RNC welcoming committee
Please click onto the TITLE for the story.
posted by Bob at Thursday, March 27, 2008
Custom Search
Thursday, March 27, 2008
A DEMOCRACY TOWN HALL HOME
Do you have a topic you want to discuss at the Town Hall? Email your request to A_Democracy@yahoo.com
“A DEMOCRACY” Disclaimer- While the administrators and moderators of this forum will attempt to remove or edit any generally objectionable material as quickly as possible, it is impossible to review every message. Therefore you acknowledge that all posts made to this forum express the views and opinions of the author and not the administrators, moderators (except for posts by these people) and hence will not be held liable.
You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-oriented or any other material that may violate any applicable laws. Doing so may lead to you being immediately and permanently banned
THE ROOF GUYS
Mickey's Diner 1950 7th Street West, St Paul, MN
(651) 698-8387
AX-MAN SURPLUS
1639 University Ave.
St. Paul, MN 55104
Tel:(651)646-8653
LANDLORD.COM LINK HERE
SHHHH! While we listen to words of wisdom from a wise man.
Conscience is the light of the Soul that burns within the chambers of our psychological heart. It is as real as life is. It raises the voice in protest whenever anything is thought of or done contrary to the righteousness. Conscience is a form of truth that has been transferred through our genetic stock in the form of the knowledge of our own acts and feelings as right or wrong. A virtuous and courageous person can alone use the instrument of conscience. He or she can alone hear the inner voice of the soul clearly. In a wicked person this faculty is absent. The sensitive nature of his / her conscience has been destroyed by sin or corruption. Hence he or she is unable to discriminate right from wrong. Those who are leading organizations, business enterprises, institutions and governments should develop this virtue of the ability to use their own conscience. This wisdom of using the clean conscience will enable them to enjoy the freedom.
Dr APJ Kalam, President of India given during the inauguration of the seminar on “THE EFFECTS OF CORRUPTION ON GOOD GOVERNANCE AND HUMAN RIGHTS
Previous Posts
- A final warning! by Nancy Lazaryan
- Saint Paul RICO Update/ The HORRORS of PHA housing
- Sara Jane Olson RE-ARRESTED!
- St. Paul contract reforms would ensure more minori...
- St. Paul / Program would offer downtown a facelift
- Mayor Coleman PARTNERS WITH SUSPECTED COMMUNIST FO...
- Notices on vacant homes may attract thieves, but S...
- Saint Paul/Update on the Aaron Foster murder trial.
- Open topics
- Months after man was hit with Taser and died, no a...
48 Comments:
Bob, whats the deal on the cities attempt to block or restrain the anticipated demonstrations marches scheduled for the RNC that the city is trying to distrupt by causing delays for the protesters to get a permit to march and demonstrate ?
The assorted circus acts that want these permits hope to be within spitting distance of the delegates...that ain't gonna happen.
The city cannot issue permits within a half mile of the Excel Center until the security arrangements have been finalized by the US Secret Service.
Thanks Swiftee !
Hey, how about this. I am going to agree with Tom Swift.
The deal on the permits is that the City isn't able to give parade routes until the Secret Service has determined security.
That was why Thune had hoped that six months ago he could have gotten the protester types to just agree to do a big event on Harriet Island, but they wouldn't go for it. They intend to sue to try and get to walk in front of the Xcel Center.
Its pretty sad. Because as someone who is not crazy about Bush, I think a counter convention on the other side of the river where you could have lined up speaker after speaker on a thousand issues would have been a great protest and could have had good media attention. A day for the war, a day for poverty, a day for health care, you get it...
But, these guys want to be arrested. That's the point.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Even a day for corruption Chuck?
This comment has been removed by the author.
This comment has been removed by the author.
Chuck, I hear the city is bringing a cattle truck down to the Dorthy Day to cart off the homeless so the fn Republicans dont get pus
eye from poverty stricken folks.
Good one Nancy, some diapers would
do.
OK Nancy a bit of a debate, but not much.
You are 100% right concerning the right to assemble...but we have competing rights.
The first question is can the City rent the City Street to someone for a private event for a period of time? They do it all of the time all over the country, they rent, parks and lakes and beeches and streets, so I am assuming that it can. Will you give me that one?
If so than the situation we have in Saint Paul is that the City has rented the Xcel Center to the RNC and are now waiting to find out what all streets they are going to rent out.
So, the protesters are asking for parade permits on streets that the City believes will be needed for the RNC. The City isn't going to rent (give a parade permit) the street to the protesters until it finds out what streets the RNC is renting.
That is my understanding of the situation, from afar, I haven't talked to Thune or anyone else, because it isn't my gig.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
That figures, Thune would want to put the protestors on an Island ?
How about Gilligans Island in the middle of the Pacific Ocean.
That would really appease the Republicans.
I hope the Dorthy Day regulars are are out in full force doing what they usually do.
Will be interesting to see what the cities plans are for those folks.
So what do they plan to do, close down the shelter and deny food and shelter to the poor ?
The homeless and hungry dont need a permit to be within half a mile from the ex cel.
Should be interesting to see how the city deals with that one !
Keep watching, the city will pull a boner on them you watch and the mayors head will roll !!!
Good question 12:07 a.m.
Chuck, you talk as if the RNC is some big block party !
They are renting the Ex-Cell not the Streets.
They will all be inside.
You cant require permits for a peaceful assembly.
The cities presumtion that there is going to be trouble is wrong.
Thats a chance their going to have to take in the name of the right to assembly !
If the city doesnt know yet what streets the RNC wants to rent, then its first come first serve.
This comment has been removed by the author.
I'm here Nancy.
Not sure where I fall on this on one. I have had to get permits for parades, marches and protests from the city before. Other groups were made to get one too. Didn't matter who was involved. I've don it for Senators, the Vice President as well as the one of the local bars for a parade. I've had to do this over the years across Minnesota and in other states like Pennsylvania, New Jersey and Ohio.
(Remember in Wayne's World one of the issues was getting a permit for their concert?)
I think you still have your right to assemble but, it doesn't over-ride the publics right to safety. Over the years (late 60's and early 70's) some of these demonstrations have shown that they can get violent and be destructive. Not just political event's but even Homecoming parades. So, in accordance with that same constitution, there is amendment ten that leaves a lot of the micro decision making to the states.
(actually permits goes back to Jim Crow)
Most states and municipalities have decided that in order for you to enjoy your right to assemble and their duty to protect everyone's rights and person, that some kind of order and agreement needs to be in place. So you file for a permit and let them know, how many you're expecting, when you'll be assembling and where. That way you get to exercise your right, we get to be safe from violent intrusions.
Before you call BS, its the same manner with guns. You have the right to own one but, you need a permit though the constitution doesn't specify how, only why (and it ain't for duck hunting).
So, its bigger than St Paul
What the hell, is there a constitutional presumption that all protests and marches are violent ?
Is this why we need permits ?
Where in the constitution is the words permit or anything like that in it ?
Ya, there were protests for veitnam
and all of it was justified.
It was the war that wasn't.
I think the protestors should forego the permit process and form groups of 3 and just hang out down there and then merge into one big unit.
Sure, by the time the cops get around to figuring it out, the groups simply break up and reform.
The only people fearing anything are the politicians who rightly deserve eggs in their faces.
You don't see members of the public asking for protection, its the city politicians protecting their own kind.
xLets talk about whether St.Paul tax payers are footing the bill for police protection services and street cleanup after the convention ?
1. People have asked for protection and so have businesses. It doesn't matter. The city has a duty to protect the citizens and its businesses. The government must protect your person and your rights.
2. Permits for public demonstrations are almost as old as the country. Vietnam was nothing compared to the riots during the Civil War draft. Entertain yourself and check out what was going on in the midwest during the 1840's.
3. Less than one percent of the thousands will be elected officials. Even if you hate politicians and believe that they give up their rights, there are still the other 99% of the attendees to the convention as well as the people who own businesses in the area, as well as the people who have to go through there for work, as well as the people who live in the area who also have rights on equal par with those who want to protest.
3. Saint Paul is not footing the bill. The RNC is footing the majority and private donors are putting up a huge amount.
There was lot of discussion and facts about this being discussed over on the well-informed E-Democracy SPIF listserve.
If you hate politicians and believe them to be deserving of violence, then I suggest you move to your choice of dictatorship-ran government in the world and that way you don't have to worry about constitutional rights, elections or the democratic process.
North Korea is looking for male citizens.
Eric
This comment has been removed by the author.
You make some obvious points Eric.
So its their convention, remember about 4 years ago the KKK held a rally at the capital ?
Lots of troopers and media attention there and I was allowed to roam around there.
Tell the RNC to hire a private security company to protect them.
Less cops protecting us for their sake is bullshit while they are inside spewing their bull shit and clapping on Q.
Bunch of phonies.
Eric I have a better Idea, lets fix up alcatraz and say that both conventions should be held there.
Nobody can get on or off the Island. Very secure and the citizens can walk the streets as always.
A majority of Americans are fed up with Bushes lies and the assisted murder by this Government of our young men and women.
What your for Eric is oppression,
control, and political attention.
If the RNC doesnt feel safe downtown then they should simply move to a place where they could feel very secure.
Alcatraz like settings would do very well.
Mad dog, Thune might like your idea.
"The city has a duty to protect the citizens and its businesses. The government must protect your person and your rights."
Don't know if I agree with you here Eric. There was a Supreme Court ruling that says you DO NOT have the right to have the Police protect you, so if you don't have the the right , where does the Government have the duty? While we're at it, when did this Government in St Paul ever care about their duty?
Maybe the RNC should have their convention on Harriet Island!
Nancy,
I can't even discuss anything with you if you are going to be ridiculous. Stringing together a line of words does not equal a well thought out position.
I remember you saying you didn't learn history at Tartan. So, I'll inform you that Rosa didn't need a permit- because permits are for any group having a public demonstration. Rosa Parks was arrested and jailed for breaking the law (an unjust racist law). A law that it took Democrats to overturn. Apples and oranges.
-----
4:57pm
I remember the KKK here quite quite well. I called the SPPD WD Commander (a guy named Harrington- moved on up since then) to check on their permit and get a permit for a counter demonstration for the DFL (I think the Republicans had left town that day because they weren't heard from). There were some professional protesters involved separate from us who made a circus of the whole deal. They also had a permit. So, the groups all had permits and the police knew how many in each group and where they would be marching or demonstrating.
The only violence from that event was some 19 year old NAZI beating up on a five year old black kid after the rally.
-------------
The city charter (sort of a local constitution for you Tartan graduates) is pretty clear on public assemblies:
Sec. 366A.01. Permit required.
(a) No person shall engage in or conduct any parade, race or public assembly without a permit issued by the chief of police.
(b) This section does not apply to National Night Out neighborhood gatherings.
(C.F. No. 05-220, § 1, 7-6-05)
Sec. 366A.02. Definitions.
(a) Chief of police means the chief of police of the city or his/her designee.
(b) City means the City of Saint Paul.
(c) Parade means any march, demonstration, procession, or motorcade, consisting of persons, animals or vehicles or a combination thereof upon the streets, sidewalks or other public grounds within the city that interferes with the normal flow or regulation of traffic upon the streets, sidewalks or other public grounds.
(d) Parade, race or public assembly permit means a permit as required by this chapter.
(e) Person means any person, firm, partnership, association, corporation, company or organization of any kind.
(f) Public assembly means any meeting, demonstration, picket line, rally or gathering of more than twenty-five (25) persons for a common purpose as a result of prior planning in or upon any street, sidewalk or other public grounds in a place open to the general public.
(g) Race means any scheduled public event or gathering of persons for athletic events that move from one location to another such as bicycle or running races.
(h) Sidewalk is any area or way set aside or open to the general public for purposes of pedestrian traffic, whether or not it is paved.
(i) Street is any place or way set aside or open to the general public for purposes of vehicular traffic, including any berm or shoulder parkway, right-of-way or median strip thereof.
(C.F. No. 05-220, § 1, 7-6-05)
Sec. 366A.03. Exceptions.
The permit requirement described in section 366A.01 shall not apply to the following:
(a) Funeral processions;
(b) Students going to and from school classes or participating in educational activities, provided that such conduct is under the immediate direction and supervision of the proper school authorities;
(c) A governmental agency acting within the scope of its functions; and
(d) Parades, races or public assemblies in parks, which are governed by Legislative Code Chapter 170.
(C.F. No. 05-220, § 1, 7-6-05)
Sec. 366A.04. Application.
(a) A person seeking a parade, race or public assembly permit shall file an application with the chief of police on forms provided by such officer and the application shall be signed by the applicant under oath. In order to ensure the timely appeal in the event of a permit denial, it is recommended that applications be filed at least sixty (60) days prior to the event. Nevertheless, any application filed within the minimum filing periods prescribed in subsection (b) below, shall be processed during business hours.
(b) For single, nonrecurring parades, races or public assemblies, an application for a permit shall be filed with the chief of police as follows:
(1) At least seven (7) business days in advance of the proposed event for parades or races of less than two hundred (200) participants and less than thirty (30) vehicles and animals;
(2) At least ten (10) business days in advance of the proposed event for parades or races of two hundred (200) or more participants, or thirty (30) or more vehicles and animals:
(3) At least five (5) calendar days in advance of the proposed event for public assemblies of less than one hundred (100) participants which will not interfere with the normal flow or regulation of vehicular traffic;
(4) At least seven (7) business days in advance of the proposed event for public assemblies of one hundred (100) or more participants or which will, regardless of size, interfere with the normal flow or regulation of vehicular traffic;
(5) No application shall be filed more than one hundred eighty (180) days before the parade, race or public assembly is proposed to commence.
(6) The chief of police may waive the minimum filing periods set forth above and accept an application filed within a shorter period if, after due consideration of the date, time, place and nature of the parade, race or public assembly, the anticipated number of participants, and the city services required in connection with the event, the chief of police determines that the waiver will not present a hazard to public safety. When determining whether to waive the minimum filing period, the chief of police may not consider the speech content of the event.
(c) For parades, races or public assemblies held on a regular or recurring basis at the same location, an application for a permit covering all such parades, races or public assemblies during that calendar year may be filed with the chief of police at least sixty (60) and not more than one hundred eighty (180) days before the date and time at which the first such parade, race or public assembly is proposed to commence. The chief of police may waive the minimum sixty (60) days period after due consideration of the factors specified in subsection (b)(6) above.
(d) The application for a parade, race or public assembly permit shall set forth the following information:
(1) The name, address and telephone number of the person seeking to conduct such parade, race or public assembly; this person should be the person in charge or chairperson of the parade, race or public assembly;
(2) The names, addresses and telephone numbers of the headquarters of the organization for which the parade, race or public assembly is to be conducted, if any, and the authorized and responsible heads of the organization;
(3) The requested date of the parade, race or public assembly;
(4) The location of the parade, race or public assembly and the route to be traveled, including the starting point and the termination point;
(5) The hours when such parade, race or public assembly will start and terminate;
(6) The statement as to whether the parade, race or public assembly will occupy all or only a portion of the width of the streets proposed to be traversed;
(7) The location by street of any assembly areas for such parade, race or public assembly;
(8) The time at which units of the parade, race or public assembly will begin to assemble at any such area;
(9) The intervals of space to be maintained between units of such parade or public assembly;
(10) If the parade, race or public assembly is designed to be held by, or on behalf of, any person other than the applicant, the applicant for such permit shall file a letter from that person with the chief of police authorizing the applicant to apply for the permit on his behalf;
(11) The type of parade, race or public assembly, including a description of activities planned during the event;
(12) A description of any sound amplification equipment to be used in connection with the parade, race or public assembly;
(13) The approximate number of participants (spectators are by definition not participants), including the type and number of animals and vehicles;
(14) The approximate number of spectators reasonably anticipated;
(15) A designation of any public facilities or equipment to be utilized; and
(16) Where the event is in an area covering two blocks or less of sidewalks, streets or other public property, the addresses of any properties that abut the location of the parade, race or public assembly;
(17) Where the event is in an area covering two (2) blocks or less of sidewalks, streets or other public property, a signed statement by the permit applicant stating that all the addresses of any properties that abut the location of the parade, race or public assembly, have received notification of the event.
(18) Any additional information that the chief of police finds reasonably necessary to a fair determination as to whether a permit should issue.
-------
I haven't heard that this part of the legislative code was unconstitutional.
Eric
Maybe not unconstitutional, but many ordinances and local laws have been found by our courts to be overly broad and capracious to the extent that they are illegal.
How about the photo cop law in Minneapolis.
Do you not realize that the permit deal for the demonstrations for the RNC is in court and the very law that you cite Eric is being tested ?
Lets see what becomes of it.
It doesnt have to be unconstitutional to be bad.
The only thing the laws that Eric cites doesnt restrict is your right to breathe.
The city council and attorneys that cooked up these laws sure had dictatorship and oppression in mind.
This comment has been removed by the author.
I am not arguing public good, I am just simply saying that you can not have the circus parade and the PETA parade at the same time on the same street. The City gets to give one of them a permit to "own" the street for the day.
The big diferrence between Nancy and I is that I believe "we the people" are the government and she believes that the government are alliens from another planet.
I think that the City can say that from Thursday from Sunday these streets belong to the RNC.
The Courts (another group of alliens that have dropped in from another planet) have said that Cities are allowed to do that as long as the protests can be seen and heard from the convention. That they haven't restricted the area so far as to elliminate the ability to protest.
My nickle says anyone how makes it to Kellogg without a pass, goes to jail.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
This comment has been removed by the author.
Nowhere in the law that Eric cites does it say that no more than one group of 25 or less cannot have a permit.
Did the laws change since ?
Nancy its not your street its all of our streets and "we the people" elect someone as caretakers of the government. We allow them to decide if you walk in the street or on the sidewalk and if you drive on the left side or the right side of the street.
I don't care about your god and no god that I know of has ever suported democracy, which is what we have in this country.
It is not your "god given right" to walk the side walk. It is your right as an American Citizen.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Chuck, the state statute 609.705 gives us citizens the right to assemble 3 0r more so long as we keep the peace.
The citys charter laws are more restrictive than the state statute so it illegal.
Minnesota statute 609.705.
Jeff Matiatos
But Chuck your so wrong. God does support a democracy. God is a Republican....he keeps the money flowing in case you haven't noticed.
This comment has been removed by the author.
I was going to point out some laughable oxymorons such as:
"What the hell, is there a constitutional presumption that all protests and marches are violent? The only people fearing anything are the politicians who rightly deserve eggs in their faces."
I was going to point out the lunacy of believing that Republican delegates will simply allow themselves to be physically assaulted without complaint, the law of unintended consequences, and why there really is no alternative to keeping the drooling bottle throwers away from civilized attendants.
human beings.
But dissecting moonbat barking makes my brain hurt, and I'm just not in the mood.
So sure, let's allow the moonbat hoards right into the Excel and we'll just club and taze each other to the floor.
Last one standing gets to choose the President.
That is at the least, guaranteed to be less painful than reading any more of the idiocy that's been offered by some of you goofs.
I never thought I'd see the day where Chuck Repke was the voice of reason in a comment thread.
But there ya go.
Swiftee, some of the posters here live in a world of their own reality. I don't even have to mention any names, just read through this thread and you catch on real fast.Read long enough and you can determine the regular anonymous posters writing characterizations.
There is a mixed bag of intellect here. OH, by the way I am the "SIMPLETON", ask Bill Cullen.
I'm a simpleton because Chuck and Eric post all the information I need to know.
Although out numbered, Chuck and Eric represent the dfl party very well here.
Swiftee, the highest percentage of posters here are republicans. They represent you and your party here... lol!
Let me see if I understand your prattle, anon-a-bat.
You're suggesting that Republicans are in here demanding that leftist protesters have the right to assault them?
It's no wonder you hide your identity, ya goof; but your inane comment makes your political affiliation clear.
See, this is what I'm talking about. Reading, or listening to a lefty is genuinely painful.
This prattle isn't clever or witty, it's not pointed or thought provoking in any way; it's just plain ignorant.
And it's not limited to anonymous lefty keyboard commandos either.
One need only listen to Al Franken for five minutes to realize that any group of people that would consider, even as a joke, nominating him for the US Senate is seriously lacking in basic, adult reasoning.
The city of Saint Paul is tasked with keeping such mental deficients as far away from the RNC as humanly possible. It's going to be a tough job.
Here is the mentality of the morons we're dealing with:
"Thank you, ladies, gentlemen, and otherly-gendered of the press, for joining us on this, most glorious of occasions.
This Labor Day weekend, anarchists and anti-authoritarians from every city, every town, every hamlet, every last Hooverville of this great nation convened a grand congress.
Together, we have magicked into being a detailed plan, worthy of note, to receive the 2008 Republican National Convention.
Like many a good plan, it is broad in scope, aimed at nothing less than complete control (!!) of this hallowed turf, our fair city.
Today, we declare our first victory, having achieved a complete shutdown of government services citywide.
This we have accomplished whilst wading in the dark tide of the State and their attempts to crush us on the first eve of our festivities, when the gentle flesh of our comrades was met with hard metal and penetrating volts by members of the self-appointed police force – a foreshadowing glimpse.
Yet here we stand, and our chariots ride on.
Much as a phoenix rises from its own ashes, we admit that tomorrow the city will function anew. But know this: its hegemony, like all but the truest of loves, is fleeting, ephemeral."
I'm sure that makes perfect sense to five year olds and anonymous lefty keyboard commandos, but it leaves the rest of us wondering whether we are preparing for an attack by committed anti-Americans, or by confused downs syndrome sufferers.
Riot sticks, or warm milk and Barney? I dunno.
Chcuk says,"The big diferrence between Nancy and I is that I believe "we the people" are the government and she believes that the government are alliens from another planet."
Ciani Says,"Yes Chuck your right you are the government with all your special funding and prveledges you recieve.Chuck we the people don't have the ins and outs you have with this local gevernment.We don't go out and have drinks and dinner with council members."
Tim Ciani
OK, I will try this again. They are "our" public streets. The elected government has to power to sell and/or lease public property (and the HRA does that all of the time). From time to time private groups will want to use the streets. The government has the ability to give permits to allow a private party to "own" the street for the day.
You have a right to assemble on your property and on public property.
BUT during the RNC if the City has turned over Kellogg to the RNC you will not be assembling on a public street, you will be trespassing on "private" property.
That work better for you?
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Fine then, when code enforcement attempts to come on to my property,(private) they are tresspassing right Chuck ?
It's all over Chcuk. The city's gonna take a big hit and no how you try and spin it, the results still come out the same.....the city's screwed. Thr protesters are gonna get them, then landlords are gonna get thenm, and then all the rest of the citizenry that have been screwed over are gonna carve them up like a thanksgiving dinner. Meanwhile, Nancy L will be handing you your hat!
This comment has been removed by the author.
Your right Nancy, but you fail to recognize that the machine is built of people not nuts and bolts..
Oh, let me amend that, they are nuts .
Jeff Matiatos
Post a Comment
<< Home