Amish homeowners: Religion trumps building codes
Jeff Matiatos requested this post.
Please click onto the COMMENTS for the story.
Please click onto the COMMENTS for the story.
posted by Bob at Sunday, December 14, 2008
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37 Comments:
Amish homeowners: Religion trumps building codes
RICHMOND, Associated Press Writer Todd Richmond, Associated Press Writer – Sat Dec 13, 1:25 pm ET AP – Two homes built by Amish farmer Samuel Stoltzfus are seen Nov. 24, 2008, outside Black River Falls, Wis. … TOWN OF FRANKLIN, Wis. – Daniel Borntreger's home looks like hundreds of other Wisconsin farmhouses: two-story A-frame, porch, clothes on the line.
But his home could cost him thousands of dollars in fines. Borntreger, an Amish farmer, built the house himself according to Amish tradition — but without a building permit.
His case is among at least 18 legal actions brought against Amish residents in Wisconsin and New York in the past year and a half for building without proper permits, according to court records, attorneys and advocates for the Amish.
The cases have sparked local debates about where religion ends and government begins. Amish advocates — the Amish religion precludes them from defending themselves physically or legally — argue the Amish belief that they must live apart from the world trumps local regulations.
"The permit itself might not be so bad, but to change your lifestyle to have to get one, that's against our convictions," Borntreger said as he sat in his kitchen with his wife, Ruth.
But local authorities say the Amish must obey the law.
"They just go ahead and don't listen to any of the laws that are affecting anybody else. It's quite a problem when you got people next door required to get permits and the Amish don't have to get them," said Gary Olson, a county supervisor in central Wisconsin's Jackson County, where Borntreger lives.
The Amish emigrated from central Europe to Pennsylvania in the early 1700s. Also known as the "Plain People," the Amish believe they must live a simple, nonviolent life. Many reject electricity, indoor plumbing and cars.
In Pennsylvania, home to a large Amish population, more liberal-leaning congregations have lobbied successfully for exemptions in the state building code, including permission to forego electricity and quality-graded lumber, said Frank Howe, chairman of the board of supervisors in Leacok township in Lancaster County.
Officials try to keep the Amish informed about what they can and can't do, and most conform, Howe said. He didn't believe his board had ever taken an Amish resident to court over building violations.
"You try to work with both sides," Howe said. "(We tell them) this is what we need you to do so everyone can go home and relax."
The Amish population has nearly doubled in the U.S. over the last 15 years, growing to 227,000 this year, according to estimates from Elizabethtown College's Young Center for Anabaptist and Pietist Studies. As the Amish look for new farmland, conservative congregations have migrated into states that haven't seen them before, said Karen Johnson-Weiner, an Amish expert at the State University of New York at Potsdam.
That sets up conflict between building officials with little experience dealing with their beliefs and conservative Amish who aren't familiar with the codes or don't want to compromise, Johnson-Weiner said.
Municipal attorneys in Hammond, a town of about 300 people in upstate New York, cited Joseph Swartzentruber and Henry Mast in August for building houses without a permit. That case is pending. Hammond attorney Fred Paddock declined to comment.
In Morristown, a town of about 450 people just north of Hammond, town attorney Andrew Silver has brought 13 actions against the Amish for not abiding by building codes. They're pending, too.
Silver declined comment except to say the town is treating the Amish as it would any homeowner who violates building codes.
In Wisconsin, authorities in Black River Falls, a city of 3,600 people about 130 miles northwest of Madison, have filed at least four cases against area Amish involving permit violations.
One action ended in April when a judge fined Samuel S. Stoltzfus $9,450 for building a house and driveway without permits. In July the same judge levied a $10,600 fine against Daniel Borntreger. Another pending action accuses Samuel F. Stolzfus of building two houses without permits.
Stoltzfus believed signing a permit would amount to lying because he wouldn't follow parts of the code that violate his religion, said Robert Greene, an attorney with the National Committee for Amish Religious Freedom, which has intervened in his case.
Custom-built homes are allowed in Wisconsin as long as the plans meet code standards, but apparently the Amish don't understand that, said Paul Millis, the attorney suing the Amish in Jackson County. The Town of Albion, where Samuel F. Stolzfus lives, waived a requirement that permits be signed so the Amish could avoid violating their religious beliefs, but they still won't comply, he said.
Attorneys acting on behalf of the Amish argue they have a constitutional right to religious freedom. They don't have to conform to building regulations that require them to use architectural drawings, smoke detectors, quality-graded lumber and inspections, Steve Ballan, an assistant public defender assigned to the Amish in Morristown wrote in court documents.
"They should be allowed to practice their religion and their religious traditions without interference from the government," he said in an interview.
The Becket Fund for Religious Liberty, which has taken up the Amish's cause in Hammond, plans to file a federal lawsuit in New York in the next few weeks arguing that.
The Amish advocates have a strong argument, said University of Michigan law professor Douglas Laycock.
The government must show a strong reason why regulations outweigh religious freedoms, he said. Building officials argue permits and codes ensure structural safety, but Amish homes aren't falling down, he said.
"People aren't getting hurt," he said.
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Ok but whats this have to do with issues discused here? I do not recall anyone here that has had a code issue being Amish, or with strong Amish religion beliefs or Amish ties in their community. Maybe we all should convert to being Amish when the utilities get shut down, is that what this article is suggesting? It appears codes are codes and laws are laws even with the Amish.
Thanks Bob for posting this very interesting article.
Back in the 19th century, there was no building code as we no it today, if at all.
We should all have admiration for the Amish and for their preservation of history and morality.
I can only hope that the Amish prevail all the way to the Supreme Court so we can sock it to St.Paul.
Hard to imagine isin't Chuck, that a community has allowed the Amish to build and live in their home without electricity and coded plumbing .
Amish folks please move to St.Paul and bring your Horses and Buggys.
I can only hope that their horses pass city hall and drop a little something for our beloved city officials.
Jeff Matiatos
Its an observation of their religious practices protected by the First Amendment. Period.
This is a bunch a townies getting mad because they think some other group is getting something they are not. Just like those who bitch about Indian Gaming now.
You know what else the Amish don't do? Use the courts or most public services that taxes pay for.
Whiners everywhere.
Eric
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Please don't post addresses here unless printed in a newspaper or some other public forum.
http://minnesotaindependent.com/19899/colemans-remodeling-project-grew-just-as-texas-firm-paid-his-wifes-firm
Address's all over th internet
Whats your point Eric about the Amish not using the courts and public services ?
Guess you feel your entitled to a rebate or something ?
Typical feel sorry for me responce.
Go blow yourself.
A rebate?
I'm also the one not bitching about people observing their religion. That would be the people who complained the Amish don't have to adhere to code.
Those Yahoos in Wisconsin are just like you and others on here. You think someone else is getting away with something and you cry about it being unfair.
Its not unfair. Their religion forbids them from modern amenities. Since its a legit religion with history and the First Amendment protects them, suck it up.
They have a case- you do not.
Next.
Eric
I can only hope that their horses pass city hall and drop a little something for our beloved city officials.
Jeff Matiatos
Now this would be completely against the law Jeff as I seem to remember that the city passes a law a while back that says that the horse must have a "poop catcher" on his hind end in case it takes a dump on a public street or sidewalk. They had trouble up in the Payne - Pahlen area becasue the cops horses were shitting all over the street and side walks.
Some people do have a case Eric. The Constritution prohibits civil rights violations. In fact it even makes them criminal in nature. While most of do not have a case, the landlords do and those are the poeple that a lot of us here support, so in a way we do have a case....even if it's only a case inpoint, so you suck it up!
Maybe all the landlords should convert to the Amish religon.
When you go camping in the woods in a state park, where does that state expect you to take a shit ?
I am not a camper, but there must be thousands of crapper uprights scattered in the woods.
Watch where you step !
Wow, OK, here is the point. City codes are to protect the PUBLIC safety.
If you violate the city code and build your house to close to my property line and you don't maintain certain fire safety standards and the City allows it because you are a Dahnist (new religion, get it?). And, your house catches fire igniting my house and my house burns down... I am going to sue the City for every F'ing penny they have. Because the City PERMITTED by their lack of action to stop a fire hazard next to my home. The City is just as liable as the Dahnist that built the house while violating the code. And better than that if you burn up in your house, your relatives are going to sue (and win) in a case against the City for allowing you to live in a house that the City knew was unsafe (because it didn't meet the code).
Your religion isn't going to stop the fire from burning my house!
The State/city's power in zoning, building and fire code is to protect the PUBLIC. And, because it has the power to protect it has a legal obligation to do so.
The codes aren't written for fun or sport or to "get" someone. They are written to insure public safety, including the idiot that wants to violate the code, no matter what religion they have.
My nickle is on the state/city winning everyone of these cases that they chose to fight, rather then to accommodate the Dahnists...
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
The Amish will pray that your house won't burn Chuck !
Oh yee of little faith Chuck.
Without electricity and natural gas in the home, what do you think the chances are of a fire ?
I am willing to bet that the risk of fire is more in a modernized home than an Amish built home.
Just don't move next to the Amish.
Jeff Matiatos
Chuck,
If what you say is true, then why isn't everybody else enlightened?
What makes more sense is that sleazy busybody dipshits have taken over, who are arguing for impossible perfectionistic bureaucratic standards so they can embellish their fiefdoms.
A city is a very complicated system, and with the city placing priority on inspections, it destroys many other things that have taken many years to establish and cannot be replaced. Good will included.
Jeff, what has happened in other states is that they have given an exemption to the code in certain areas of the state, where the Amish live.
The same could be done in Wisconsin or Minnesota, if there was a rural area in which they were farming. Accommodation can happen. They want to be far away from the City folk, so I am sure that the legislators in the area where the Amish were living could get a bill through exempting that area from the code.
My point was that they don't have to. Not saying that they shouldn't or at some point won't. Only, that nothing is going to exempt the Amish from the building code other than legislators desiring to accommodate.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Jeff, my other point is what difference does it make if someone is Amish or Dahnist?
Why would we change how we protect the public based on religious freedom? And, why the Amish and not the Dahnists?
The question when we exempt certain people from certain requirements because of their religion is what is the impact on the public?
Sure, the legislature might accommodate a rural section of the state from the building code because the Amish live there, but it isn't going to exempt the West Side of Saint Paul because the Dahnist live there.
The public's safety will trump the free exercise of religion. Because the constitution doesn't just protect your right to have a religion, it protects my right to not be adversely effected by it.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Not true Chuck, the koran is anti American yet we allowed the muslims
in this country to adhere to it.
If our constitution is in fact protecting Americans from the koran, please explain then how and why it's permitted to exist in this day of terrorism.
The courts will decide these Amish housing issues on a religious based theory, and one could argue that states that want to segregate the Amish by delegating that they
build their homes far from the general population to protect public safety is in fact protecting the majority ?
Lets say there is an Amish community in Lake Elmo.
13 miles from the outskirts of St.Paul.
Can the Amish ride their horse and buggys into St. Paul to get whatever ?
This Amish thing is more than just a housing issue.
J.M
Wow...
JM since the Koran was written long before there was an America, how exactly is it Anti-American?
Do you guys actually listen to yourselves?
The Constitution is not going to facilitate one religion over another. There may be law makers that make it easier on the Amish because they like them, but, the "free exercise" clause in the constitution, does not allow you to violate other laws. It just doesn't.
We just saw it at the airport. Muslim cab drivers will not use there vehicles to transport people with alcohol. Fine. But the MAC ruled that if you are the cab at the front of the line and won't pick up a fair because of that religious reason, we aren't allowing someone else in the line to skip in front of the customer and take your cab. The customer is going to get the next cab, and you the cab driver with the religious issue are going to drive to the back of the cab line.
You don't have to pick up someone with booze, but you might wait hours because of it. The customer is not going to be skipped (suffer any consequence) to accommodate your religion.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Cases before the US Supreme Court
Briefs in the context.
unusual case of Summum v. Pleasant Grove City sits awkwardly at the intersection of three First Amendment doctrines: (1) the doctrine establishing the rights of speakers, including religious speakers, in a so-called "public forum"; (2) the doctrine delineating government's ability, as a speaker itself, to control the content of its message; and (3) the doctrine concerning limits that the Establishment Clause places on government favoritism among religious messages.
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dorf/20080407.html
The Quaran is anti-American?
JM, the Holy Quaran preaches peace. You'll find more violence in our Bible. Terrorists who use Islam for justification, have perverted its true meaning just like the Christians who sent children off to the Crusades and condoned the Inquisition.
People have been twisting the meaning of Islam, Christianity and Judaism for centuries.
Eric
Boy, I really mispelled that one, I guess if I am going to speak of the Quaran, I should at least spell it right.
I don't consider myself an unbeliever, but I am not sure about religion period.
To much corruption in religion .
You have a point Eric.
J.M
"Boy, I really mispelled that one, I guess if I am going to speak of the Quaran, I should at least spell it right."
LOL... Actually, you used one of the appropriate translations. Eric's is incorrect. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur'an)
I like how you admit to spelling it wrong when you actually spelled it right, but completely ignored getting called out on your bullshit "the Koran is anti-American" line... beautiful...
I was so taken aback by JM's comments I neglected to comment on the original thread...
One thing I didn't see noted in the original article is whether on not the fines for not getting permits were paid, and what the Amish's thoughts were about that. As has been said, Freedom isn't free. I have the freedom to not abide by the rule of law (for any reason, not just religious), but I must pay for that freedom if I get called out on it. (take speeding as a secular example...)
Jeff M, you said "Without electricity and natural gas in the home, what do you think the chances are of a fire ?"
um, if they're using, say, wood, I'd think their chances are even greater than those using electricity or natural gas.
A tangentially related anecdote: A couple of months ago I was driving in SE MN,(I think it was Wanamingo, but I'm not completely sure...) and stopped at a convenience store for a potty break and a pop refill. As I was in the store, a horse and buggy pulled through the parking lot, and the rear of the buggy had a half dozen 20lb propane tanks that they had stopped to get filled...
Eric, theKoran states that the muslim man can beat his wife, can have several wives, and this book contradicts itself throughout its entirety.
Even Mohammed (who wrote the book) ordered his adoptive son to divorce his wife so he could have her.
A sick perverted book.
Shame on you Eric !
11:45
Can you find the passages in the Qu'ran (thanks Danno)?
Do you even know our bible? Or, are you just a idiot?
The bible has many horrible and unacceptable 'rules' when it come to women. I don't find the Holy Bible evil, only those who use it to commit evil, just like Islam and the Holy Qu'ran is manipulated by evil men.
Here are some Bible passages I beleive you may not agree with becuase they allow you mistreatment of women and 'slaves':
"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything." (Ephesians 5:22-24)
"For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." (I Corinthians 11:8-9)
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Whoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death. He that sacrificeth unto any god, save to the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed." (Exodus 22:18-20)
"Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (I Timothy 2:11-14)
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11)
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21)
The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48)
It doesn't mean the bible is bs, it just means things must be read, understood and carried out in context. When people decide not to, then they are responsible not the religion.
Oh yeah, there is no major religion in the world that preches men and women as equals. Since men established these religions, they sort of put themselves above women.
Eric
Your trying to rationalize your interpretation of the Koran by comparing it to the bible isn't helping you Eric.
It's all fucking bullshit and Jesse ventura was right when he said people use religon as a crutch.
My problem with the bible or any religious matter that so called biblical scolars say was written so many / many years ago, is that it was pieced together with unverified and circumstancial material in largley in dispute.
So go ahead pastor Eric and keep defending what you think is the truth about religon.
I bet you go to church and read the bible.
Good for you but please, don't beat your wife because the Koran and bible permit it.
Looks like some real attacks on religion. Eric can quote chapter and verse of anti-religion extensively.
In the recent past the field of psychology got so anti-religious that the President of the American Psychological Association admitted that all fields of it were antireligious, but the sentiment was groundless.
While a book that old can raise questions for discussion, the real reason the dipshits dislike it is that they do not believe in values.
I notice Chuck spells his own name with a capital letter, but spells 'God' with a small letter. It looks like Chuck thinks he's more important than God.
So it must be true then that if your not religious you can't possibly have any values ?
People don't have to subscribe to anyones religious beliefs to become
a moral citizen.
Or do they ?
What do you say 6:10 ?
Looks like slavery in the bible is ok by God, just don't strike to kill.
And blacks want reparations ?
Give me a break.
Whats a Dahnist, Bill Dahn ?
My experience is that when people have put a lot of effort into atacking religion, it's because there is an agenda.
What? I love when right wingers use the expression, "have an agenda." Isn't it amazing that having a plan, or being in some organized fashion..."have an agenda" is now some code to the right wing to shut your ears, intelligent conversation is coming and we don't want to hear it!
6:10 - as to my religion and your attack on my apparent lack of one, it is a classic example of the christian right trying to demonize any American that tries to make sure that we follow the Constitution and treat all religions fairly.
A few months ago, in my roll as the ED of District 2 I spoke out quite forcefully at a hearing of the Board of Zoning Appeals in support of a Lutheran Church that was trying to lease one of its buildings to a Mormon Church. The City wasn't going to allow it arguing that they would need more parking...
I basically attacked the City Zoning Code concerning parking requirements for churches as being discriminatory and unenforceable.
I argued it as a first amendment issue in favor of the Church against the City's ability to determine what is a "chapel" or seats or pews in a house of worship.
I'm guessing those who didn't know me and heard the debate would have been convinced that I had deep religious beliefs.
No, I am just a proud American.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
... oh, and the City gave the churches their parking variance...
The City Council and inspectors have created hell on earth.
Sorry its not the city its the Judges Bobby you should write a legal brief re: Judicial Hell Holes
When post are submitted for educational purposes, then deleted?
The info is posted elsewhere
http://www.atra.org/reports/hellholes/report.pdf
ATR means America Tort Reform
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