of having
22 the subsidies in one location, concentrated, if you will,
23 and didn't it require that the suburbs kind of take an
24 active role in trying to build more affordable housing,
25 or at least that was the hope?
A That's the political hope, yes.
2 Q I've looked at, at least the PHA management reports that
3 come out almost on a monthly basis and they have their
4 waiting list for PHA owned and managed properties and
5 they have waiting lists that are published for Section 8
6 privately owned but federally assisted, funded apartments
7 and those numbers seem to have increased over the last
8 couple of years. Have you been following that at all as
9 far as for the waiting lists and number of families
10 waiting for homes?
11 A Only that they hardly ever open up the waiting list, so
12 yes, I'm aware of that as part of the problem.
13 Q Do you have an opinion as to what kind of numbers of
14 individuals are looking for housing in St. Paul? Do you
15 get -- through your role, are you able to kind of get a
16 feel for that or not?
17 A Oh, yeah. I mean, it's hundreds. I know right now many
18 people who are doubled up, so there's a lot of people
19 looking for affordable housing. It's the price of the
20 rents that's the problem.
21 Q So the market rents are high is one element of it. Is
22 that right?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And then the fact that there's not enough subsidies would
25 be another factor?
A Right.
2 Q Are there any other factors there that you can see plain
3 there with --
4 A Vacancies -- I'm sorry.
5 Q Go ahead.
6 A I interrupted you. I'm sorry.
7 Q No, that's fine.
8 A Vacancies and continued demolitions.
9 Q The vacancy issue, how does that play a role in the
10 waiting list and the number of people that continue to be
11 added to the waiting list?
12 A Okay. On the PHA waiting list?
13 Q Yeah, or Section 8 --
14 A Probably not much. I'm talking about the private market
15 when I talk about that.
16 Q So are you including in the private market the Section 8
17 rental waiting list?
18 A No. But if you want to talk specifics about Section 8,
19 the cuts to -- at least in St. Paul, and I know to
20 Minneapolis is thinking about doing this and they may
21 have done it, but they've sold a significant, to my
22 world, 16 single-family/duplex units, larger bedroom
23 units, which is where our need is the greatest, sold them
24 for the operating dollars.
25 Q Now, this is Minneapolis?
A This is St. Paul.
2 Q Right. And that was back in 2004, wasn't it?
3 A They did another one this year, 16 of those units. So
4 that is a huge problem. First of all, it's the larger
5 bedroom units. And just the fact that you've got a PHA
6 that has to sell their existing stock to generate their
7 operating dollars is -- it's outrageous.
8 Q Did you describe it as cannibalism? I think I saw --
9 A I might have done that.
10 Q -- some comment that you made when Director Gutzmann was
11 kind of announcing the most recent decision to sell off
12 the 16 single-family larger bedroom units.
A That's how I see it.
So Chuck tell me why houses that were sold by homeowners to investors who kept flipping them without even being lived in would need a stringent code compliance?
Chuck I am an investor who chooses not to invest in St.Paul dud to the tough regulation.If I can make just as much money in another town with less headache why would I bother in St.Paul?I also know many more like me personally.I also believe Bill Cullen feels this way also.
I hear you blame slumlords,banks,flippers,infomercials and so on.But not once have I ever heard you say one word about the past or present City administration thats holding the reigns.Inability to correctly address a problem whether created by you(administration) or other forces while in control can be the sole fault of the administration.
Joe
I'm also an investor and would not touch a property in St. Paul at any price. Regulation is too bizzare.
Joe, it depends on what properties you are looking at.
Come out to my neck of the woods and look at some of those houses and they will meet code compliance with no issues. The problem is that the banks see that and are still trying to get over $100,000 for them. Since that is the case "investors" aren't as interested in them.
The houses that are going to run into code issues are on the market for less than $100K in fact the ones that are of concern are for sale under $75K. Today on the MLS in Saint Paul there are 492listings (active/pending/temp not showing) of single family houses under $75K in Saint Paul and 157 duplexes. This doesn't count any of the bank ones that are currently not listed!!
Of course the City is going to be concerned about what will be the condition of those properties when you look to move poor people in them. They want to make sure that they will meet the code. So, if that is what you are looking to buy and have the City turn their heads, you have an issue.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Of course the City is going to be concerned about what will be the condition of those properties when you look to move poor people in them. They want to make sure that they will meet the code. So, if that is what you are looking to buy and have the City turn their heads, you have an issue.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Ya sure Chuck... By the time a investor brings the properties up to current day code, with the city ignoring grandfathering laws, the homes will be priced out of the market for poor people to rent.
9:48 "Ralph" - so then your position is that poor should live in properties that don't meet the code. And, that City government should knowingly encourage that to happen.
The point of the Bostrom ordinance is that if the state has a reason for having a building and fire code and if it is a good code, then at some point old properties need to be brought up to code or the state shouldn't have the code.
To do that the City isn't going in and making everyone upgrade their house. The City is saying once the house becomes a vacant property... in effect ceases to be a "home" or a "residence" and becomes an empty shell (no power or water...) a "vacant building" then the City will require that the property meet the code before it once again becomes a house/home/residence.
Now, you may not like that, but that is what is the deal.
So, if you want to "invest" in Saint Paul and not have to bring a building up to current code, buy one that still has someone living in it. Because then the grandfathering still works.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Chuck, it's impossible to meet current code. Too many codes for an old house, can't happen. What they do is say they require current codes and then arbitrarily pick which cudes. Different for every house.
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