From the bowels of E Democracy. City Attorney John Choi wins over Grace Kelly
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posted by Bob at Saturday, October 03, 2009
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Saturday, October 03, 2009
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68 Comments:
From: Grace Kelly *********@earthlink.net>
To: stpaul-issues@forums.e-democracy.org
Sent: Fri, October 2, 2009 2:09:02 PM
Subject: [SPIF] John Choi, the Best Choice for Ramsey County Attorney
I am fully endorsing John Choi for Ramsey County Attorney. In the process of doing research in making the decision about endorsement for this critical local race, I personally tested John Choi's major focus, restorative justice, in my own life and it profoundly changed my life. In reviewing John Choi's work as St Paul city attorney, I find him to be a politically courageous leader who is actively
* improving justice for the economically disadvantaged
* improving justice disparity in racial and in cultural areas
* putting pressure on corporations to act better in foreclosures
* holding to the same standards of justice in processing all cases despite political pressure
* using foresight to improve our St Paul budget problems
* being open to the public and the press, including citizen journalists like me
* willing to meet with citizen groups that in a dialog that was openly critical instead of staying inside of a comfortable shell of communication
* using restorative justice actively to improve our community
Indeed John Choi's work is now a model for other cities. International Municipal Lawyers Association is giving John Choi a major Joseph I. Mulligan Jr. Distinguished Public Service Award in October. This is a story where you will want to follow the details:
John Choi is actively making justice better for the economically disadvantaged. The justice system is usually a Catch-22 system where people who can't pay are caught in downward spiral. The lack of ability to pay fines causes them to lose driving privileges and to lose access to jobs, which further reduces their ability to pay the fines. John Choi set up the driver diversion program so people can still drive while making payments.
John Choi is actively making justice better for different racial groups and different cultural groups. My cultural norm is treat the police with extreme courtesy. In some cultures, defending one's friends and one's family, even in the case of police, is considered the honorable way to be. Police can take that defense and make it a charge of Obstruction of Legal Process, a catch all charge. John Choi worked on actively changing the processes and procedures of both the police and his office to reduce the number of Obstruction of Legal Process charges from 568 in 2006 to 399 in 2008, a 30% improvement. John Choi even monitored the other catch all charge of Disorderly Conduct to ensure that it stayed constant. This is the real hard work of making government better.
John Choi is actively developing and using local and national foreclosure strategies to put pressure on corporations to treat people better in foreclosures and to recycle vacant houses faster. He is working with the "Multi-City Working Group on Foreclosures," a coalition of 20 cities acting together to gain political power and to share legal strategies that are working.
John Choi has had strong political pressure to hurry up the processing of cases from Republican National convention. John Choi has explained that it would not be fair to all the other cases in his office, for these cases to be given priority. And indeed he has totally resisted pressure to change his standards or processes for Republican National convention cases. This is a unique resistance to political pressure. For once an act being done at a political event is being treated the same as an act at a sporting event.
Normally cities self insure when it involves police actions, which the recent stories about Minneapolis payouts demonstrate. John Choi recommended and instituted the purchase of a $10 million insurance policy for the Republican National Convention. While I and others did see this act as giving more encouragement to police misconduct, I also must admit that the history of security events makes this an eminently practical decision that will save St Paul a huge amount of money.
Both before and after the Republican National Convention, John Choi has been open to the public and the press, including citizen journalists like me. John Choi was part of the six community meetings before the convention. I have had two interviews with John Choi since the convention. Last night, I saw John Choi speak before the "St Paul Citizens for Justice" group, that had many tough questions for him. Normally I would expect a politician to stay in a safe shell away from a possible critical group. John Choi spoke from the heart in an open way that really impressed this group and frankly healed relationships and trust.
The other three candidates for Ramsey county attorney are all excellent lawyers, with demonstrated community helping projects that are impressive. All the other candidates did speak eloquently of defending civil rights and "one justice for all". Yet when questioned, all of the other candidates admitted that he or she had not taken any political leadership on the biggest issue before Ramsey country attorney's office this year - the Republican National Convention. Each one admitted that he or she had not given a speech nor even written a letter-to-the-editor about a Republican National Convention issue before he or she started campaigning. I find that to be an incredible lack of courage and leadership at time when our community needed such leadership. So John Choi stands out for actually having led in this difficult time, when his actions were highly critiqued, while all the other candidates stayed safely quiet.
In my interview with John Choi, he spoke of how bringing victims, police, offenders and all of the players together in a open hearted sharing of views transforms the people involved and transforms the community. This is restorative justice. Indeed John Choi says that his restorative justice experiences have made him more fully aware how life transforming an experience with the police and his department can be. As a consequence, John is more committed to improving the entire process.
I like to test every new idea. So I set out to test the idea of restorative justice. I don't have the same opportunity that John Choi has. So I set out to do a number of one on one interviews that focused more on dialog and discussion instead of just information gathering. In restorative justice, the topics are emotionally charged so I chose an emotional subject for me, the Republican National Convention. I have reported these discussions in articles here before, but this time I want to focus on the changes that happened to me - the transformational aspects of this type of dialog.
I talked with Nigel Parry in a phone interview and in a long note discussion. I admire Nigel Parry because of his extraordinary collection of Republican National Convention documents. I was surprised by some of directions and judgments of Nigel Parry's thinking that was not revealed by his reporting. Nigel Parry challenged the way that I report, since I was reporting the flow of the conversation more than the "he said, she said" style of reporting. That type of reporting would feel to me in this context as more of "gotcha" reporting that is polarizing, that fixes people in place instead displaying the evolution of conversational change. It was a very good point and still has me contemplating what kind of reporter I am.
Matt Bostrom is the Assistant Chief of the St Paul Police, who had major portion of decision making power at Republican National Convention. To say that I have been critical of police actions at the Republican National Convention is an understatement. So I was surprised that Matt Bostrom did agree to an interview, even allowing me the location of my favorite coffee shop. Despite my best intentions, I was at times very contentious, which I am still apologizing for. However, Matt Bostrom was very patient and open. So I ended up rethinking all of the decisions from his perspective. While I still could not always agree with decisions, I found that I could respect those decisions. Matt Bostrom was also very open to looking for better ways and being an advocate for change. OK, I even challenged him on this, asking for citations and studies, which he later sent. There is a huge sense of inner relief in me about feeling able to trust the St Paul police again. In spite of myself and t
o my immense surprise, I now have a deep respect for Matt Bostrom and the work that he does. I trust his leadership at any large event, like the Obama healthcare event that we just had.
The next interview was with Mike McIntee, from the Uptake, a person I have often worked with. Yet this was the first time that I had ever gone beyond work conversations with Mike. Mike was not as affected by the Republican National convention intimidation for he has covered wars. Mike is deeply committed to the government being transparent. His perspectives caused me to think about how I would have judged the Republican National Convention if the intimidation factor had been totally removed? How would I have judged the broken windows and dropped sandbags if that had happened at my local Grand Old Days parade? I felt that my next article was infinitely better for these challenges.
I am not done with the planned interviews, yet even my test in restorative justice has truly changed me and my writing. So I wonder if in some way, we could do restorative justice on whole political communities. OK, I admit this test is way more than most people do before an endorsement. However I wanted to not just blindly assume that something worked.
With this experience, I definitely endorse restorative justice and the restorative justice advocate, John Choi, for Ramsey County attorney.
Grace Kelly nicknamed Kelly
Not acting very curmudgeonly today at Merriam Park
Grace (nicknamed Kelly) Kelly
Merriam Park, St Paul
Info about Grace Kelly (nicknamed Kelly): http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/gracekelly
Grace said of Choi, * being open to the public and the press, including citizen journalists like me
My response;
Mr. Choi, this is an open invitation from property rights advocates to a round table discussion on housing in Saint Paul right here at A Democracy Town Hall. :)
I will forward Mr. Choi a formal invitation.
...and I'll let him know that coming here is a waste of time with a group that has already made its mind up about him and and other high profile public employees.
Eric
Eric, I remember you were against Kathy Lantry participating in a Round Table Discussion on housing here. She did it anyway. I believe she had courage, gained respect from many, and surely the round table may of BENFITTED her. Just my opinion! One thing for sure, her participation here greatly diminished the venom that was once directed at her here.
In my opinion, this town hall has done a good job of exposing the truth in housing and the fact is most people don't give a damn about the civil rights violations because these violations have happened to a certain class of citizens deemed undesirable. Many citizens support the city's questionable tactics.
Doesn't make it right Eric.
Grace Kelly, ACE reporter said: "Nigel Parry challenged the way that I report, since I was reporting the flow of the conversation more than the "he said, she said" style of reporting."
Translation: He said her incoherent babbling and tortured use of the English language makes his head hurt.
Eric, I remember you were against Kathy Lantry participating in a Round Table Discussion on housing here. She did it anyway. I believe she had courage, gained respect from many, and surely the round table may of BENFITTED her. Just my opinion! One thing for sure, her participation here greatly diminished the venom that was once directed at her here.
Have you lost what left of your mind Bob? What blog are you reading? 90%, that's 9 out of 10 posts on here has negative remarks either about Lantry directly, or the entire council.
I, and others, advised her against wasting her time and that it wouldn't do anything. Thanks to your loyal cowards, they started on her as soon as you opened the comments back up.
For those who don't know, Bob had to shut down the comment section while Mitch asked the questions. As soon as Bob opened the comment section back, they were back with the same, or worse vitriolic, sexist language tapping into the same accusations of conspiracy and corruption with the same void of evidence or truth.
Choi is winning awards for his management skills from non-political organizations, and winning political support for higher office. Why come here to the junkyard and talk with some of the most mis-informed people who know how to type?
Especially, when anyone can go back and see what Lantry or Helgen has gained by participating here- nothing.
John Choi is doing great and will continue do himself well be ignoring those who want to close their eyes, plug their ears and kick dirt on everyone.
Eric
Made up our minds Eric? Many of us made up our minds based on hard facts and evidence brought out in the lawsuits agianst the city and the personal knowledge many of us have either frist hand or from folks we know who own property.......landlords and homesteaders alike. St. Paul is up to it's eyeballs in corruption and you know it you fake.
Eric, you would seek to deny Mr. Choi the entertainment you find here? :) Your selfish!
Eris said;
Have you lost what left of your mind Bob? What blog are you reading? 90%, that's 9 out of 10 posts on here has negative remarks either about Lantry directly, or the entire council.
My response;
Once again. Eric, before Kathy participated in the round table the venom directed at her here was vicious. I was deleting derogatory comments directed at her constantly for a long period of time. I haven't had to do that since the round table.
Kathy isn't liked by many property rights advocates for her position on housing, but she has earned a grudging respect facing them and attempting to answer their questions.
Eric said;
For those who don't know, Bob had to shut down the comment section while Mitch asked the questions. As soon as Bob opened the comment section back, they were back with the same, or worse vitriolic, sexist language tapping into the same accusations of conspiracy and corruption with the same void of evidence or truth.
My response;
Folks, judge for yourself don't take Eric's word for it. Here is a link to the Round Table
Please understand that some citizens have lost a great deal over issue of housing in Saint Paul. Some who participate here have very high emotions they lost their security and families and sometimes they say things they normally wouldn't say. The round table is a very informative discussion on housing. This town hall has done a good job of discussing the complexities of housing issues in Saint Paul.
Eric said no evidence. There has been plenty of witness testimony and exhibits posted here over the years. I will remind everyone Morris vs Sax's didn't win in lower level courts. The fair housing lawsuits against the city of Saint Paul are going all the way to the supreme court if need be.
Eric said;
Choi is winning awards for his management skills from non-political organizations, and winning political support for higher office.
My response;
I am happy for Mr. Choi on his accomplisments. I hope he fixed his car port before he moved it was a danger to the community in that state of disrepair.
Eric said;
Why come here to the junkyard and talk with some of the most mis-informed people who know how to type?
My response;
Fortunately around here your opinion is taken with a grain of salt. :)
Eric said;
Especially, when anyone can go back and see what Lantry or Helgen has gained by participating here- nothing.
My response;
Eric, Eric, Eric, I know you feel like you are in a bubble here in such small numbers of like minded people. You continually ignore the silent masses as if they didn't exists who may or may not agree with you and are reading. They are here Eric participating in the town hall THOUSANDS OF citizens Eric!
Before you get into that spiel that only 9 people read and participate here I will have you know that last month there was over 4000 hits on the googles ads. How many people read and never link an ad Eric? I know of 4 major law firms who read this blog daily. But then again you and I both know the interest this town hall has gained from city employees.
Eric said;
John Choi is doing great and will continue do himself well be ignoring those who want to close their eyes, plug their ears and kick dirt on everyone.
My response;
Very bad advice to ignore citizens who have issues Eric.
Folks please read the following link concerning government engaging angry citizens.
John I know you are participating as a lurker here. I personally want to thank you and your office for what you have done for my family. My abusive drunken relative has turned a new page in life and your office was instrumental.
I would be honored if you would join us here for a discussion on housing. I promise I will select respectable well know participants to join you.
Eric and CHuck don't recocnize facts and evidence unless it benifets their side. Otherwise they operate on the theory that if you tell the lie often enough people will start believing it.
Mr. Choi,
I'd like to invite you to participate.
It's true - there are people on this forum who've made up their minds, some of whom express their opinions in ugly, crude ways.
Eric and Chuck are two of them; they seem to clutch their pearls and cry because they don't believe many of us are angry for a *reason*; naturally, they figure everyone *else* is wrong.
Nonetheless, there IS some signal behind all the noise. I get a lot of valuable information here; the debate with Ms. Lantry, while it got fairly intense, was very interesting reading. (Not that it made me support her).
I'm not leaving my name, as I fear reprisals from the city for being involved in this sort of thing.
A Democracy is the best.
E Democracy gets money above the table.
Hmm!
Let's see, E-Democracy which has decorum rules, real people with names and neighborhoods,intelligent and inquisitive discussion or;
A-Democracy where conspiracy rules, city employees/officials are assumed to be corrupt, they rally around some of the worst property owners in the city, Bill Dahn curse on a baseless rant, anonymous cowardly posters calling you names and are fighting a debate that has already been dismissed from a federal court.
No brainer.
Eric
ps- John knows Chuck and I well enough and long enough to not believe a single false word that you anonymous cowards put out here. Besides, he doesn't waste his time reading this tripe.
Oh- A-Democracy is given money too.
Bob, why don't you tell them who gives money to support this blog, you've written about here in the past. It would be nice if you properly followed the law and disclosed that information.
The difference is that E-Democracy is set up as a real international organization that is formed as a non-profit. They actually have rules and laws to follow, enforced by the Attorney General. Its easy to find out who donates.
There is no comparability between the two. This is a blog, where responsibility for what is said is non-existent. Why would a public official, who is accountable for everything they say, participate in this hostile environment?
They wouldn't and won't.
Eric
Eric is E D's big Da
Eric, this town hall has done a public service in exposing E-Democracy for what they really are. And since we took them to task here they have been feverishly attempting to live down the exposed truth.
What can anyone expect from a REAL town hall like A Democracy? Exactly what you would expect at any neighborhood meeting or town hall gathering. Angry citizens venting their concerns. In Eric's world if you are an angry citizen with a bitch about the city you are shouted down, made to look stupid or painted as a conspirator. Just like they do over at E-Democracy.
Presently, I think E-Democracy has found it's nitch, speaking of harmless subjects like wildlife in the city, tree trimming and garbage hauling.
And Eric, the regulars here are down right civil compared to the posters at twincities.com and you can bet most here have a much bigger ax to grind with the city.
Why would a public official, who is accountable for everything they say, participate in this hostile environment?
They wouldn't and won't.
Eric
My response;
Speaking of politicians and wanna be politicians. They have and they will participate here! Even to lurk here is participating.
"You can't ignore a public venue that is"
1. A non bias venue that openly discusses politicians and issues that concern us. (many property investors are dflers Eric)
2. This one is important- You cannot ignore a public venue that has a "history" of expending resources to build participation here.
Eric, this town hall has done a public service in exposing E-Democracy for what they really are. And since we took them to task here they have been feverishly attempting to live down the exposed truth.
To quote Shakespeare's Hamlet: "To Thine Own Self, Be True"
Bob, Bob, Bob. E-Democracy has expanded to New Zealand, 9 locations in Great Britain, Illinois, New Mexico, Ohio, about 20 different forums in Minnesota and another 20 specialty forums across the country.
(Its also won several civic awards)
Yep- you showed them.
--
What can anyone expect from a REAL town hall like A Democracy? Exactly what you would expect at any neighborhood meeting or town hall gathering. Angry citizens venting their concerns. In Eric's world if you are an angry citizen with a bitch about the city you are shouted down, made to look stupid or painted as a conspirator. Just like they do over at E-Democracy.
Bob, in my world I've chaired many a meetings with angry citizens and the only way to sift through the yelling and accusations is to have some order and accountability. Two things that are missing here.
For your people who thought I was a bully, omit that we had order, I never shut anyone down, and we always came to a solution.
Presently, I think E-Democracy has found it's nitch, speaking of harmless subjects like wildlife in the city, tree trimming and garbage hauling.
What you call e-democracy is actually SPIF which one forum of over 50 that makes up E-Democracy. Its about city specific issues and those are current things people want to talk about. They are also discussing Grace's post as well as long examination of IRV and what it could mean for St Paul. Again, city related issues that are germane to daily life.
And Eric, the regulars here are down right civil compared to the posters at twincities.com and you can bet most here have a much bigger ax to grind with the city.
Another forum where anonymous posters are free pollute the discussion. Notice where people have to sign in and be accountable there is a much more civil exchange? Views actually get heard.
Bob, Bob, Bob. Comparing yourself to Twincities.com instead of one of dozens of blogs says a lot about what you really think of what happens here. You know what I said is true. Anyway, its still good to see that no one can whip up the frenzy around here like me.
This place was dead for a while.
You can send me my check at the end of the month.
Eric
Eric I accidentally deleted your comment and reposted it. I was editing my post and had my grandson in my lap and wasn't focusing on what I was doing here.
If I could afford to pay you and Chuck I would! :)
And thank you for making the clarification between SPIF and E-Democracy. I should have stated "SPIF". (Saint Paul Issues and Forums)
So let's say that this forum IS too, er, "animated" for Mr. Choi and other public officials.
Let's also say - since it's the truth - that SPIF is a vapid echo chamber; plenty of people (Bob and Swiftee among many others) have shown that the "rules of decorum" are very unevenly enforced, that pro-DFL bias reigns, and that the "forum" is a vapid DFL echo chamber (which is exactly what they wanted; check back to the "Survey" they did back in 2007).
So would Mr. Choi and others be interested in having a discussino or debate in a forum more known for both civility AND actually mattering? There are plenty of them out there, on all sides of the aisle; Uptake, True North, or one of any number of forums that may be more measured than ADemocracy, but unlike SPIF actually matter?
I'm asking partly because I'd love to see candidates in this one-party city actually have to confront dissent, and partly to see if Eric can answer a question without sniffing down his nose at an uppity peasant.
11:40 - in the last two weeks someone called me an attack dog on edemocracy and didn't get a warning, but a month earlier the entire place went nuts when I said, there are lies, there are big lies and then there is IRV.
So, the less than equal enforcement has something to do with perceived thickness of skin I suspect.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Who called you an "attack dog", Chuck?
A DFLer?
If it'd been a Repubican, they've have gotten warned and/or suspended. That's how SPIF and the rest of ED have always operated.
Chuck,
Do you actually believe that Tom Swift, Paul Kuettel and Bob Johnson are thin-skinned?
Interesting.
"intelligent and inquisitive discussion"
HAHAHAHA...really? At e-democracy? Oh, cripes I better go check and see what I've been missing...wait just a minute.
Instant run off voting on youtube
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Peacemaker Heroes of Republican National Convention (by Grace "oh my aching head" Kelly)
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Peregrine Falcon in my back yard
----
Twin Cities Marathon this Sunday
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Finance reporting problems - FairVote and Better Ballot Campaigns
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Help with small animal inside (where it doesn't belong!)
-----
Sounding the Train Horn at Railroad Crossings
-----
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh, yeah...I can see where an "intelligent, inquisitive guy would get mesmerized discussing all those scintillating topics with the scary smart ilk of Chuck Repke!
HAHAHAHAHAHA..you're a funny guy, Eric.
My e-democracy welcome was rescinded right after I stuck a big, red, "LIAR" flag into Ann Carrol's tin foil hat and then had the audacity to post documents that proved it....misappropriation of money from the public schools and then lying about it isn't as much fun to discuss as the marathon, I guess.
From the comments, I see the same 10 barking moonbats are still there letting the drool run out of their mouths...man am I jealous!
Swiftee said...
"LIAR" flag
My e-democracy welcome was rescinded right after I stuck a big, red, "LIAR" flag into Ann Carrol's tin foil hat and then had the audacity to post documents that proved it....misappropriation of money from the public schools and then lying about it isn't as much fun to discuss as the marathon, I guess.
Swiftee Tell us more about the misappropriation of funds.
Swiftee,
That's the only kind of discussion the DFL swine who run this city can handle - nice and tame. That, or they act like Eric and call people names and run away.
11:40 am said;
So would Mr. Choi and others be interested in having a discussion or debate in a forum more known for both civility AND actually mattering? There are plenty of them out there, on all sides of the aisle; Uptake, True North, or one of any number of forums that may be more measured than A Democracy, but unlike SPIF actually matter?
My response;
I really didn't expect Mr. Choi to come here folks. I didn't even send him an invitation. I was having some fun. :)
Choi isn't a dummy. I am confident for legal reasons Mr. Choi would have to decline participating in a round table here. Every word he uttered would be dissected by attorneys seeking to drain the city's coffers.
I highly doubt Choi's handlers like Eric would allow him to address anyone other than their voting base. Why upset the apple cart with another perspective?
Low blow Bob.
Eric
So, the less than equal enforcement has something to do with perceived thickness of skin I suspect.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
12:05 PM
Chuck,
Do you actually believe that Tom Swift, Paul Kuettel and Bob Johnson are thin-skinned?
Interesting.
12:16 PM
You can add Mitch Berg and John Krenik to this list.
Thin skinned? lol!
I have talked with Swift, Berg and Kuettel before he died about this.
I wouldn't call them "thin-skinned". Dissent didnt' phase them. All of them knew they gave much worse than they got, and they all knew they were suspended or banned pretty much for doing things that DFLers get away with all the time. When I talked with them at a MOB party a few years ago (2006?) they all laughed about it. I think they were pretty much the opposite of thinskinned. You'd have to ask Krenick and Bob.
I relish dissent! The proof is right here at this town hall.
"Dissenting voices here are highly regarded". For years I debated at Yahoo's political forums, I was in the minority of dissenting voices there and at SPIF. To continue on at these Liberal forums I had to constantly remind myself that there was silent lurkers who side with me. I know what it is like for Eric and Chuck to participate here. Even with thick skin it isn't a cake walk. Some issues are very emotional and close to the heart.
I have laughed with others for exposing SPIF for who they are. :) Honestly though, I don't think SPIF is anything to laugh about. It was and still is a deceitful organization with ulterior motives. I consider them a threat to the principles that have made this country great. For SPIF to be true to their charter and the community they should have 2 separate elections for their board of directors. One where liberals vote and one where conservatives vote. 4 libs and 4 conservatives.
I have pondered filing a non profit status for A Democracy. If I ever go non profit, the board of directors here would be folks who have a totally different perspective of issues.
Is SPIF an asset to the citizens of this city or the DFL party? I think this answer is clear. They made their bed over there, now they can lay in that excrement. Personally, I don't play in sh*t and will not grace my presents at that forum ever again.
When the blue bloods of SPIF got rid of the flamboyant voices of dissent like me, Tom, Mitch and others they turned that forum into a beehive of like minded buzz
In all fairness, I have many fond memories of my participation at SPIF.
Here is a few-
I won't mention any names but,
There is the time-
a fellow member over there was personally attacking me and the Watchdog Newspaper for standing up for property and civil rights. He didn't agree with our opinion so he attacked me and the paper personally. Personal attacks is against the rules at that forum. But I didn't complain. And apparently there was those in upper levels of management of the forum who took delight in libs ribbing me. No sweat off my back, remember I was a seasoned conservative veteran of the abuses at the yahoo libs political forums. I didn't get mad. I GOT EVEN! :) For me getting even is spreading the truth.
How many of you remember the BARKING DOGS topic I posted at SPIF?
I had through my activism became responsible for distribution of the Watchdog Newspaper in Saint Paul. For those of you who don't know the Watchdog is a property rights/civil rights guardian paper.
I also dubbed the paper the "Barking Dogs".
Back to getting even.
This guy broke the rules of the forum and attacked me and others for what we believed to be a truth. There must be retribution!
I must first say, I personally liked this guy. We had many private emails back and forth.
I called my distribution labor, 4 guys! We loaded the Mercury with thousands of BARKING DOGS (Watchdog Newspapers)! The truth as told by victims of housing issues in Saint Paul. I distributed the newspapers to this members home and thousands of his neighbors. I wasn't going to let him get away with spreading his opposition of our pleat to his neighbors without them having the other side of the story.
I often done this to loud mouths who attacked me and the opinion of those I support. Brought me great pleasure. :)
After I quit the Watchdog I started my own rag. The A Democracy News Letter. I have poor grammar and sometimes I don't spell so good but I got it out there often. Haven't done so in awhile.
There is the topic I posted at SPIF of-
"Do birds fall in love".
Absolutely has to be one of SPIF's most touching wildlife stories.
Right up there with Steven Clift squirrel.:)
I Remember when "B.S." <-- no joke :) got angry with me because I deflated his theory on the O Zone. By posting a link to the guru who discovered the O Zone. I thought it was funny because so many were often trying to paint me as a dummy because they didn't like my opinion.
Actually folks, this uneducated hillbilly had a lot of fun taking those self proclaimed creme of the croppers to the wood shed! :)
Chuck, if I was thinned skinned I wouldn't of participated at the yahoo boards, SPIF, or here. But you know that. NOBODY can spin the merry go round faster than you Chuck. :)
I made a few friends there and it is to bad they fear being admonished just for befriending me. That is sad!
I want to also say when my son was completing his final home school assignment, building a lawn care/snow shoveling company, it wasn't property investors who gave him a hand. It was politically connected DFLers. I'm very grateful to ALL of you who had a hand in helping him.
And in the same token, I have lost work from people I support because they fear retaliation from the city if they hire me. I'm a pariah. It hasn't stopped me from doing what I believe is right!
I have no bad feelings for anyone. All of us are in the good fight whether you voice your opinion publically or do it in the voting booth. And if you don't partiscipate in politics in some kind of way you aren't a responsible citizen. PERIOD!
Misappropriation short story.
Saint Paul Public schools funneled money to moonbat PAC "Progressive Minnesota"
Swiftee finds out and publicizes that fact.
School board member Anne Carroll says Swiftee is a liar; says money was for "Latino Outreach" (It's for teh childern!)
Swiftee posts documents obtained from SPPS that prove Anne knows all about lying (they had Carroll's greasy fingerprints all over them).
Carroll sinks back into the sewer she calls home and crawls into a big jug of kool-aid.
Moonbat echo chamber erupts in outrage at loss of Carroll's participation.
Swiftee gets the boot from e-democracy.
Thomas Swift was not kicked off for exposing a group. He set his self up with his own actions:
After reviewing your history in the St. Paul
Issues Forum, we have come to the conclusion that you
do have a history of inflammatory and abusive behavior
that warrants special attention, above and beyond the
warnings and responses taken by the St. Paul Issues
Forum Manager.
While we acknowledge the legitimate point that you
were trying to make with this particular post, we
strongly object to the inflammatory means by which you
made your point and recognize a pattern of such
behavior which warrants removal from ALL
E-Democracy.Org forums for a period of at least 1
year.
Over the last 4 years, we have observed your record of
disruptive and inflammatory comments including:
1) Unfounded accusations of illegal behavior,
without evidence to support it, of several members of
the forum.
2) The use of unnecessarily vulgar language to make
a point. For example "fisting" and "barebacking."
3) Ongoing and unnecessary attacks and insults
directed at several forum members.
4) Inflammatory and threatening offline exchanges
with several members of SPIF.
5) A pattern of sarcastic and insulting comments
aimed at all those with whom you politically disagree.
In the interest of "open discussion" and in
consideration of the "context" of some of these
behaviors, we have exhibited a great deal of tolerance
and patience. However, in light of this ongoing
pattern of behavior, we have come to the conclusion
that your participation in E-Democracy.Org forums is
disruptive to the goals of our organization.
You are hereby suspended from any participation in any
E-Democracy.Org forum for at least one year beginning
January 4, 2006.
And as noted elsewhere, almost every accusation against Swiftee was made, and made many more times, against DFL and Green members of the forum, with no action taken *at all*.
Examples:
1) Unfounded accusations of illegal behavior,
without evidence to support it, of several members of
the forum.
Grace Kelly and Charley Underwood floated any number of baseless conspiracy theories against Republicans, and either never provided evidence, or ran and hid when it was shown the evidence was bullshit.
Never a word spoken. In fact, Kelly became an "esecutive board" member.
2) The use of unnecessarily vulgar language to make
a point. For example "fisting" and "barebacking."
OK, Swiftee had that one pretty much to himself :-)
3) Ongoing and unnecessary attacks and insults
directed at several forum members.
Andy Driscoll, Mark Ash, Andew Hine, Guy Western and Bill Kahn did every bit as much personal insulting as Swiftee, usually with less content behind it.
Mitch Berg sent up the forum for allowing Andy Driscoll to write something like "When will people stop believeing Mitch Berg" in a post. And nothing more. If that wasn't unnecessary and insuiliting, I don't know what is.
4) Inflammatory and threatening offline exchanges
with several members of SPIF.
Swiftee was hardly alone. He was just the only conservative who did it.
5) A pattern of sarcastic and insulting comments
aimed at all those with whom you politically disagree.
Andrew Hine, Guy Western, Mark Ash, Charlie Underwood were all worst than Swiftee, and none of them ever got suspended.
The SPIF forum, is, was and always will be a joke.
Guy Western, Marc Ash, Eva Young and Andy Driscoll were suspended. None decided to write regularly after their suspension.
Charlie Underwood, Eric Mitchell, Renee Jensen and Martin Owings were are all given final warnings. Renee and Owings chose to leave permanently, Mr Mitchell cursed and left temporarily.
Swift, Berg and Bob Johnson were not kicked out. They were suspended and choose to make it permanent.
"Everyone knows that facts have a liberal bias."
I can add to this.
IF you brought up issues controversial to the DFL you were subjected to a investigation of your identity.
I had a lot of fun with their desperation to find out who I was. I knew nobody would believe I was a real Bob Johnson. Even had my picture published on the cover of the Watchdog Newspaper standing next to a tree at a property rights protest. I emailed a number of hard core SPIFers and told them where they could get a paper and to see the pic for themselves. The image was darkened! lol...
Now I know how Laura Ingalls felt toying with Nelly. Say does anyone over there have any fun since we left?
I gotta add, when I think of Bill Kahn, the first thing that comes to mind is a snob who gets away with a lot of crap at SPIF because he sings the kiss ass song and dance the core over there want to hear.
"In Eric's world if you are an angry citizen with a bitch about the city you are shouted down, made to look stupid or painted as a conspirator. Just like they do over at E-Democracy."
I'm a landlord and went to a meeting at the District Council nad just as Bob says, I was shouted down and made to look like a fool. Keep giving them hell Bob.
I agree that Swiftee deserves special treatment. Roll out the red carpet for him Bob. I'll believe a guy any day who just says it like it is and lets the chips fall where they may over some of these slickster types who want to constantly distort facts and evidence with lies and deceit.
Also Bob with regards to the Edemocracy thing I belive you forgot to tell the folks how there were threating notes being attached to your front door when you were in the thick of things over at Edem. Did you forget about that or am I confusing it with something else?
Also Bob with regards to the Edemocracy thing I belive you forgot to tell the folks how there were threating notes being attached to your front door when you were in the thick of things over at Edem. Did you forget about that or am I confusing it with something else?
12:42 AM
My response;
You bet there was threats left on my door. There was several attempts to intimidate me.
I usually lurk, but I figured I'd chime in here:
"Swift, Berg and Bob Johnson were not kicked out. They were suspended and choose to make it permanent."
Which is a nice bit of plausible deniability on EDem's part. It's not the whole story, of course.
It's been noted here that there was a big double standard on SPIF. My favorite example, which someone mentioned earlier in the thread, was Andy Driscoll writing a post that said, in its entirety, "When will people stop getting sucked in by Berg's irrational illogic". No evidence, mind you, much less anything related to Saint Paul - just an ad-hominem.
So I wrote Rick Mons. Who replied "It's just Andy's opinion", and did nothing.
But I got suspended for calling RNC demonstrators who were planning to inflict mayhem on Saint Paul, "scumbags". As a group, not as individuals! And that was after documenting that they were, in fact, not nice people!
So - Driscoll's ad-hominem, fact-free, and unrelated to Saint Paul "opinion" was perfectly acceptable - but mine, while backed up with quotes from protester leaders and their plans, even though it didn't refer to any actual people by name, was grounds for suspension?
It's not like SPIF abjured inflammatory namecalling, either. Chuck - did Rick ever talk to you about calling Governor Pawlenty a murderer? No? Just checking.
So yes, after that suspension I gave up on SPIF, and all EDem forums. Not because I was "thin-skinned" - I started on EDem as one of the very few conservatives in 1995, and if I had a "thin skin", it sure took me a long time to notice. Partly it was because of the double standard. Partly it was because Rick Mons said he'd let me back on in two weeks, but he'd "moderate" (censor) me - and I'm sorry, but I'll never let any DFL hamster censor me.
But I gave up on the forums long before that. I first quit in 2003 because I found blogging a lot more rewarding - while listserves stroke the DFLer's innate hive mentality, blogs reward conservatives' innate independence. I signed up for SPIF again in 2006, I think, when someone asked me to; they thought my perspective would be useful.
You know what was really the final straw? EDem ran a "survey" a few years back. And the results they chose to highlight were pretty conspicuous; they wanted a "safe place" with less "arguing"; they alleged that a high school class had thought about joining the forum, but changed their mind when they saw actual differences of opinion being heatedly discussed. Some of the executive board - Grace Kelly - started pointedly hinting that dissent was just fine, as long as it didn't make DFLers sad in any way. Even people who disagreed vehemently with my politics wrote me offline saying "they're trying to set you up to throw you off the forum".
That'd be those "standards" and all that "Decorum" Eric and Chuck were talking about, I guess.
(to be continued)
The forums hadn't had any real integrity in well over a decade, by this point. The way they railroaded Bob off the forum was a classic example. I took the suspension as a good opportunity to chuck the whole thing and focus on the blog. And I haven't missed it a bit. I can't imagine Swiftee or John or Bob do, either.
So did they finally suspend Guy Western and Andy Driscoll and Marc Asch? Well, what do they want, a cookie? If it happened, it happened after over a decade of naked favoritism during which each of them got away with the kind of murder that got every single spirited conservative voice ousted from the forums.
Look, God bless 'em. Let them have their little party. Not only do I have a lot more fun on the blog and doing my show, but I actually facilitate a much better debate among all sides than EDem does, or ever did. My show's interviews with RT Rybak, Dane Smith, Jon Van Hecke and other liberals are models of how dialogue across the aisle should be done.
EDem, on the other hand, shows us what not to do.
"Everyone knows that crack addiction, urban crime and existential despair have a liberal bias."
Threats, on your door?
C'mon Bob, really?
You and I got into a fight. I didn't threaten, I challenged you, which pushed me to a short suspension or warning or whatever. I decided not to post for a while anyway. You decided to appeal the decision, got mad somehow during the process and decided to quit altogether.
Mitch, popped in once in a while for the purpose of seeing how far he could go. I remember the discussion quite well. he never had any intention other then giving the middle finger to the forum.
Swiftee had a lot of problems. The least being his political views. If you are going to act like Bill Dahn on a steroid rage, then don't expect to be treated like everyone else when you come down.
--------------
I'm a landlord and went to a meeting at the District Council nad just as Bob says, I was shouted down and made to look like a fool. Keep giving them hell Bob.
You were not a my District Council meeting. There are 17 in the city. We didn't have free for all A-Democracy type, meetings. Board members did not shout down neighbors and order was called and enforced if members started to shout over each other. Rather I was with you or thought you to be some nut, I aggressively pushed for participation and everyone got their say in- nicely or loud and angry.
This blog is just getting sad. Sad, sad, sad.
Eric
Eric - you're clairvoyant!
Mitch, popped in once in a while for the purpose of seeing how far he could go. I remember the discussion quite well. he never had any intention other then giving the middle finger to the forum.
You should take your mind-reading act on the road to Vegas!
Seriously, dude - totally wrong. I came to engage on the issues. Now, I can see how a lot of people, used the whole "one-party town" thing and having never had to face articulate opposition, might have no frame of reference to think of it as anything other than "nothing but giving a middle finger", but that's their (your?) problem, not mine.
Ditto if you really think I had nothing better to do with my time from 1995-2003 and 2--6-2008. I provided spirited, but articulate and *personally* respectful dissent from the hive. Some found that threatening.
Tough.
Anyway, Eric - wrong. Just...wrong.
Mitch,
I would think you'd know me a little bit better than to think I seek the comfort of like minds in a discussion forum.
What I'm trying to convey is in that last stretch of yours on SPIF, I found myself reading your posts with a feeling that you were done and could care less about staying within the rules. I say this again, not because I'm a mind reader but because more than anyone on this blog, I have been reading your stuff and debating with you for for 13 years.
While something said during the RNC discussion may have been the topic, you were laying it out about the forum, its structure and moderators.
I'm right, right, right (but Left) about that.
Eric
Eric,
I would think you'd know me a little bit better than to think I seek the comfort of like minds in a discussion forum.
Yes, but I wasn't referring strictly to you, either.
What I'm trying to convey is in that last stretch of yours on SPIF, I found myself reading your posts with a feeling that you were done and could care less about staying within the rules.
At a number of points - like after Bob's expulsion and when "management" started talking about content restrictions - I tested the rules. You bet.
While something said during the RNC discussion may have been the topic, you were laying it out about the forum, its structure and moderators.
Well, yeah - at one point, I thought groups like EDem had some redeeming value; I have a lot of regard for Steven Clift and his mission, as far as that goes.
But there's a case to be made that a lot of bias is built into the structure of EDem. And when I say "to be made", I should add "...but not by me", since did in fact give up on the whole thing.
And I've had people who are not political cohorts of mine write to tell me I was right; the "discussion" is basically monochome and dull as dry toast these days. Que sera.
I'm right, right, right (but Left) about that.
Well, you have a point, have a point, have a point (and are being autobiographical).
Which is a far cry from "giving a big middle finger the whole time", I think.
"1)Unfounded accusations of illegal behavior,
without evidence to support it, of several members of
the forum."
Yeah, well I presented the same evidence to the state Campaign Finance and disclosure board that I posted on e-democracy and e-mailed to the moderators....they thought it was pretty good.
So did the Ramsey County Attorney, who took the documentation I had and, after a six month investigation concluded the SPPS had illegally colluded with Progressive Minnesota...of course the RCA is Susan Gaertner, a well known barking moonbat (and one ugly woman, BTW), and she told me that "Yes, there was some misconduct here, but we decline to press charges".
The report is a public document.
The accusations were true and correct, and I provided documentation to back them up. Indeed, if I was lying, why didn't Anne Carroll or Dan McGrath (the leftist piece of shit in charge of ProgMN at the time) sue me?
I publicly called them both crooks and liars...and, whoops! I'm doing it again now...sue me, please!
"2) The use of unnecessarily vulgar language to make
a point. For example "fisting" and "barebacking."
Yeah, that's pretty nasty language...that was the point.
That thread concerned the disgusting scandal that had just been uncovered involving GLSEN...a group from which the district had just hired as it's director of gay indoctrination and safe sodomy.
The language that so offended the delicate sensibilities of the echo chamber was taken, verbatim, from a transcript of a recording made of a conversation between GLSEN and a thirteen year old kid...and it got worse.
Then they tried to cover their boy's connection to GLSEN...too bad I had the proof, again.
Oddly enough, GLSEN is just about to hit the news again. PeeBO hired the founder, Kevin Jennings, to head up his department of "safe" schools....just wait until you see that mess unravel.
"3) Ongoing and unnecessary attacks and insults
directed at several forum members."
Ongoing, yes. Unnecessary? Not a bit. It's absolutely necessary to tell leftists what scumbags they are, and to stick the disastrous results of their conniving agenda of anti-Americanism right up into their feral snouts at every opportunity.
I take it as my patriotic duty.
"4) Inflammatory and threatening offline exchanges
with several members of SPIF."
Bullshit. I never threatened anyone. Guy Western once called my house at 7:30 Saturday morning and cursed at my wife. I took the appropriate actions. When disgraced lawyer Dan Dobson e-mailed me with some crap, I tossed it back into his face.
Talk is a waste of time. If there is no way around an idiot other than kicking his ass, I'll just kick his ass...no discussion necessary, or forthcoming.
"5) A pattern of sarcastic and insulting comments
aimed at all those with whom you politically disagree."
See #3 above. And BTW, evidently I was supposed to take shit from moonbats, but not dish it...I don't roll like that.
"In the interest of "open discussion" and in
consideration of the "context" of some of these
behaviors, we have exhibited a great deal of tolerance
and patience. However, in light of this ongoing
pattern of behavior, we have come to the conclusion
that your participation in E-Democracy.Org forums is
disruptive to the goals of our organization."
They're fucking liars and cowards, and so is the anonymous little puke that posted that pap; yeah, I'm looking at you boy.
In fact, come to think of it, every lefty I've ever run across is a liar and a coward.
I was booted because I outed Anne Carroll for the lying, reprobate she is, and they didn't like it. I'm out, but she's still a liar.
Too bad we don't have more people like Swiftee who just clal it like it is. If we did maybe then there wouldn't be so many people just making up BS as they go and passing it off as fact and never getting called on it. Swoftee is right on one thing.....Liberals don't like getting called on their BS and when you do they want to crush you like a bug.
So did the Ramsey County Attorney, who took the documentation I had and, after a six month investigation concluded the SPPS had illegally colluded with Progressive Minnesota...of course the RCA is Susan Gaertner, a well known barking moonbat (and one ugly woman, BTW), and she told me that "Yes, there was some misconduct here, but we decline to press charges.
This is why Tomas Swift will be in prison relatively soon. He is angry beyond normalcy.
Was it necessary to point out what you think of Gaertner's looks? Why is your opinion on that necessary. I would never comment on the looks of someone's wife. We've seen you're wife Mr Swift. She is a very big woman with very bad hair.
You seem to have something against thin or fit women that makes you angry or, is it jealousy?
So, you like the fatties, no need to go after the fit women.
All of those years of going after women for how they look and here you are, a chubby chaser.
Just to show I'm not making it up, take a peek yourself:
http://tinyurl.com/SwifteeandWife
Oh I bet you're steaming with rage aren't you Tomas? Doesn't feel good does it? Then knock off the attacks on women.
The same way you love your wife, no matter how much she let herself go, others love theirs. You want to beat up on the views or politics, that's another story, but to go on about their appearance is beneath decency. Besides, you're a pretty ugly man with horrible hair.
HA! Listen little man; it's going to take more than a shot from a pathetic coward hiding behind a keyboard to piss me off.
If you want to get the job done, you're going to have to confront me like a man...from what I know of anonymous moonbat asswipes such as yourself, that's not likely.
So, I'll have another cup of coffee, Anne Carroll is still a liar, you're still a punk and Gaertner is still one ugly broad.
Questions?
Problems?
I thought not.
"Was it necessary to point out what you think of Gaertner's looks? Why is your opinion on that necessary."
I think it is important and I thank Tom for this service that normally would be missing from the information.
It seems that the worse these political goofballs are, the more crazy or odd ball they seem to look in thier personal appearance.
Thank you Tom.
"but to go on about their appearance is beneath decency."
Please.....lets keep this low key. You start mentioning "beneathh decency" and you'll have every DFLr in the county flocking here to chime in.
Do you all have beaten-wife syndrome?
He rips on people posting anonymously and some of you come to his aid.
He's been boxed in using his own illogical arguments. Now that we know his wife is a fat-ass, and he has no problem with that, why does he feel the need to point that out with others?
Tom, I don't want to fight you. You are sorry enough and soon enough will be in prison where they'll find a better use of that big mouth of yours. Say hi to the Mrs for me.
"Do you all have beaten-wife syndrome?
He rips on people posting anonymously and some of you come to his aid."
Because he's right.
"He's been boxed in using his own illogical arguments."
If "because you say so" means he's boxed in.
As far as I've seen, the only place Swiftee's been "boxed in" is by someone finding a pic of Mrs. Swift on a bad hair day after Tom called Susan Gaertner an uggo. (I don't care what she looks like; she's a shit DA, and that's all that matters).
As to the real argument - that Swift was banned from SPIF because he ate Ann Carlol's lunch? No boxing in there.
"Now that we know his wife is a fat-ass, and he has no problem with that, why does he feel the need to point that out with others?"
John Woedele? Is that you?
"Tom, I don't want to fight you. You are sorry enough and soon enough will be in prison where they'll find a better use of that big mouth of yours. Say hi to the Mrs for me.""
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!
Eric said;
Threats, on your door?
C'mon Bob, really?
Threats, on your door?
C'mon Bob, really?
You and I got into a fight. I didn't threaten, I challenged you, which pushed me to a short suspension or warning or whatever. I decided not to post for a while anyway. You decided to appeal the decision, got mad somehow during the process and decided to quit altogether.
My response;
Eric, I was speaking of a threat left on my door that read
Bob,
"He who throws stones shouldn't live in glass houses"
I thought who in the hell thinks I am causing enough trouble that they would take the effort and time to leave a message like this on my door.
I made a comment at SPIF when it occurred. I suspected some kind of relation to SPIF because at that time period in my life I was not in any heated personal disagreements with anyone except people who opposed me at SPIF.
There is other issues concerning harassment. I won't get into that it may become a legal issue in the future.
I know John Krenik had some issues with vandalism concerning dog feceses that he suspects came from his involvement in politics.
Eric, to everyone who knows of our disagreement you speak of, I don't think they are in the mind set I felt threatened by you in anyway. I remember saying we could promote a public fight so everyone could watch this old man kick your ass. :)
There was a lot more to my suspension than you let on Eric. In fact I don't remember the exact wording of the suspension and I didn't save that trash, but it went something like this.
It was my understanding I was suspended for criticizing the forum on more than one occasion. I believe that is what it all boiled down to in the end. My suspension had nothing to do with you but was kind of a catalyst to get the oppressors of opposition after me you were one of the co conspirators remember Eric?
Hey! One more thing. I read a correspondence between Bob Spaulding and Grace Kelly that really showed the mind set of the core at SPIF.
Prior to my suspension Bob Spaulding was expressing his anger for me to Grace Kelly at an E Democracy forum. He felt I was winning public perception and he wanted me banded from SPIF. Bob S. was angry I exposed one of their "as he said", respected non profit. This non profit allowed children to work removing asbestos without protective gear. There is a long list of allegations against this so called respectable non profit. Mind you now Bob was already angry with me for discussing housing issues he and others felt embarrassing or as they would want folks to believe, untrue. Grace in all fairness argued on my behalf not to have me banned.
I think maybe in over a year at SPIF I only received 1 warning. I knew I had to be on better behavior than the loud mouths who attacked me or they would have a reason to get rid of me. Usually it takes 2 or 3 warnings before you get suspended. Then a member may receive a small suspension like 2 weeks. I...went right to a one year suspension. They were really anxious to get rid of me! In all fairness I think there was times Michelle could have written me up and didn't.
After your year was up I seem to remember you telling me that they asked you to come back to them. Did I misunderstand you Bob? Were they not also spreading rumors or something that you a "Hit Man" for the mob?
Yep, they invited me back. And when they were all so disparate to identify me they were letting their fruited minds run wild.
When I read the comments of our anonymous little sphincter boy, I keep picturing Ken (Avidor) Weiner; and with that picture I read Tom, I don't want to fight you,....and I think I might have broken a rib laughing.
There's definitely some deep seated shame playing out in your head, little man. But typing out smack you could never say out loud is just going to make it worse.
What happened to you little man? Does your wife look like Susan Gearin?
Did someone take your ugly wife away from you, use her and then toss her back into your weak little arms when he was through, little man? And you just stood there and peed in your panties...is that what fuels your impotent raving?
Did you and your ugly wife make any ugly, weak kids, little man? Do they know what a coward you are?
I bet they don't even talk to you, do they little man? They can see the craven coward looking out from behind your eyes, can't they?
And you feel that burning shame, don't you, little man...and all you can do is type out your shame on the internet.
Damn, that's gotta suck.
Tomas, I don't have a wife although yours is enough woman for both of us and another.
You are once again falling into a fat rage. Its time you learn how to release that anger and rage without setting yourself up for prison. Do what I do: get some Strawberry Boones Farm for your wife (its her favorite until they make chocolate eclair favorite), then pull down those xtra large granny-panties, smack her fat ass and ride one of the waves home.
You may want to bring some ear plugs so that you don't have to hear about how small and incompetent her husband is(crazy I know). She does like to take control and is a bit wiggly for a big girl but, I'm confident you can take it.
After a session with her, you'll feel dirty (and will be oily) but somehow feel you concerns lifted temporarily.
All those years of drawing Eva Young and come to find out your wife was the model, which explains the details.
You want to keep this thing going Tomas?
Avidor, you may well be the stupidest little hamster I've ever run across.
You ever get that chilling feeling you did something you really wish you hadn't? No, considering the vestigial brain you're working with, I'd guess not.
A few of your friends have trod the road you are on...you should ask them how that worked out for them, and whether they'd try it again.
You are once again falling into a fat rage.
Actually, knowing Swiftee, he's laughing his ass off at the thought of some chubby little net-roach bagging on him and his wife from behind the cover of his keyboard.
Bagging on someone's wife? Who's not even party to the discussion? That's the mark of the gutless simp.
Oh, yeah - and Mrs. Swift is an immensely cool person (we've met), and her "anonymous" detractors should stick to making gooey messes with their Jergens and paper towels and leave the actual thinking to us grownups. Thanks.
Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot is going on in here? (quietly backs out of the room and close the door).
Hey new guy, take a folding chair with you and pistol. Swiftee is a Bruce Lee blackbelt and gun owner. The sonavabitch lives for this kind of shit.
Swiftee is an easy enough flawed target without bringing the wife into this with inaccurate descriptions.
She's married to him, give her a break.
He's the king of hyperbole- go after the man.
Stick around, we can use someone on the right side of issues in here.
Eric
What Eric said, Ken Weiner. Back off the lady.
But...:
Swiftee is a...gun owner
Like all real Americans.
Thanks Eric, but trust me here, I don't need your help.
I never need to resort to violence with the average lefty assnozzle...a thorough, fact based mocking usually does the trick quite nicely.
Case in point; Ken (Weiner) Avidor has wisely left the building....on his knees, with my rhetorical foot up his ass, as per usual.
Case closed.
(BTW, the only black belt a practitioner of Kung Fu wears is the one that holds up his pants...just sayin')
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