Saint Paul Issues and Forums Double Standard
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posted by Bob at Tuesday, April 13, 2010
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Tuesday, April 13, 2010
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42 Comments:
LINK TO STORY HERE
All of you regulars here in the know, know what these dip shits did to me to silence my voice.
I read an email between board members they felt I was winning public perception and one of them "Bob Spaulding" wanted me suspended. He was upset I exposed one of his so called well respected non profits for hiring kids to rip asbestos siding off a house. It doesn't get any clearer than that does it Bob Spaulding? My grammar & spelling was chastised. I was insulted frequently. I did all I could not to violate the rules so they could use that to shut me up. When none of this chased me away I too was asked for my drivers license for identification to be a member at SPIF.
Then of coarse there was the devious way in which they prohibited me from commenting at SPIF. Over an issue that had nothing to do with SPIF.
THE TRUTH IS PROHIBITED at SPIF "IF EMBARRASSING" TO THE DFL AND CORE OF SPIF! RICK MONS, have you EVER asked a liberal who was opinionated against a conservative for his ID?
The controlling interest of SPIF play all kinds of games with people they do not want heard.
I wouldn't put it past the bureaucracy in Saint Paul to commit voter fraud. Saint Paul Issues and Forums is a wash with city political insiders from the left and look at how dirty they play.
I am all for voter ID.
Amen Brother! SPIF should change their non profit status.
Puh-Lease Bob, you don't have a constitutional right to participate in SPIF. You do have one to vote and without proof of fraud, we shouldn't be instilling any hurdles for people.
As a self-proclaimed civil rights activist, you and Bill Dahn should know that poll taxes were outlawed in the 1960's. Forcing people to spend money to exercise their right to vote is akin to a poll tax.
But, the bigger story is who will be affected? What about the homeless or displaced people or people who move a lot- what do you do when they show up with an ID that doesn't show their proper address, or worst yet, the voter file shows someone else living at that address that already voted? Or, you have a common name like Steve Anderson, Bob Johnson or Bill Christiansen? That name will be at multiple points on the voter file.
The poor will be discouraged and it creates undue burden. When voter fraud becomes a problem, then we can talk. I've been hearing for six years but the only people to be convicted of voter fraud are Republicans.
I can't wait for the legal brain trust of ADTH to come together on this one. On one hand, you really want to support the latest conspiracy and stand with the republicans, on other hand, you supposedly give a damn about the poor and disenfranchised and everything about this will certainly affect them the most.
Some of you it won't be so hard to decide. You really never gave a damn about those people, just enough to get them to hand over their money to you.
Eric
And SPIF bends over backwards to keep you conservatives from bitching about them or leaving. However, just like in Congress, yo uhave a problem following the rules.
Every last one of you who left, did so after purposely pushing the envelope to make a point and a victim out of yourself- Mitch and Tom Swift comes to mind. Krenik is trying to feign outrage over the teabagging term so that he can join the club of martyrs. Bob, you weren't kicked out- you left. You were defended by one of the biggest liberals on SPIF- Grace Kelly (real name). I was suspended and returned. I've been warned a few times too.
Claiming that tea-bagging is a gay bashing term is as stupid as that kiss ass Krenik who said it. Without being too graphic, plenty of straight couples can and do enjoy tea-bagging among other things. Yes, they are usually young, unmarried and its a one time deal but, its not an exclusive gay thing.
Most people who write on SPIF have been to the public gatherings or are known because, we don't hide behind fake monikers. The moderators offer to come and meet with you and have coffee or beer anywhere at almost anytime you want.
Rick should stick to his guns, if they want to say dumb shit and stay anonymous, they are welcome here with their brethren, or any comment section in the newspaper.
When people have sign their name by their words, they are less likely to be personal and petty and off-topic.
But, the paranoid thought process around here puts a punishing unseen force out there your posters fear to the point that they won't sign their names. Bunch of chickens- BOO!
Eric
Eric is the last one in the world who should be preaching about anyones civil rights. In my opinion he has stood by and spun every single talking point he can think of to continue the civil rights violations that the city commits against people. What a hypocrite! The only time you are for civil right Eric is when it suits the agenda you believe in.
What civil rights violation have I downplayed?
You can cut and paste it right here.
Eric
Eric,
"Claiming that tea-bagging is a gay bashing term is as stupid as that kiss ass Krenik who said it. Without being too graphic, plenty of straight couples can and do enjoy tea-bagging among other things. Yes, they are usually young, unmarried and its a one time deal but, its not an exclusive gay thing."
You seem to know a lot about Tea Bagging, care to explain more? Do you have a special way of doing it? Please tell us, we are waiting. May be you can write a book of how to tea bag. You could call it Tea Bagging for Dummies. You could be the Cliff Notes guy on the subject.
Come on Eric! If I have to show ID to participate at your DFL indoctrination cesspool than a drivers license to vote is no big deal and insures the bureaucracy isn't stealing votes. What ID is OK when it concerns a conservative but it isn't good for Democrats? I gotta feeling why.
Eric said;
And SPIF bends over backwards to keep you conservatives from bitching about them or leaving.
My response;
Stretching the truth aren't you Eric? Just like an inside DFLer, tell the same lie long enough and the "ignorant" will believe it.
Eric said;
However, just like in Congress, you have a problem following the rules.
My response;
There are 2 sets of rules at E Democracy. One favoring liberals and one set of rules to purge the forum of outspoken conservatives.
If SPIF followed rules I would of been the last man standing in our debates there. All of you DFL insiders would have been suspended or terminated from posting for your behavior. Thing was I didn't cry like a little sissy to Michelle Fure over the rules you guys were breaking.
Eric said;
Bob, you weren't kicked out- you left. You were defended by one of the biggest liberals on SPIF- Grace Kelly (real name).
My response;
I was suspended for one year. I was told I would be moderated if I came back. I told Grace and Tim I would not come back. I was suspended under false pretenses and as I have in the past, I challenge Bob Spaulding, Grace Kelly and Tim to come here and debate the issue. HERE "We are on a REAL truth seeking mission.
Concerning my suspension. Grace wanted me to stay on at SPIF so I could be challenged on the issues.
My opinion of Grace. I like Grace on a personal level. She is a wonderful person. But when it comes to her party she is true blue.
When the board of SPIF met with me at DIVA's Grace had commented the music there was to loud. I responded to her saying we were sitting right in front of the stage and the speakers. Later she tossed this accusation around at SPIF in a comment of support for Helgen. Grace's colors are blue and she will stretch the truth to keep those colors from fading.
Eric said;
Most people who write on SPIF have been to the public gatherings or are known because, we don't hide behind fake monikers.
My response;
"Some" have been to SPIF gatherings. Mostly a handful of insiders from what I am told. Once again Eric do you believe Rick Mons has ever asked a liberal for ID? My guess is NO!
Eric said;
The moderators offer to come and meet with you and have coffee or beer anywhere at almost anytime you want.
My response;
All in an attempt to change a members perception of reality.
Eric said;
Rick should stick to his guns, if they want to say dumb shit and stay anonymous, they are welcome here with their brethren, or any comment section in the newspaper.
My response;
You bet anonymous posters are welcome here. Safe from the history of Insider DFL retaliation or ostracization.
Eric said;
When people have sign their name by their words, they are less likely to be personal and petty and off-topic.
My response;
Personal is good when somebody has it coming. There is so many rules at SPIF folks true character is gagged and bound. Letting folks know my identity hasn't stopped me from getting personal with those who have it coming.
SEE---> Rick Mon's is a fat conniving ass who is as blue as Grace Kelly. He posted here at A Democracy years ago I believed it was an attempt to discourage others from using this site. He claimed that a member of this town hall may have attempted to spray paint graffiti on his garage. Most the readers and supporter of this town hall are senior citizens. What a fricking joke!
DFlers are saying the samethings about the E Democracy cesspool.
Come on Eric! If I have to show ID to participate at your DFL indoctrination cesspool than a drivers license to vote is no big deal and insures the bureaucracy isn't stealing votes. What ID is OK when it concerns a conservative but it isn't good for Democrats? I gotta feeling why.
Retarded, illogical, non-sensical bullshit. As usual.
One is private intellectual property the other is a constitutional right. Like a company, a board runs sets the tone for E-Democracy. Your right to vote is protected by the Constitution and overseen by the Judicial, Executive and Legislative branches.
Are you so damn stupid and blind that you will fall in line with bigots and idiots just because they day the government is corrupt, threatening, or after you?
If we start to require an ID for voting, then I want an intelligence test. Answer some questions about our government divisions and how they work and you can then participate. So long ADemocracy voters although, looking around town, it doesn't appear you vote often anyway.
You low information and uninformed voters are bigger threats to democracy than some disenfranchised individual.
Eric
You seem to know a lot about Tea Bagging, care to explain more? Do you have a special way of doing it? Please tell us, we are waiting. May be you can write a book of how to tea bag. You could call it Tea Bagging for Dummies. You could be the Cliff Notes guy on the subject.
10:40 PM
What are you, Bob's smarter brother?
Teabagging is a part of a blow-job when your partner takes one or both (if you're tiny) of your balls in her/or his(your choice) mouth.
Last time I checked, plenty of us straight guys enjoy a bj from women when we can get it and the game is not on. Its not a gay thing. Krenik played it out like it was something that only gays do and it was offensive to gays to use the term teabagging. Maybe that his and your experience. Maybe you guys are too old to know what it is.
Eric
Eric Said: "If we start to require an ID for voting, then I want an intelligence test. Answer some questions about our government divisions and how they work and you can then participate. So long ADemocracy voters although, looking around town, it doesn't appear you vote often anyway."
My Response: Intelligence tests are what the Democrats did ion the south to keep the African American population from voting. I see you are still for this.
Eric said: "You low information and uninformed voters are bigger threats to democracy than some disenfranchised individual."
My response: Low information and uniformed voters = the DFL voting block. Sheep is a word that comes to mind. If you want to go with the above proposals, why don't you just restrict voting to property owners, as they foot the bill for the taxes?
Eric said to me;
Retarded, illogical, non-sensical bullshit. As usual.
My response;
Your true character couldn't shine at E Democracy could it! The only thing you got over the sheep there is balls.
Eric showing ID to vote is not hindering any one's constitutional rights. You don't have ID and can't vote because of it, nobody stopped you from getting an ID. Your constitutional rights will not of been hindered.
If you are questioned by a cop on the street and you don't have ID and the cop can't find the name you gave him in the system, you can be arrested. It's common sense to carry ID for many reasons.
There is no excuse for not having an ID if you are over 18.
We better push hard for this ID thing. From the reaction of DFL insiders we might be onto something here.
Eric,
I'll respond to this bit here - but please don't interpret that fact as me thinking it's worth the time in any way.
And SPIF bends over backwards to keep you conservatives from bitching about them or leaving.
Really, Eric? How did they "bend over backwards? Ever?
No, indeed Eric, back in 2008 they ran their little survey, and the big conclusion was that SPIF wanted "less argument". Except politics is about argument; you try to keep it civil (don't we, Eric?), but there is DISSENT.
And the survey, and the "board" members, made it clear that it was the dissent that bothered them; they believed that SPIF would be just Huuuuuuuuge if there were no arguments.
Every last one of you who left, did so after purposely pushing the envelope to make a point and a victim out of yourself- Mitch and Tom Swift comes to mind.
Eric, it's a good thing you don't work in a field where you have to be accurate or anything.
The only "envelope-pushing" I did was to show Rick Mons' bias and hypocrisy after an episode where Andy Driscoll wrote a post whose ENTIRE content was "when will people stop getting sucked in by Mitch Berg's irrational illogic" (that is a word-perfect full quote of the whole post) - and Rick Mons said it passed the "civility rule", since it was "just his opinion".
But he suspended me for calling *unnamed* RNC vandals an uncivil name.
So yeah, Eric, I broke "the rule". Any person with a brain and a sense of ethnics who gives a crap about real intellectual discourse would have.
Krenik is trying to feign outrage over the teabagging term so that he can join the club of martyrs.
I do hope you don't try to get a gig as a clairvoyant.
Claiming that tea-bagging is a gay bashing term is as stupid...its not an exclusive gay thing.
But it IS exclusively insulting - and if SPIF allowed it, then it's further evidence that their "rules" are slanted well past meaninglessness and all the way over to full-blown bias.
Which was my point all along.
When people have sign their name by their words, they are less likely to be personal
(Someone pass the word on to pretty much every liberal blogger in town, couldja?)
Oh, yeah - I also pushed the boundaries because while E-Democracy was a useful exercise in the mid-90s, it's a waste of time today. My blog gets more traffic by Monday afternoon that SPIF gets all week. It's an electronic buggywhip factory.
Eric wants a intelligence test to vote? Carefull what you wish for Eric. You'll be locked out of the voting booth.
Eric is defending the rat party again, because he's one of them.
We don't need trash form Illinois coming to St.Paul and telling us we are wrong and they are right.
Down with the rat party Eric, get your rat friend in Washington to show us his birth Cit. he is not a American, and he sure ain't a Christian.
Let's see. Unintelligible dribble with a conspiracy that rises to the Supreme Court and Presidency. Hello Bill Dahn, take your meds.
6:43...My Response: Intelligence tests are what the Democrats did ion the south to keep the African American population from voting. I see you are still for this.
BINGO!!! My point exactly. I'm not for impediments to anyone voting. If you saw a stat that showed over 40% of black men and the poor in this country did not have proper ID- would you change your mind? Remember, everyone must show proper updated ID when registering to vote. When you show up on election day, you actually sign your name attesting under oath you are this person and can vote. Its an AFFIDAVIT, not just a sign in sheet. You can be charged if you lie.
6:43...the DFL voting block. Sheep is a word that comes to mind. If you want to go with the above proposals, why don't you just restrict voting to property owners, as they foot the bill for the taxes?
There is only one party that is in lockstep. Republicans. Democrats are very diverse in their views and representation. It was you republicans who keep pointing out that we have a majority and can pass whatever we want but, keep disagreeing among ourselves. In both cities the DFL has all or a majority of the seats on the council and the mayors office- yet, the votes come down split and rare is there a unanimous support on major issues.
When Republicans had everything, they sunk the economy, jumped half-assed into two wars, grew the government a lot, ruined our good will internationally, and left us in a near depression.
That's what you get when you blindly walk in lockstep. Give me the bickering and bare-knuckles within the Democratic Party anytime. That's Democracy Vladmir.
Eric
Eric showing ID to vote is not hindering any one's constitutional rights. You don't have ID and can't vote because of it, nobody stopped you from getting an ID. Your constitutional rights will not of been hindered.
How about money? So having to purchase something to vote is not a poll tax because...?
The state has to provide free IDs is they are going to make it a requirement for voting. This has already been fought in the Supreme Court.
Indiana has the most stringent ID laws for voting, in early 2008 it was upheld by the high court but, they did offer free IDs so that there is no an extra cost to exercise your right to vote.
You're just shooting your mouth off about something you know nothing of. Use the Bob Johnson research style and ask people around you, who has valid ID that is updated.
Seems to me that a person who supposedly tells people he gives a damn about the poor and minorities whom rent in the city, would be more aware of the reality when it comes to proper ID. You are not.
However, your Republican masters are very well aware. They know exactly who is less likely to make the effort to stay updated the working classes, poor and minorities. The DFL base. They are willing to make it more difficult for them to vote and you are willing to wave the pom poms for them all the way.
If you are questioned by a cop on the street and you don't have ID and the cop can't find the name you gave him in the system, you can be arrested. It's common sense to carry ID for many reasons.
Not without probable cause. Since I know the 4th Amendment has been eroded to an ink stained joke, there are attorneys who still believe in it and will expose the culprits. Between Reagan's War on Drugs and Bush's Homeland Security activities, your 4th Amendment Right is almost paper only. Just ask Bob Fletcher about illegal searches.
So, no Bob, its illegal unless you voluntarily give it up.
There is no excuse for not having an ID if you are over 18
Plenty. The key word is valid ID. Check the current statistics.
We better push hard for this ID thing. From the reaction of DFL insiders we might be onto something here.
Absolutely you're on to something. I'm just so surprised you're so upfront about it.
Minnesota has the highest percentage of voter participation in the country without a hint of organized fraud. Its a solution looking for a problem.
Eric
Eric,
I'll respond to this bit here - but please don't interpret that fact as me thinking it's worth the time in any way.
You got it. I'll go one step further and not even respond to any of it.
Eric
You got it. I'll go one step further and not even respond to any of it.
Ooh, well played!
You don't have a response, of course; Mons never had one; E-D's founders threatened to toss anyone from the forum, forever, with no readmittance, if they even asked about the stuff I brought up (which was why I *first* left E-D back in 2002).
E-Democracy has an institutional bias. That's fine; they are just fundamentally dishonest about it, and it doesn't matter to me because, hello, I have a big blog and a talk show that kicks ass. Like I need to argue via email with Grace Kelly. As I believe I told him at the forum at the time, Bob made the right move by bagging out on the SPIF forum and starting the blog.
I'm just puzzled by what looks like your need to rationalize SPIF's dysfunction and disingenuity.
Eric said: "When Republicans had everything, they sunk the economy, jumped half-assed into two wars, grew the government a lot, ruined our good will internationally, and left us in a near depression."
My Response:
The House of Representatives was returned to Democrats Control in 2007 under the campaign of change led by Ms. Pelosi. The first 7 Bush years were full of economic growth, small defecits and low unemployment, even after Bush inhertied the Dot com bubble burst and a recession from Clinton but never once did Bush blame Clinton no, no, no, then America got hit by The worst Terror attack on our shores ever (911) a major crash on wall street, a major hit to TOURISM (10 percent of GDP), Then the worst Natural Disaster on our shores Ever (Katrina). Of course Obama has had his share of challenges, with the housing bubble burst and the bank bailouts causing a deep recession but if he would have acted swiftly and created jobs instead of investing in Pelosi's failed stimulus plan then we could have overcome the challenges but so far Obama has done nothing but blame Bush and fail to fix any of what he says is broken. Spend, Spend, Spend and the bill is coming due people the bill is coming due.
Nows there a post that wouldn't be allowed on SPIF.
"Saint Paul Issues and Forums Double Standard"
I'm not sure? but Sandy Pappas was for the NO ID Needed if you have a witness or neighbor to say they know you.
That means we can have at least million of illegal's voting for Omama as long as they had someone that would say they are who they say are?.
ACCORN helped Obama win with their lower then low tactics, then Obama gave ACCORN a
"big Stimulus check" in return.
"Saint Paul Issues and Forums Double Standard"
I'm not sure? but Sandy Pappas was for the NO ID Needed if you have a witness or neighbor to say they know you.
That means we can have at least million of illegal's voting for Omama as long as they had someone that would say they are who they say are?.
ACCORN helped Obama win with their lower then low tactics, then Obama gave ACCORN a
"big Stimulus check" in return.
Well, there are lies and then there are damn lies. This has both- good job Dahn.
Paragraph One: A person can only vouch for so many- like five or seven people. They sign and sworn affidavit. So, if Sandy was part of a plot to get illegals to vote Bill, someone should call her on it. She'd be in trouble for a type of perjury and would have to leave office. You guys would win one for a change. But, we know this is conspiracy island and Bob is Mr Rourke and Bill Dahn is Tattoo. Tattoo is just making shit up.
Obama won 11 states that Bush won. Acorn didn't do that. Acorn works in inner cities mostly- where everybody votes democrat anyway. Obama took rural whites, senior whites at a rate only LBJ was able to match. In other words, he won Republican states. He won Congressional districts that voted for republicans but him as president.
Acorn did not get a windfall from the stimulus package - which has worked to stave off the depression that Bush left us on his way out.
As far as low voting tactics you may want to look at where there really has been arrests and jail time given, Republican operations.
Republicans were very busy leading up to the 08 elections even firing US Attorneys would wouldn't fake charges for them
McCain's paid operative with Minnesota connections
You want more? Bring something to the table. These are not individuals making mistakes, these are organizations out to suppress Americans from voting. Your Republican Party, working for you.
Eric
The House of Representatives was returned to Democrats Control in 2007 under the campaign of change led by Ms. Pelosi. The first 7 Bush years were full of economic growth, small defecits and low unemployment, even after Bush inhertied the Dot com bubble burst and a recession from Clinton but never once did Bush blame Clinton no, no, no, then America got hit by The worst Terror attack on our shores ever (911) a major crash on wall street, a major hit to TOURISM (10 percent of GDP), Then the worst Natural Disaster on our shores Ever (Katrina). Of course Obama has had his share of challenges, with the housing bubble burst and the bank bailouts causing a deep recession but if he would have acted swiftly and created jobs instead of investing in Pelosi's failed stimulus plan then we could have overcome the challenges but so far Obama has done nothing but blame Bush and fail to fix any of what he says is broken. Spend, Spend, Spend and the bill is coming due people the bill is coming due.
Nows there a post that wouldn't be allowed on SPIF.
Well, you're right it wouldn't be allowed. Like a good republican you don't read. The rules state is has to be St Paul specific.
First- Reagan had a worst employment economy and he deficit spent our way out of it. As a matter of fact- he ran the highest deficits in history- until W Bush one upped him.
The day the Bush administration took over from President Bill Clinton in 2001, America enjoyed a $236 billion budget surplus -- with a projected 10-year surplus of $5.6 trillion. When the Bush administration left office, it handed President Obama a $1.3 trillion deficit -- and projected shortfalls of $8 trillion for the next decade. During eight years in office, the Bush administration passed two major tax cuts skewed to the wealthiest Americans, enacted a costly Medicare prescription-drug benefit and waged two wars, without paying for any of it.
The Bush administration's swing from surpluses to deficits added more debt in its eight years than all the previous administrations in the history of our country combined.
But, there is more. It was projected by the CBO that Bush's unpaid-for policies will continue to add trillions (8) to our deficit. All before Obama was sworn in.
It was President Bush -- not Obama -- who signed into law the $700 billion Troubled Asset Relief Program "bailout for banks."
Obama's administration came in and added transparency and accountability that have cut the expected cost of that bailout program by two-thirds. The American taxpayers is currently receiving its money back with interest.
You were saying something about Katrina?
A 2006 report compiled by House Republicans slammed what it called “a failure of leadership,” saying that the federal government’s “blinding lack of situational awareness and disjointed decision making needlessly compounded and prolonged Katrina’s horror.” The report specifically blamed Bush, noting that “earlier presidential involvement could have speeded the response” because the president alone could have cut through bureaucratic resistance.
Two years after Katrina, Billions in relief funds were missing
Though he was slow to react, Bush was quick to hand out some of the first and biggest contracts to cronies
Are you missing him yet?
Eric
DE-Fend the party and maybe you all can go straight into shoe shinning.
Who's defending? I'm doing what I always do on here: You all throw out BS, and I spend time throwing out facts.
And you, little coward who has no name worth writing, are not good enough to shine my shoes. So, move on Loser.
Eric
Eric,
You talk about Bush firing 8 U. S. Attorneys, but Clinton fired 93 of them.
Here is an article in the WSJ for you:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009784
"fired all 93 U.S. Attorneys in March 1993."
You talk about President Obama's administration and how they, "added transparency and accountability that have cut the expected cost of that bailout program by two-thirds. The American taxpayers is currently receiving its money back with interest."
What have you been smoking?
You say Obama has added transparency and accountability. This administration only knows how to blame others, practice slimy politics and their approval rating show the American people don't approve of his tactics or methods. Can we say Obama is out of touch with reality?
Taking over or nationalizing 1/6 of our economy, why do you think companies like 3M are leaving US soil, it is because of Democrats and their Socialist policies. You should check out the article in the WSJ on 3M. It may open your eyes.
Look at St. Paul, dead as a doornail and the Democrats were in power. Don't go into LGA, as the funding formula for LGA was changed back in 2000. The city, like the school district needed to control spending and they didn't, thus the shortfall. Eric, I wish I had taxing authority like the city and school district. Taxing authority is like a money tree for out of control governments like St. Paul and the Obama administration.
5:46 moron... Every new President asks for and gets the resignation of all of the US Attorneys at the start of their terms. They then appoint the best and brightest of their side into those positions, and they are expected to run their offices fairly and without political interference.
Eric's point was Bush fired 8 of HIS US Attorneys because they wouldn't use their office as a political attack machine. They actually had honor and that pissed off Bush so he fired them and replaced them with stooges.
As to LGA it was designed to keep property taxes down because cities don't have the power from the state to do an income tax. If they did we wouldn't need the state to tax us through an income tax and then give the money back to the cities. What Pawlenty is doing is taking that tax that was designed to keep your property taxes down and keeping to provide state services, since he can't balance his budget without stealing from the cities and school districts.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
The problem today is that people just don't want to be informed if it goes against their closely held beliefs or suspicions.
Thanks Chuck for giving me hand.
You say Obama has added transparency and accountability. This administration only knows how to blame others, practice slimy politics and their approval rating show the American people don't approve of his tactics or methods. Can we say Obama is out of touch with reality?
I don't know what you're trying to say here. You don't believe the part about transparency?
Bush sent his Treasury Secretary to Congress to ask for 700 billion dollars after Lehman Bros crashed and two other giants were about to fail. It was just THREE pages. 700 BILLION DOLLARS and only three pages!
Democrats in Congress and Obama cited the lack of accountability with these funds- BEFORE Obama was sworn in as President.
This is a link to the public site Obama's administration set-up so that ANYBODY can track government recovery dollars. That's transparency and accountability you just don't get in a three page brief.
Taking over or nationalizing 1/6 of our economy, why do you think companies like 3M are leaving US soil, it is because of Democrats and their Socialist policies. You should check out the article in the WSJ on 3M. It may open your eyes.
The President and Congress didn't nationalize anything. Nothing. Nada. PRIVATE insurance companies are about to get 30 plus million customers!
The burden on emergency care (the most expensive footed by taxpayers) and public health programs like medicare and medicaid will have their taxpayer supported burden lightened.
If you believe that about 3M well, I've got a great deal on the Lafayette Bridge for you. The real reason these companies leave is because they don't give a damn about the country. The have one objective, cut as much as they can in production to maximize profits. They don't pay their fair share of taxes.
66% of U.S. companies and 68% of foreign corporations do not pay federal income taxes, according to a congressional report
Its doesn't matter if they profit BILLIONS, they find a way to shift the burden on the working people who have no choice but to pay taxes starting with payroll.
Exxon Mobile and GE profits in the tens of billions gamed the system to pay the IRS zero in taxes
The guy working for a living has to make up those billions. Until these 'tea partys' focus on the big picture, their masters that fund them will continue to rape the government for our tax dollars to their corporate welfare.
You keep bitching about $15/month.
Eric
Eric,
I realize that you're a DFLer, and I have to spot you a couple of goals on knowledge of history just to make it fair.
But really; the parts of your spiel that weren't digressions (you really can't find many actual conservatives who defend Bush's spending record; he was more of a Democrat than Clinton was) are pretty much unadorned Dem chanting points.
For example, this oldie but goodie:
Reagan had a worst employment economy and he deficit spent our way out of it
Well, he did inherit a terrible economy. And Volker's tight-money policy did lead to a period of really bad unemployment; it was a means to sweat a lot of bad out of the economy. And it worked; by the end of his first term, unemployement was rocketing downward, and stayed there for most of the next twenty years.
As to the deficit? Well, like Lincoln and FDR, he had a war to win; his didn't happen to involve shooting, but it In the meantime, he had to deal with the O'Neil Congress, which fought tooth and nail to keep every wasteful social-spending nickel they had; remember, the Dems controlled both houses on Capital Hill for most of Reagan's presidency.
And the part Eric's chanting point missed is that it worked. Economist Robert Lindeman of Heritage noted that Reagan's deficits - at least the defense-related ones - more than paid for themselves during the nineties; the extinction of the USSR led to the "peace dividend" which freed up billions in capital and technology which went into the civilian economy; spurred by Reagan's low tax rates (even Bush 41 and Clinton couldn't undo all the good), it set the economy on puree for most of the decade.
(Clinton, for his part, at least got out of the way, after he had the good sense to dump Hillarycare).
So Reagan spent in deficit - a tiny fraction of today's deficits, even adjusting for inflation - but cut taxes and set the stage for a huge boom that outlived even his own boom years.
Sorry, but we can't really say that for PBO.
Sorry, Eric; the problem with chanting points is that if the rhythm gets broken, they make no sense.
Chuck said, " What Pawlenty is doing is taking that tax that was designed to keep your property taxes down and keeping to provide state services, since he can't balance his budget without stealing from the cities and school districts."
My Reply, "You say without stealing from the cities and school districts, well you are incorrect. The house and senate passed the LGA reform. LGA Chuck is tax money from other parts of Minnesota and is used in core cities. Governor Pawlenty didn't take anything, cities like St. Paul don't have an endless supply of money anymore. Please talk to Pat Harris about living withing ones pocketbook. St. Paul needed to construct a budget that matched the new revised LGA formula. This was a law that Governor Pawlenty signed, but the lawmakers voted it in.
Schools: Since 2000 enrollment has gone down, but the level of employees has stayed about the same. Not until last year did the district cut employees. What you saw is strong union job protectionism. You had a tax levy to support these extra employees. It would have been good if these teachers were actually put back into the classroom to reduce class size, but they weren't. These extra staff became TOSAs (Teachers of Special Assignment) or teacher Coaches. The achievement rate went way down where we have the highest dropout rate in the nation. This dropout fact is from Tom Gillespe (State of Minnesota) and Steve Schellenberg (SPPS). These are national figures. So St. Paul is spending over $17,400 per student per year and the achievement levels are going down. Only 23% of the 11th grade students are proficient in Math. District wide less than 50% are proficient in Math and Reading (SPPS and State of Minnesota figures). The only thing that has happened over the last ten years in SPPS is jobs were protected instead of using taxpayer money correctly to educate our children instead of job protection.
Go to the SPPS web site and the figures are all there.
Chuck, as the executive director of the East Side District 2 Planning Council will have tough questions for the school board or will they be softball questions, as they are all DFL school board members. Jean you may say is Independent, but she has caucused with the DFL for years.
Chuck
Remember that
Governor Pawlenty doesn't steal Much, HE STEAL PAW-LEN-TY .....
Same with every Democrat they seal PAW-LEN-TY TOO!
Now we're back to old style debates Mitch except now, I am a full Jedi and I have returned to finish you off.
And the part Eric's chanting point missed is that it worked. Economist Robert Lindeman of Heritage noted that Reagan's deficits - at least the defense-related ones - more than paid for themselves during the nineties; the extinction of the USSR led to the "peace dividend" which freed up billions in capital and technology which went into the civilian economy; spurred by Reagan's low tax rates (even Bush 41 and Clinton couldn't undo all the good), it set the economy on puree for most of the decade.
---Let's get one thing straight. Deficit spending is not a bad thing in limitations. Specifically like halting a recession/depression long enough to get some control over the economy. It creates a faux safe environment for investing. This is what Reagan did, and exactly what Obama is doing. However, when BushII did it, it was different. The economy was in good enough shape and he used it to fund lopsided tax cuts, growing government programs, subsidzing private industry (Medicare Part D) and funding two wars.
It was irresponsible fiscal management that helped us down the road to another brink of depression. Obama walked into office with a $1.3 trillion deficit -- and projected shortfalls of $8 trillion for the next decade, two wars, unfunded tax cuts and a bloated government. He used deficit spending to stave off the depression and supplied 95% of Americans with tax cuts. Nobody but smokers had their taxes raised.
So Reagan spent in deficit - a tiny fraction of today's deficits, even adjusting for inflation - but cut taxes and set the stage for a huge boom that outlived even his own boom years.
---There was a short boom in the 1980's which blasted us out of the recession. However, the rich got much richer, there was little sustained economic improvement for most Americans. By the late 1980s, middle-class incomes were barely higher than they had been a decade before — and the poverty rate had actually risen. Thanks Ronnie.
Reagan tripled the deficit Mitch. That's right and you know it. We can debate was it necessary or not but the fact is, he tripled it and it was a much bigger chunk of the economy in adjusted dollars.
Reagan also attacked social programs, college loans&grants, energy independence programs, and in true republican style cut the taxes on capital gains (rich) and began taxing unemployment benefits. So if you were an investor making money you were asked to pay less. If you were a blue collar worker who lost is job and was living on unemployment insurance, you were taxed. Thanks Ronnie.
Bring it back Mitch.
Eric
11:32 - You are flat out wrong. When you take the total of all payroll taxes sent to the state of Minnesota from businesses in Saint Paul and/or the total of all income taxes sent in from the City of Saint Paul, we are sending in a heck of a lot more monies than we are getting out.
The point is that cities are creatures of state government. If we get many more ass hole governors like the current one it might be in the public's best interest to unincorporate and turn all of the required services back to the state.
Let the state pay for police, fire, public works, libraries, and on and on and on....
Even though the governor doesn't get it, cities are not foreign countries they are part of the state of Minnesota. The state government is just as responsible for the welfare/safety of a resident of Saint Paul as they are of Hallek yet the dollar in vs dollar out in roads/highway patrol/state services are going to be much higher in the other direction. There hasn't been a state highway built or repaired in a rural area of the state that 50 years of their tax dollars would pay for.
If the state would allow a payroll tax for local municipalities, just the interest off of the monies collected off it could make a significant dent in the budget even if the non-residents got everything collected rebated in April.
I am not advocating that, but I am saying that the state collects monies from US and the services that cities provide are needs of us.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Chuck you have been reading your own playbook. Reducing city spending is the key.
Your not the only one: Check out the State Legislature Web TV sponsored by the non-profit www.edemocracy.org
Sharon,
Per your request is the suspension notice from 2007.
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I regret to announce that earlier today the St. Paul E-Democracy
executive committee voted 5-0 to suspend Sharon Anderson from
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- Hide quoted text -
This action was taken as a result of a history of disruptive behavior
in our forums, including posting false accusations and personal
attacks against members of the forum and forum management.
After many attempts to work with Sharon to resolve these issues, the
Executive Committee has determined that her participation is no
longer in the best interest of the forum or our organization.
The volunteer leadership of the St. Paul Issues Forum, believe
strongly in keeping the forum open to anyone willing to comply with
forum rules, however we always preserve the right to deny individuals
access to our forum if they are unwilling to adhere to those rules
and unwilling to work with us towards resolution of ongoing problems.
NOTE: This is only the 3rd such suspension (long term) in the history
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Hey Sharon, same thing here except we yell at you to knock it off.
Tim Erickson Chair St. Paul E-Democracy Executive Committee said 6:31 AM
E democracy will treat us all the same until some one starts bringing out the trash on the St.Paul City Government or the Democratic Party.
Freedom of speech is not a option in St.Paul, you are guilty until you pay a lawyer enough to find you innocent.
In case something happens to me, got the info out RICO_QuiTam Claims on the City and Countys Abuse of Manatron Taxing, on facebook, twitter Deleting Tax Files by a software priovider is in the millons of recovery
Sheriff Fletcher must investigate
http://www.slideshare.net/Sharon4Anderson/sharons-quitamrico62cv10112manatron
You're on your own Sharon.
Sheriff Fletcher is busy being indicted and supplying cigarettes to his two senior deputies that are prison. He doesn't want them talking.
Eric, before you "finish me off", try to make me break a sweat - rhetorical or otherwise - first.
Now we're back to old style debates Mitch except now, I am a full Jedi and I have returned to finish you off.
"Full Jedi?" What next, a Doctor Who reference?
No, I mean it's forgiveable - the movies (and "West Wing") are the only place where the Democrat vision actually works.
---Let's get one thing straight. Deficit spending is not a bad thing in limitations.
And by that I presume you mean "Within limits?" Sure - although to a conservative the ideal is "to win a war", whereas the left still thinks Keynes is all dreamy, and spends in deficit for pretty much anything.
However, when BushII did it, it was different.
Right, but that's a strawman, and either you know it or you're forgetful; I supported Forbes in 2000 precisely because Bush was a spender. I, like most *real* conservatives, opposed Bush's spending; it's because Republicans spent six years acting like Democrats that their support evaporated in 2006 and 2008.
So you can keep repeating it, but it's not really at issue.
Obama walked into office with a $1.3 trillion deficit -- and projected shortfalls of $8 trillion for the next decade,
Which he has gone on to increase by the greatest rate in history.
two wars...
...for which he's following the Bush/Cheney strategy to the letter. Successfully. Indeed the only success in his administration so far.
On behalf of all us securitycons, you're welcome.
unfunded tax cuts
Well, let's be honest, here; there's no such thing as a "funded" tax cut; there is only "lack of spending cuts". Again - I'm the last person who'll defend Bush's spending; as all us real conservatives note, as re spending he was more a Democrat than Clinton was.
But not more than Obama.
Nobody but smokers had their taxes raised.
You act like tax cuts are a bad thing.
---There was a short boom in the 1980's which blasted us out of the recession.
No, Eric, there was a boom that started in the eighties, went through two brief adjustments (the 1987 S'nL crash and 1990-era retooling from military to civilian production that caused some temporary dislocation), persisted through the nineties, and in a sense really only ended in the past year or two. All economic activity rose, and stayed up, for so long that there's really no separating the Reagan and Clinton booms.
continued...
...
However, the rich got much richer,
So? They also invested that money in numbers never seen before - which was a big part of the "Clinton" boom; all that capital not needed for the Cold War went to building business.
there was little sustained economic improvement for most Americans.
Well, no. That's another lefty chanting point.
I could refer you to a ton of reading you'll never do. But humor me, and start with this piece by Arnold Kling that is as good a debunk as that particular meme has gotten.
poverty rate had actually risen.
Well, no. Your mistake is that yo look at poverty as a static population (which is forgiveable, since the DFL likes it that way; they're predictable constituents).
But we had more immigrants - they tend to start out in poverty. And the fact is, while there were more people in poverty, people stayed in the lowest income quintile less time than they had before. They moved UP faster. That will change under Obama, of course.
Reagan tripled the deficit Mitch. That's right and you know it.
Not only do I know it, I already acknowedged it and noted the reasons for it. It's a little disingenuous of you to state it like it's something I overlooked.
We can debate was it necessary or not but the fact is, he tripled it and it was a much bigger chunk of the economy in adjusted dollars.
Right. And - again - the additional fact is that part of it was the Democrats, who controlled Congress and social spending; the other part was the Cold War, victory in which led to the "Peace Dividend", which led to the longest sustained period of prosperity in US history.
But I already said that. Check up above!
Reagan also attacked social programs,
Social spending didn't shrink under Reagan; it stayed ahead of inflation (according to D'Souza).
college loans&grants,
No, they also stayed well ahead of inflation - which was why tuition rose so much faster than inflation during the 80s.
energy independence programs,
You'll need to get specific. If you're talking about solar energy, it was a bigger waste of money then than it is today.
and in true republican style cut the taxes on capital gains (rich)
Which helped lead to the investiment noted above. You may thank President Reagan again.
Bring it back Mitch.
Brung.
Let me know when you bring some game.
:-)
Oh, yeah - one more chanting point to euthanize:
and in true republican style cut the taxes on capital gains (rich)
Yeah, Eric, maybe when capitalists looked like the guy from the Monopoly game.
But Reagan's tax cuts and deregulation opened equity markets up for private, smaller investors like no other president in history. So Cap Gains don't just affect "the rich"; they affect the middle class. They affect pension funds, 401Ks, home sales, farm sales, and all the different kinds of equity that the middle as well as upper (and not a few working) class people engage in.
So not only is it a chanting point, but it's a good 30-80 years out of date.
If you belong to a union, or have a 401K, your pension fund benefited from Reagan's capgains cuts.
And just so we're clear on this; the current financial debacle was most directly caused by privatizing reward, but socializing risk, AND by declaring businesses "too big to fail", both of which are repudiations of conservative economic policy.
Mitch, Eric is busy spreading the tentacles of socialism. He informed me he would be back soon.
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