Fresh from Tuesday's narrow victory, St. Paul's IRV faces court challenge over disputed endorsements
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posted by Bob at Friday, November 06, 2009
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By Joe Kimball | Wednesday, Nov. 4, 2009
With a small turnout, St. Paul voters Tuesday narrowly approved Instant Runoff Voting, but today already, there's a scheduled court hearing with opponents contesting how supporters presented their case.
The hotly contested measure passed 17, 083 to 15,486 — about 52.4 percent support — but the margin is closer than it might seem, because the law requires approval of 51 percent of those voting to pass a charter amendment.
The ranked-voting method appeared to work well in its first test Tuesday in Minneapolis, although voters in Pierce County, Washington — the Tacoma area — voted overwhelmingly Tuesday to throw out the system after a one-year experiment there.
Passage of the measure in St. Paul means the City Council must now pass an ordinance incorporating the new voting method into city statutes in time for the next city-wide election in 2011.
Under the plan, there will be no primary election in city-wide races only. Voters can designate one candidate as first choice and then, if they choose, rank others as their second and third choices. If one candidate doesn't win a majority of the votes cast for first choice, the ranking system will kick in.
The new voting system would apply in mayoral and City Council elections but not in school board or Ramsey County Board races.
However, opponents aren't conceding. Chuck Repke, who led an effort to defeat the change in voting methods, says that supporters wrongly claimed endorsement of the measure by the DFL Party, the League of Women Voters and even President Barack Obama, to further confuse voters on an already-confusing topic.
"Those false claims had to be worth at least 800 votes, and if there's an 800-vote swing that gives us the majority," Repke said this morning.
A probable cause hearing on his complaint will be held, via telephone, at 4 p.m. today by an administrative law judge.
Supporters of ranked voting — which appeared to work smoothly in Minneapolis in its first local test Tuesday — celebrated the win.
"We feel fabulous," said Ellen Brown, coordinator of the Better Ballot Campaign that pushed hard for the change. "It was fairly close, which we think isn't surprising when you have had as much discussion on this as we had."
Supporters wanted the change because it will eliminate costly and low-turnout primary elections. They also believe it will give voters more choice on the ballot and cut down on negative campaigning.
But Repke and opponents of the measure say it is too confusing and will disenfranchise a lot of voters who don't understand the system.
"Surveys in other cities show that at least 15 percent of the voters will be totally confused by what they're doing. Even in San Francisco, after using this six times, they found that only 87 percent knew what they were doing," Repke said.
"And if you break it down by race, income and education, they found a much higher percentage of what I call 'less sophisticated' voters didn't understand what they were doing," he said.
On Tuesday, one St. Paul voter interviewed by the Pioneer Press clearly didn't understand the one-sentence ballot question that occupied 16 lines on the ballot.
"I didn't know what it was. It was something about how we vote. I said yes. I hope that was the best choice," she told the paper.
Brown, though, says that opponents are underestimating St. Paul voters.
"The data has shown that people understand it well, and Minneapolis demonstrated that voters will get it, with the right kind of voter education," she said. "I think it's insulting to voters to argue that they're not smart enough."
And while supports believe the new system will lessen negative campaigning, Repke says the opposite will prove true.
Repke, a longtime activist known as a wily DFL strategist, says ranked voting will lead to even more negative campaigns, as candidates demonize a particular candidate and urge voters to vote for anyone else.
"If you like Smith but dislike Jones, you've got an incentive to make voters really hate Jones. You tell people we've really got to stop Jones, because he's evil. You tell people to vote for whomever you want as first choice, but then vote for everyone but Jones on the other rankings. This way, you'll reap the benefits of all the Jones haters," he said.
And acknowledged Repke, who has run many political campaigns: "I'll be the worst at it. I'm begging people, 'Don't make me run negative campaigns.' "
On the legal challenge, Repke called the supporters' claims to have the endorsement of the DFL Party, the League of Women Voters and even President Obama the most flagrant violation of campaign laws that he's seen in 30 years. According to Repke, the president had supported legislation years ago in Illinois on some form of ranked voting but never weighed in on this particular ballot measure. Neither did the DFL Party or the League issue endorsements on the specific St. Paul ballot question, he said.
Said Brown:
"Maybe [we] weren't as careful as might have been [in claiming the endorsements]. The reason it never occurred to us, is the people working on this campaign are used to campaigning for specific people, rather than ideas. And when you're supporting a person, that implies endorsement, but you can support a principle, like ranked voting, without maybe taking a position on specific initiatives."
Joe Kimball writes about politics, St. Paul and other subjects. He can be reached at jkimball [at] minnpost [dot] com.
Never thought I'd say this, ever, but - Go Chuck.
IRV is a dumb idea. Ask the people who've tried it; Tacoma, Washington ditched it on Tuesday by a 2-1 margin. Tacoma was, natch, one of the cities that IRV proponents have been pimping as an example of how *successful* IRV has been. And even people in San Francisco are complaining.
Of all the ways Saint Paul could "keep up with the Joneses", this was one of the dumber ones.
Boo - Ho ?
It's Christopher Coleman again.
St. Paul's IRV faces court challenge over disputed endorsements"
We voted for IRV and the opponents are contesting.
So if you Democrats don't like the outcome of any case or person voted in like the 2008 National Election, Al Franken, Obama and ACORN.
These elections are getting more crooked every year.
Then President Obama's stimulus package? ACRON WAS "PAID OFF"!
So, on Friday the judge determined there was probable cause to move to an evidentiary hearing on November 18, 2009.
The point is they stole the election. They knew they were losing so they claimed the endorsement of the LWV, the DFL and President Obama on their lit. to sway voters to support it.
They did two mailings with those false claims that hit voters on the Thursday and Saturday before the election.
Whatever we have disagreed on one thing that we should agree on is that people should not win elections by breaking the law. And, the facts are the facts. They were not endorsed by the LWV, the DFL and they did not have the signatures of Obaama and McCain and Nader as required by law before using their names.
At this point it isn't about IRV at all its about do they get to lie to win an election and will someone hold them accountable?
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
someone tell Bill Dahn that IRV, as pushed by the Better Ballot Campaign was a bunch of lefties to the Left of Chuck Repke and Dave Thune.
It was the DFLers who pushed this on you. Its also some DFLers who are against this.
Chuck Repke is right that they broke campaign finance laws but, they are right that at different times in the past, Obama and Frnaken supported IRV. Just not St paul's better ballot campaign. ACORN refused to endorse it.
stop drinking Bill.
Repke Get over it. The Voters have spoken,http://minnesotaindependent.com/48518/no-bad-ballots-committee-files-campaign-grievance/comment-page-1#comment-42888
Repke did NOT do his Homework, look at all the DFL's and Rep. on the Video, Public Infohttp://stpaul.betterballotcampaign.org/
REpke if the Administrate Court uses Video's and Cable 18 www.spnn.org your comments must be used in Court for Evience, Be Careful what you wish for Who is the Liars in this Election
1:07 no really we had DFL'ers in support of vote No also. The issue is using the phrase DFL endorsed and they were not endorsed and using President Obama's name without his advance approval and they did not have that and using the LWV without their approval.
There are laws against this crap and an I don't care if their are a bunch of good DFL'ers in support of it... nobody should be able to break the law and be awarded with an election victory for it.
There are a few rules in life that need to be followed and we should all at least attempt to follow those around campaigning and lying to the public.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Public Policy mandate
s We can Read Repke http://www.oah.state.mn.us/faircampaign/faircampaign.html
You should check lawyer Benenauv law partner This one you will lose
Check with your lawyer girlfriend.
There is no faircampaigns, look at Al Franken.
Chuck, this is above the heads of the kind of people that read here. Go back to SPIF and let these losers be alone with themselves.
Every time the dfl party lose a election or now lose in the voting to have IRV in St.Paul their is a cry baby wanting something different.
Why some dfl'er were all for IRV and now Chick Repke and his friends are jet getting their face seen and then hear the bull coming from his mouth.
Can't any of the dfl side together on anything.
8:15 - that is the point there was no DFL endorsement, no endorsement from the LWV and Obama and McCain never gave permission to use their names.
If these people get away with this, then please, Bill, Sharon you both should feel free to claim those same endorsements in the future as yours since these people didn't have the rights to those names either.
JMONTMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
"There are a few rules in life that need to be followed and we should all at least attempt to follow those around campaigning and lying to the public."
Huh??!?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHA(you stinking, dirtbag Democrats slay me,Repke!)HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAaaa
HAHAHAahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!
you blow your boyfriend with that mouth bunny boy?
Tell it like it is Swiftee.
The city, county, state all covers up for each other, we seen in the "98" election how DFL Susan Gaertner's lover John Wodele got a good job on Jesse's staff.
John Wodele was a friend of Dean Barkley's and Susan help the case that she had no right holding, the Jesse and Dean Barkley "bribery case" for 6 mo. before sending it to Anoka.
But that is only a few people out of the thousands of scheming people in government jobs.
Billy D.
Bill is pissing off people by bringing out Susan Gaertner.
She won't run, Dayton has a chance in the party.
"
Whatever we have disagreed on one thing that we should agree on is that people should not win elections by breaking the law."
So what are you saying Chuck ???? That htey wait till after they get put into office before they break the law?
Former Trucker from St. Paul who had his business "taken " Fighting Government you better know what your doing. Great Case Law with thousands of persons fighting corruption, Taxes and Elections
http://www.greenes.us/
At least Chuck Repke knows how to write a Complaint, others do not
Chuck is pointing out blatant campaign violations which he caught and reported before the election though, the public was not aware and some may have made a choice to move IRV based on others the trust and know were said to support it.
I expect at the very least a fine, at the most the nullifying of the ballot. Its really not about whether you support IRV or not, its about campaign practices.
I, and other DFLers were for IRV. Chuck and other DFLers are against it. Some parties that can't win in the current system (Green, Independent) are for it because it gives their candidate a guaranteed spot on the ballot in the general and others (Republicans) who have a very hard time finding enough supporters in bigger cities.
It really isn't a Democrat vs Republican issue.
Bill Dahn is no threat to nothing or no one anywhere. I don't lift a finger or know anyone in the DFL who cares to because when he opens his mouth- he does enough damage. He also did enough damage to his own reputation from 1999-2002 when he pissed on everyone who tried to help him. On this board, Chuck and I both tried to help him.
I was not a social service person or anything (I was a DFL employee focused on campaigns) but, he needed help and I could at least make some calls for him, make some copies and set some appointments. After begging people who could offer legal help, health services and living assistance, Bill blew those appointments off and burned bridges with other people including myself and our staff at the DFL. He often became hostile with people (mostly women) when trying to get people to focus on going after Jesse Ventura instead of seeking help for himself.
He never went to the Republicans or a Republican for help. Never. He bitches and complains about DFLers but, it was DFLers who tried to help him until it was time for restraining orders. You cannot help someone, who refuses to be helped.
That's the story. And, since only Chuck and I at different times have tried to help Bill, we've earned the unique perspective to say Bill Dahn is not worth the effort to to try and shut him down. He's not credible.
Swiftee, you're still a jerk. Carry on.
Eric
Eric Bill Dahn is oldnews the Governors Unallotment is prevelant
http://minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2009/10/documents/Brayton-complaint.pdf
It should be interesting politics if the DFL AG is representing Rep.Pawlenty
This Thread is about the Voters,Elections,IRV
Hey everyone...have you heard the BIG NEWS??!?
As you know, the citizens of St. Paul have been dying in the streets, children are starving and the sky is falling because teh mean T-Paw (boooo) cut the slush fund..er, I mean critical state aid to local government.
Well brave Chris Coleman (yaaay!) immediately flew to the rescue; but he's had a rough go. He created a new Human Rights Department (way better than the state and county HR outfits around the corner) and tapped one of his most loyal lackeys, um, I mean able assistants to head it up, but due to the meanness of evil T-Paw (hissss) the starvation and death continued unabated.
Next, he covered the seats on the Como trolleys in teh kewl leopard skin....but sadly, Gramma is still laying dead on Striker ave. awaiting pickup.
So he built a spiffy new fire station on 7th St., just eight blocks from the old, busted one to save money on moving expenses...T-Paw (haaawk, ptoohey) didn't notice at all and teh children were still weak from hunger.
But do not fret your pointy little heads, moonbats. Brave Coleman hasn't begun to fight!
I just received a coded message from Disaster Central Control that I am authorized to pass along to you kooks.
Brave Chris Coleman announced today that the indoor farmers market WILL BE BUILT damnit!
That's right. Now you can pick up your farm fresh snowballs in the coldest days of January in shirtsleeves!
But there's more!
The brain trust at city hall is going to provide new apartments on top of the new market....can you believe it??!?
That's right, kool-aid garglers.
Teh brave Coleman is going to stimulate the economy by adding to the glut of empty space downtown...um, I mean by putting some hard working union members to work building more sustainable living environments for you gerbils...oops, I mean citizens.
So fear not! Teh Children will get fed and Gramma's corpse is sure to get picked up sometime soon...keep your chins up...the brave Coleman knows what's good for you better than you do!
Well Swiftee, you're not only a jerk but, light on brains, no wonder you prefer fighting.
Listen shit-for-brains you are comparing different types of funds as one. Bonding dollars are usually for longterm bricks and mortar projects and cannot go toward salaries or some type of social service. Etc, etc,.
Your rant exposes you. However, you are on the right site. You come to the lowest common denominator to make sure you can only be challenged by those who stand in opposition of you anyway. What a brave, brave soul.
pfft!
Eric
Eric, Are you jealous of Swiftee's Saterical(sp) Form of writings
Instead of knocking each other, put your brain drain to implement http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_A1Sec6.htmlmust
For the Public Good
Get with it you guys elections are never over Do your homework
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/state/s_652982.html
NG alleged Election Fraud What goes around Comes Around Sue and be Sued?http://www.oah.state.mn.us/aljBase/032520952.primafacie.htm
Enough Homework for the Weekend
Typical barking moonbat. Nothing intelligent to say, but saying it anyway.
There is only one flavor of government funding, dolt...where ever it ends up, every dollar teh brave Coleman spends comes from the taxpayers pocket.
Stinking Democrats are the masters of slight of hand. To watch a buck float out of your pocket and completely disappear into the cryptoclastic miasma of leftist machinations is a wonder of nature.
And there's always some babbling fool ready with some asinine bit of amphigory to keep the sheep quiet.
Don't fret little teh Eric.
Even as I type this, teh brave, wise, Coleman is working on a new project, and sooner or later enough crumbs will fall off his plate that Gramma will get scooped up off the street and teh poor starving childern will get some gruel.
In the mean time, remember, you're Happy To Pay!
Pfffft!!!!
Eric
Use your words, little man...
yep yep IRV real works
Who pays in the end after Repke brings suit.
Chuck You and your party are still dictators in St.Paul and its government, this can be turned around like the Coleman, Franken race.
Swiftee,
I see that Eric at 1:02 PM -- and his persuading way in bending the truth about anything that really happen.
I met Eric in 2002 and I had already lost my home on 9-11-2009 after battling the city, RAP, NSP, U S DOE, and the Democrats that said there was nothing wrong with the insulation and the furnace pulling in sewer gases.
Eric blew off the real thing about six years of abuse by RAP and their people, I did get many other people there at RAP fired like Dale Anderson and the other guy who was busted for smuggling high grade marijuana from a Wisconsin pig framer.
Jim Scheibel ran RAP in 1970's when they were installing the spay in foam insulation that had to be removed by the home owners due to high formaldehyde levels.
REMEMBER PEOPLE -- Jesse and Dean Barkley was at my home on July 19,1998 and the became ill within 20 minutes.
They tried to help until the Republican and the Democrats bought suit on them for bribery, Dean did get two bids on my home 1. $ 71,000 2. $80300 to re-due my home.
Ask Eric why I had to run for governor to get my voice heard about the insulation.
By now everyone in Minnesota has seen the video taken at my home by Dean Barkley on July 19, 1998
that is on my web site. www.billdahn.com
Bill Dahn
Type err, remember "To err is human" !
I met Eric in 2002 and I had already lost my home on 9-11-2009.
Sorry
Type err, it was 9-11-2001 the day that will go down in history.
Just ask Jesse Ventura, his new show will talk about 9-11 "Conspiracy Theories" witch Jesse knows how first hand.
Bill Dahn
Your rant exposes you. However, you are on the right site. You come to the lowest common denominator to make sure you can only be challenged by those who stand in opposition of you anyway. What a brave, brave soul.
pfft!
Eric
My response;
I have taken a bit of a vacation from the town hall. I am back now!
Eric, you never miss an opportunity to knock this town hall.
Fact is, a vote for Coleman in the last election is the lowest common denominator. Eric, you and the rest of the dfl hacks count on low numbers of voters and these "Rose Nylon"(ignorant voters)types to maintain power.
IF, I had registered this blog as a PAC you and your ilk would of had your hands full. I still may do that for the up coming city council elections.
Later I will post a topic with my opinion concerning the mayoral race.
http://www.givemeliberty.org/CC2009/
Live Video Today,Tomorrow MN has a great Group We the People, not the Lawyers,Legislators, or Liars
Eric, you never miss an opportunity to knock this town hall.
Wrong Bob. You guys throw out quite a few opportunities that I ignore.
There are weeks that I don't come here. You know those times, that's usually when the blog is dormant.
By the way, on election day, E-Democracy had over 60,000 emails. You don't have one-tenth of that in total from the beginning Bob.
Bill,
Everything I said was the truth. You prove it by saying "Eric blew off the real thing about six years of abuse by RAP and their people..."
There was no abuse. You wanted some free insulation, got some bad stuff and here we are.
I didn't care about that stuff you conjured up because I had this guy standing in front me (you) who needed three things:
health services
some kind of stable shelter
and legal representation
Unfortunately that guy standing in front of me, was angry wanted revenge against the sitting governor (who was on his way out)and felt that by threatening people and talking about exposing closet gays (which none were) he could get some kind of satisfaction.
Keep writing here Bill and keep running for office. You're making a big difference.
Oh, and tell the good readers how much help you received the Republicans. Did you go to the Republicans for anything? Did any of their staffers offer you help? No? I wonder why?
Eric
"By the way, on election day, E-Democracy had over 60,000 emails."
WTF??
If you add up all the posts from all the various moonbat echo chambers E-Dimwit hosts, you wouldn't get 60K in a year.
Are you drunk, Eric, or are you suffering delusions from the fumes of the fever swamp?
From: Steven Clift clift@e-democracy.org
To: mpls@forums.e-democracy.org
Sent: Wed, November 4, 2009 8:11:22 AM
Subject: [Mpls] We delivered 60,000 messages yesterday
With almost 1200 members and most of you preferring e-mail delivery,
E-Democracy.org forums delivered some 60,000 messages over the last 24
hours across our network. This was driven in large part by 187
different posts from 93 different authors in 5 days on the Minneapolis
Issues Forum. Not bad.
While we provide the server, it is your participation that makes this
a vital community service worth supporting now and into the future.
Steven Clift - http://stevenclift.com
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Steven Clift
Ericsson, Minneapolis
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View all messages on this topic at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2PSz4pDDvLpUF4LUOncYrb
-----------------------------------------
Eric
Is there something wrong with you?
Mentally?
Eric
Wow Swiftee! I haven't laughed like this in ages.
Wipe your chin, dolt.
You look real pathetic standing there with your moonbat pelt ripped off and drool running out of your barker.
"They have 60,000 e-mails!" Ohhh, BwaaHahahahaaaaa!
Yeah, and that makes your witless buffoonery suddenly seem so sensible, doesn't it Dolt?
Eric 10:22 PM said about Swiftee
Is there something wrong with you?
Mentally?
Hey
Eric every time someone bad mouth you or your party you come back and call us mental.
Why is the kettle always calling other back, meaning are You the mentally deranged person here and feel alone.
Eric
We proved that the condition of Bill Dahn's home had two major health at 256 W. Morton St in St.Paul,MN. high levels of formaldehyde in the insulation, and sewer gases flowing though the furnace from RAP's people shitty work while installing the furnace.
What's up Eric, we notice each time I tell the truth about some one on the DFL Political Party, the only way you can try to discredit me id by say that I'm mental of some slandering comment, you just might be slandering a disable person and from 1995 till 9-11-2001.
No one did anything about the condition of my home, that was very strange that the animal protection call and was going to remove my two Siamese cats from the home because of the sewer gas and the formaldehyde.
The Democrats made it so I had no where to go or no one helped.
Eric never helped me because I was running on the Republican Party, he is with d-f-l-ers and he is good at scandalizing any and all candidates that run against your party.
Bill Dahn
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