St. Paul seeks to bar two street gangs from Rondo Festival
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posted by Bob at Sunday, July 05, 2009
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30 Comments:
By Maricella Miranda
mmiranda@pioneerpress.com
Updated: 07/01/2009 05:09:11 PM CDT
The city of St. Paul has asked for temporary injunctions to keep members of two gangs — the East Side Boys and the Selby Siders — from hanging out with each other in the Rondo neighborhood during the area's annual Rondo Days Festival and Parade this month.
It's the city's second bid to use a 2007 Minnesota law that lets cities ask a judge to declare a gang a public nuisance in order to restrict where gang members go with each other and what they do.
The first came this year when the city obtained a temporary injunction to keep Sureno 13 gang members from the Cinco de Mayo festival. Ramsey County District Judge Gregg Johnson granted the injunction, barring 10 alleged Sureno 13 members from engaging in several activities inside a "safety zone" on the city's West Side for a specific time between May 1 and May 3. Those activities included: no association with known gang members, no intimidation, no use of gang signs, and no gang clothing.
The city now seeks a similar injunction against the nine alleged East Side Boys and nine alleged Selby Siders from 9 a.m. July 18 to 6 a.m. July 19 for a specified "safety zone" in the Rondo neighborhood.
The injunction requests were assigned to Judge Michael Monahan.
The Rondo Days Festival and Parade, to be held July 18 this year, draws thousands who gather to remember the old Rondo Avenue neighborhood, which was demolished in the 1960s to make way for Interstate 94.
Maricella Miranda can be reached at 651-228-5421.
Right out of the communist party playbook.
Divivde and Conquer, that's the name of the game in St. Paul. Then send out the DFL speaking robots and hate mongers to fester the hate.
Maybe the citizens should get a restraining order keeping any task forces out of their neighborhoods.
I thought we went over this?
This is a private function. Permits, fees and security are paid for from private donations. So dress codes can be enforced as well as participation.
The 18 'gang' members are self ID'd. At a time of their previous arrest or run in with the law, they admitted to being part of specific gangs. They are quite proud of their affiliation.
They can go to the event, they just can't hang out together or wear their colors during the event.
The only question I would have is, what is the proof of their gang affiliation? If its solid, let the system work.
Most of you complaining, support this at your neighborhood bar but, since you don't go to Rondo or Cinco De Mayo, its not your problem so its an outrage.
You'll use anything to complain against the city and refuse to do anything to make changes.
Eric
Rondo neighborhood a private event! Since when Eric did it become private ?
According to sources, Rondo days appears to be an African American sponsored event. However,that doesn't make it private.
Isn't the definition of private one that defines the privacy and seclusion of ones personal space ?
This event is so public that to call it private is a lie.
Anyways, an injunction is not warranted here.
If your saying that these gangs can attend but not wear certain clothing or get together for peaceful purposes, to me without proof that these purported gangs "will" cause problems doesn't justify the granting of a public nuisance injunction under the legal standard. Why not kick them out of the city ?
How does the city intend to serve these gangs with notice of injunction and hearing on the injunction ?
As I said before, most of these Ramsey District Judges are in the pockets of the city and the city will get it's injunction because the city will just lie in it's affidavits.
I am going to research the courts issuance of both the gangs injunctions for Cinco Demayo and Rondo days to see if the city and judges followed case law for issuance of the injunctions.
I disagree with the hypocricy of allowing the gangs to attend but restricting their right to wear clothing of their choice.
If I was a judge, I would want proof of some imminent harm to the event not just some suspicion.
It's not private Eric.
Jeff Matiatos
Jeff, its a private event because its not publicly funded. Its funded by donations and sponsors. The must take out a permit which includes directives on security and insurance.
Your definition of privacy is one definition, another is that when you rent that space- it becomes yours for the time you rent it. Its why the Republicans were legally able to throw Democrats out of there convention, held in a public building.
You're guessing here and I'm speaking as a person who has sat on committees to raise funds and personally applied for permits. The Rondo Committee is responsible and accountable for Rondo Days, not the city.
Its not illegal to be in a gang. It is illegal to take part in illegal activities directly or indirectly with knowledge. The past record, associations, and admissions of these 18 individuals opened the way for a court order that they not be within so many feet of each other.
If your wife file a restraining order against her because you threatened her, or she is frightened that you will harm her- its granted. All she has to show is that in a certain situation you are a threat to her. All they have to show is that when gang members congregate and flash gang signs, its a nuisance, especially if there are other members in the vicinity. Its actually a public safety issue as innocent bystanders are often the ones hurt.
Again, these self-admitted gangbangers can attend, they have a good time, they just can't congregate with each other.
Since there are more than nine members in each of these gangs, I'm willing to bet they'll find others in their sect to hang with.
It's a private event, open to the public.
Eric
If it's open to the public it's not private. What's a matter with you ? Ya got crap for brains or what?
I'm with you Eric... I don't get how people don't get that when you pay money to the City to rent a park or a street for the day, it becomes a private event.
That is the point of parade permits and park permits...
And 12:00 what happens is the public is invited to a private event. Just like at the Taste of Minnesota or the State Fair... everyone is invited, but the sponsors make the rules and they can refuse admittance to those who don't follow the rules.
The KKK can get parade permits and invite the public to participate and then determine that Eric and I can't participate because they don't trust us to sing their praises.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Good point Chuck.
And, the KKK did apply and get a permit for their demonstration on the Capitol stairs in August of 2001. I got a permit for the DFL in the park area right in front of the capitol.
The state troopers were lined up in front of the capitol to prevent anyone, not approved by the Klan, access to the stairs or the Capitol. The Capitol is about as public as you can get, yet, because they had a legal permit, that area was off-limits to anyone not approved by them.
Private group and event, with the public invited, kind of.
Hey 12:00,
I've got brain that I use for more than insulation to separate the ears. Ya can't say the same. Comprehension and deductive thinking is not your strong points I see.
The Capitol, its a public building full of public servants, yet, they were able to obtain a restraining order against Nancy Lazaryan.
Rondo is privately funded event that is open to the public. The rules are made by a committee and not the city. If they weren't behind this, or supporting this, it wouldn't be.
Eric
Why is the city representing in court, orginazations that take out permits for private events ?
When the city does this,the tax payors are paying for legal representation for the private sector.
Does the permit say that the city will represent them in court ?
Maybe rich corporations are getting this legal representation to.
So now, if someone gets hurt under a private permit usage for an event, now the city can be sued because it issued the permits ?
Does immunity the city normally would enjoy extend to the private entity that took out the permits ?
Your wrong about the klan being able to exclude anyone it wanted.
As a matter of fact, the Klan that came to St.Paul back then, had more opposition to their presence than support.
Thats what the Klan wanted and they got it. ATTENTION !!!!!!!
When people protest the Government, the people expect the opposition to come out and face them in numbers.
Most of the time, Government officials won't come out to meet the people.
They wait until election time so they can address only the issues they want. Usually that consists of bashing their opponent on issues and scandles that have nothing to do with the needs and will of the people.
Anything to get elected. The democrats really like to operate like this.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Notice of intent to delete.
Eric could you give us some more details about the RO against Nancy. This is the first I have heard about it. Do you know about it Bob? Why didn't you post it?
chstritsThe relevant Minnesota Statute is 617.81.
Here it is. The statute defines a gang nusiance as :
: A crimminal gang that
continuously or regularly engages in gang activity : 617.92.
For these gangs to win in court, they would require that the prosecuting attorney show that the gang has had 3 or more convictions of regular or continuous lawfully recognized forms of illegal gang activities in a 12 month period.
There must be convictions !!
The problem I see is that the law defines continuous or regular as :
" 3 seperate incidents within a 12 month period "
" A twelve month period " as opposed to " within the previous 12months " means the gang will always be subjected to an injunction for a public nusiance even if the gang has been law abiding in the last 12 months.
This means that the law will get an order every year against these gangs simply because there had been 3 or more convictions in "a" 12 month period.
To me, it's the equivilent of having done your time and being convicted year after year simply for having a history of convictions.
Just my thoughts on it.
Jeff Matiatos
Looks like you found the loophole Jeff.
They get a temporary injunction that will seek to protect the public from youth wearing clothing not not suitable in the eyes of those in government who wear suits.
What about after the event ?
Then the gangs go on about their dirty deeds until the cops get 3 or more convictions and it starts all over, right ? It's a game they play with the public to give this false perception that the law works.
Bottom line is that the government can never do enough to stop crime.
Real crime fighters eh !
Lewis
This means that the law will get an order every year against these gangs simply because there had been 3 or more convictions in "a" 12 month period.
To me, it's the equivilent of having done your time and being convicted year after year simply for having a history of convictions.
---
Jeff,
I guess I got two thoughts on this but, allow me to use some examples and see if we can see eye to eye on this.
A person convicted of a felony, depending the the type, will carry that around for the rest of their life. Every time they apply for a job, school, license, loan and lease it will come up and that person will yet again pay for it.
I don't think its fair and its a bit invasive but, thats the world we live in and that's the private sector re-convicting them over and over.
In this case, the government is saying that:
1. If you are a self admitted (and ranking in these 18 cases) active gang-member and;
2. have had three or more convictions, not accusations but convictions, in the last year, you'll be labeled a public nuisance.
So, if you only get convicted twice- then you're in the clear and can congregate with fellow gang bangers or wannabees.
What's wrong with this?
I'll take the insult free explanation.
----
Bottom line is that the government can never do enough to stop crime.
Real crime fighters eh !
Lewis
Lewis,
Are you saying no matter what the government does, its not enough?
This action is called crime prevention and is a tactic of crime fighting. You have an event where the same fools mess it up or everyone, so you use the law to keep these idiots from hanging with each other- while at this event.
I don't get it. Recently convicted gang-members are ordered that they can't hang out with other recently convicted gang members at an event where gang activity has been known to break it up- and you all have a problem with that?
If they were living on your block, you'd be jumping up and down for the cops and city to do something about it.
Eric
Back in the Fall of 2004 when I was working for the Kerry Campaign, we were having an event in Erie PA.
I was told by Secret Service that the the Mayor of Erie was under FBI investigation and was not to be at the event (in his own city).
Mayor Rick Fillipi was a tough talking 38 year old Italian mover and shaker. He was not pleased and I actually thought that this guy is unstable. He went on about civil liberties, his town, not convicted of anything and who was I to tell him anything. The usual crap. It took several conversations before I just laid out the politics to him.
Before you say it, Secret Service is not political. They only focus on security issues. Because of an investigation, not conviction, he was banned.
By the way, he was indicted and has been in and out of court on several corruption charges since then. He was not voted back in office a couple of years later.
This banning certain people from public events is not new or unique.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-12-08-mayor-charged_x.htm
Eric
"I don't think its fair and its a bit invasive but, thats the world we live in and that's the private sector re-convicting them over and over."
No it's not the private sector Eric. It's your DFL mobsters who don't like any competition when it comes to being a crook so they pass laws that require the private sector to not spit on a felon if he were on fire because if they do and something happens, the guy in the private sector will get sued and lose everything he has. No 2nd chances around St. Paul......too risky.
Hey 10:18, nobody cares what you think.
I'm trying to debate the issue. If you want to get into politics with me, you're going to lose and be mad.
Stick to the subject where you have a fighting chance.
Eric
Well you don't know much about prison life do you Eric.
In prison, thats what they do, you become part of a gang of sorts. Mexicans hang with mexicans. Blacks hang with blacks, and so on. It's tolerated in prison why ?
Survival.
Why doesn't the prison system do something about this ?
Not that we care about this because were on the outside but it's accepted that prisoners will join gangs on the inside.
Government can never do enough to stop crime is a true fact of society. I agree with Lewis.
I seems to me this nuisance law, while a tool the government uses to curb gang activity as they say, borders on being unconstitutional.
Declaring that the gangs very presence at an event justifies being restrained judicially because of 3 convictions in a 12 month period isn't giving the gang very much incentive to be law abiding.
I am sure they resent this.
Probation is what it is called after any conviction.
Chuck, don't you think that probation should be the preffered remedy here instead of an injunction ?
I see the action as to oppressive.
Unconstitutional too.
Jeff Matiatos
Well you don't know much about prison life do you Eric.
I'll plead ignorance to that but, I am familiar with they gang mentality for survival in prison. Its not secret. I'm also familiar with life on the streets and how being in a gang can be a familial structure. Its still not illegal to belong to a gang.
It is illegal to commit crimes. 3 convictions in one year seems like a lot to me. You can be forgiven instantly for a mistake that lands you in trouble, maybe two- but three in one year. I'd say you need a lifestyle change or prepare for prison. That lifestyle change may be finding a new group to hang out with. Or, a different part of the same group where the guys do not have 3 convictions yet.
Starting the day after Rondo, they get a fresh start to stay under 3 convictions in a year.
I seems to me this nuisance law, while a tool the government uses to curb gang activity as they say, borders on being unconstitutional.
I agree that its teetering on some serious constitutional liberties. But, it has been upheld in court for years as the FBI went after the East Coast and Chicago-Milwaukee mobs. A lot of times when they couldn't pin anything heavy on their target, they made sure he didn't consort with other known members of La Cosa Nostra.
When you are on probation, aren't you told that you cannot consort or 'hang' with other felons?
Government can never do enough to stop crime is a true fact of society. I agree with Lewis.
Again, what are you saying? Is that a complaint or an observation and acceptance?
We seemed to have done it in Baghdad. Where there is a will, there is certainly a way. You won't stop all crime but, this blatant violence as a show of bravado can be curbed.
Eric
Our government lied to us about going into Iraq plain and simple, and thousands of innocent Iraqies and military were killed.
I think we need to address the issue of how and why gangs get started in the first place.
As far as agreeing with Lewis, what you ask Eric is all of the above.
A fair argument can be made that these convicted gang members have done their time and are on probation, therefore the conduct has been controlled and monitoring is part of that probation.
Now were saying that they can't get together for a social event that is part private and part public ?
You know that youth gangs are not all about commiting crimes.
Some of them come from socially and economically strapped circumstances with little parental guidance.
I admit that I don't know every detail about these specific alleged gangs, but their constitutional rights must be respected.
Our U.S. Government has been the biggest hypocrites when it comes to promoting Civil Rights and Human Rights.
For the very same reason thousands and thousands of Human Rights and Civil Rights cases and complaints are filed every day should tell you that the term Hypocrites used here is an understatement.
As I have said here before many times, St.Paul does segregate and divides the city up into racial and ethnic sub sections communities.
It's their way of controlling it's citizens.
Jeff Matiatos
I thing the nuisance injunctions can only be enforced when the alleged gang members are inside the permiter of the event itself.
Otherwise, the injunction would be the equivlent of requiring that the gang members agree to be in jail for the event on a voluntary basis. Not going to happen.
Jeff Matiatos
The article says the city wants to simply " keep the gangs from hanging out ".
If this is really all their trying to do, I see no harm in just hanging out.
Doeasn't the city have to show that the gangs are going to attend in the first place ?
"Stick to the subject where you have a fighting chance"
Fighting chance? Give me a frickin break man! These politicians are nothing but street thugs slicked up with some polish and after shave. Everyone knows it too so I already win before you even start. That goes for Republicans too, not just your DFL mobsters.
The article says the city wants to simply " keep the gangs from hanging out ".
If this is really all their trying to do, I see no harm in just hanging out.
Doeasn't the city have to show that the gangs are going to attend in the first place ?
----
If you have a restraining order against you, all the other person has to show is that you're a potential (not actual) danger to them. In this case, I assume the previous gang activity over the the past years at this event was enough to get the order.
Again, these guys can go and hang out, they just cannot hang out with the eight(only eight) other gang members who have 3 or more convictions in the last year.
That still leaves plenty of gang members with 2 or 1 or zero convictions in the last year that they can hang out with.
---
I have to wonder if this was a duplex would so many be siding with individuals. If the city said they were going to shut down the Rondo Days celebration because of the violence (or shut down a duplex because of the violence associated with it) you all would be screaming about blaming the event (building) for actions of some people (tenants). Arrest the violators (tenants and friends), leave the event (property) alone.
Eric
Maybe the people doing the bad acts should be in jail or under some supervision and the problem would be solved.
I miss Nancy O.
Can you get her back Bob?
8:28, Nancy hasn't gone anywhere. She is lurking often. She wished us all a happy Independence Day!
I don't believe Nancy is the type of gal who forgets who her friends are. Nancy doesn't have to worry about facing bullies alone anymore. She has us to help defend her. And we all know how nasty some of us can get and still be law abiding.
Property rights advocates have shown we can make a statement with dignity and push back when we've been pushed.
I often ponder the dynamics of this list. The regulars who post here are rare strong minded individuals. That being said, I know the readers who lurk numbers in the thousands. It is the strong minded, and no doubt courageous personalities of this town hall driving the interest in the discussions here. I kind of see the blog as the Saturday night fights 24/7. In all honesty, I wish some of my egghead friends from SPIF would feel comfortable enough to post here. But that would be like Pee Wee Herman drinking in a blue collar country bar that has a mechanical bull and a cage around the band. It wasn't my intention for the town hall to evolve like this however, here it is and we aren't going away. (Note, I see E Democracy stole my idea of making community forums for the district councils.) It isn't nice to steal from hillbillies! :)
Nancy has caught hell defending her principles here and done a fine job doing so. I'm happy she has taken a break from the hell fire.
Fact is all of us who post here regular are either crazy, patriotic as hell, angry at someone or something, have a stake in something, or believe in justice so much we can not turn our backs on all that has come out here.
I pray that only good comes from all we discuss here. I would be in a world of sorrow if someone from this list violated the law and hurt someone. That isn't what we are about. We are about justice and upholding the principles of law!
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