A DEMOCRACY TOWN HALL: Citizens of Saint Paul -vs- The City of Saint Paul Part 3 "Testimony of Code Inspector Lisa Martin"

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Monday, December 29, 2008

Citizens of Saint Paul -vs- The City of Saint Paul Part 3 "Testimony of Code Inspector Lisa Martin"

Scroll down the page for parts 1 & 2.
Please click onto the COMMENTS for the testimony.

31 Comments:

Bob said...: I will be posting this testimony in several parts. It is lengthy and some of it is boring. But please read through it. This case is very interesting if you know all the facts.

There maybe copy errors.

LISA MARTIN,
6 having been previously
7 duly sworn, deposes and
8 says as follows:
9
10 EXAMINATION
11 BY MR. SHOEMAKER:
12 Q Good morning, Ms. Martin. Would you state your
13 full name?
14 A Lisa Marie Martin.
15 Q For the record, I'm going to introduce my
16 clients that are here. Kelly Brisson is here
17 for the first case. Steinhauser, et al, Frank
18 Steinhauser, and also Steve Johnson, Matt Engel,
19 attorney for Plaintiffs in the third lawsuit,
20 the Gallagher case. Here with me today are my
21 legal assistant, Tanya Hoven, Joseph Collins,
22 Tom Gallagher and Sara Kuvitschek?
23 MS. SEEBA: Louise Seeba on behalf
24 of all defendants in all three cases here. With
25 me today is Lisa Martin, Mr. Dick Lippert and
5
1 Mr. Steve, Magner.
2 Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Ms. Martin, you've
3 been at a number of depositions taken here in
4 the last month or month-and-a-month. Correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Which depositions do you remember being at?
7 A Officer Dean Keenan, Andy Dawkins.
8 Q How much of the deposition of Mr. Keenan were
9 you present for?
10 A I believe I was there for the entire deposition.
11 Q How about for Mr. Dawkins, how much of the two
12 days of Mr. Dawkins deposition were you present?
13 A I believe half of the first day and half of the
14 second day.
15 Q Just a couple of introductory instructions here
16 from a standpoint of helping the court reporter
17 and also the attorneys with the transcript and
18 your review of the transcript if you should
19 decide to do so. I'm going to try today to not
20 interrupt your answer. If you can do the same
21 to wait for me to fully ask a question, that way
22 we won't have an overlap and the court reporter
23 won't be looking at us with a puzzlement as to
24 why we are double speaking. If you don't
25 understand a question let me know. It may be a
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MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
6
1 confusing question counsel may object at times
2 wait for the objection to be noted and then
3 answer if you don't understand it let me know
4 and I will rephrase the question. Is that okay?
5 A Yes.
6 Q If you do answer a question I will assume you
7 understood what I was asking. Is that okay?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Is there any limitation that you have here today
10 from a standpoint of a physical or mental type
11 condition that would limit your participation in
12 a questioning and answering period?
13 A No.
14 Q Let's look at your background. I want to find
15 out a little more about you as an individual.
16 Where did you grow up?
17 A South St. Paul.
18 Q What year were you born?
19 A 1967.
20 Q Do you go to grand school in south St. Paul?
21 A Yes I did.
22 Q What school was that?
23 A Roosevelt.
24 Q Following your grade school did you go to high
25 school in the south St. Paul area as well?
7
1 A It was a junior high.
2 Q And then a senior high?
3 A Correct.
4 Q What was the name of the senior high?
5 A South St. Paul high school.
6 Q Did you graduate from there?
7 A Yes, I did.
8 Q Where did you live in south St. Paul when you
9 were a child?
10 A Grew up on 4th Avenue.
11 Q What was the address there?
12 A 114.
13 Q 4th Avenue?
14 A South.
15 Q How long did you live in that?
16 A I was born in that home and stayed there until I
17 became married.
18 Q How long a period was that that you lived in
19 that residents?
20 A I was there 18 years.
21 Q Is that particular structure still there today?
22 A Yes it is.
23 Q Who owns that structure?
24 A I have no idea.
25 Q What are your parents names?
8
1 A Hedwig Schlemmer.
2 Q How do you spell that?
3 A H-E-D-W-I-G.
4 Q The last name?
5 A S-C-H-L-E-M-M-E-R.
6 Q Are your parents still alive?
7 A My father is de ceased.
Page 4
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
8 Q Where does your mother live?
9 A In Mendota Heights.
10 Q What's the address there?
11 A I don't know the actual address.
12 Q Do you know whereabouts the home is?
13 A Off of 110 and Dodd.
14 Q Tell me about the jobs that you've had prior to
15 high school. Did you have any employment as a
16 part-time employee at any time?
17 A I did I was a dance instructor for Denise Angle
18 dance studio and I worked as an assistant for
19 southview Nursing Home check check.
20 Q Did you do that type of work when you were in
21 high school as well?
22 A Yes I worked full time in high school.
23 Q Where did you work?
24 A Southview Acres Nursing Home at night.
25 Q What type of position did you have there?
9
1 A Nursing assistant.
2 Q That was full-time during high school?
3 A Correct.
4 Q How many hours did you work a week there?
5 A At least 40.
6 Q Did you have any other part-time jobs during
7 high school?
8 A Yes I was a dance teacher.
9 Q How much hours did you do that?
10 A Probably 8 to 16.
11 Q How long did you work in the role as a dance
12 instructor?
13 A I started dancing when I was three years old and
14 I became an instructor at the age of 13.
15 Q How long did you actually work as an instructor?
16 A Until I graduated high school.
17 Q Whether you graduated from high school did you
18 take employment anywhere?
19 A Yes I did.
20 Q What type much jobs did you have following high
21 school?
22 A Following high school I worked in the
23 construction business. I worked in the
24 environmental business. I worked in the
25 insurance business.
10
1 Q Let's start in chronological order. What was
2 the first job you had at the time that you
3 graduated from high school?
4 A It's so long ago. I'm guessing with a brand of
5 California. It was a construction company.
6 Q Where were they locateded?
7 A San Francisco.
8 Q Did you go to San Francisco?
9 A Yes, I did.
10 Q How long did you live there?
11 A Six years.
12 Q What type of living arrangement did you have?
13 A My husband was in the military.
14 Q When did you get married?
15 A 1986.
16 Q What was the name of your husband?
Page 5
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
17 A William Bergman.
18 Q Where did you get married?
19 A In San Francisco.
20 Q Where did you meet your husband?
21 A He was a friend of the family.
22 Q From the Minnesota area?
23 A Correct.
24 Q So you transferred out or moved out to
25 California. What year was that?
11
1 A 1986.
2 Q You lived there for six or seven years you said?
3 A Correct.
4 Q What did you do when you were there in
5 California for your first employment?
6 A I believe it was brand of California
7 construction company.
8 Q What was the name of your buzz there, do you
9 remember that?
10 A I don't remember.
11 Q What type of work did you do?
12 A They did asbestos abatement.
13 Q Did you have to take any special training in
14 order to work in the asbestos abatement field
15 there in California?
16 A Yes I did.
17 Q Describe that for me?
18 A I had to take a 40 hour hazardous material
19 course. I also took NIOSH 582 training reading
20 samples of asbestos check check.
21 Q Give the letters of the?
22 A N I O S H.
23 Q So you also took some training not only 40 hours
24 but the additional organization that you
25 mentioned training from that organization.
12
1 Correct?
2 A Correct.
3 Q Did that give you a certification?
4 A Yes.
5 Q What was the title of the certification that you
6 obtained?
7 A One was asbestos abatement worker and asbestos
8 abatement supervisor.
9 Q How long did you maintain those certifications?
10 A Approximately four years.
11 Q Describe the kind of work that you did with
12 asbestos abatement generally?
13 A We tore down schools, buildings, that had
14 asbestos in them.
15 Q You removed certain components within those
16 structures?
17 A Correct.
18 Q That were asbestos?
19 A Correct and demolition.
20 Q What would you do with the materials that were
21 removed from the structures that had asbestos
22 components?
23 A Bagged them up and has materials and had them
24 hauled away.
25 Q Was the California system system up where there
Page 6
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
13
1 had to be a licenseded asbestos abatement
2 company doing that type of work in structures at
3 the time that you were working out there?
4 MS. SEEBA: Objection, foundation.
5 A I don't know.
6 Q Did you understand that you had to have some
7 asbestos training and certification in order to
8 do the work you were doing?
9 A Correct.
10 Q How many people did you work with at that
11 company doing asbestos abatement work?
12 A Close to 200.
13 Q How many people did you actually have contact
14 with?
15 A It depended on the job site.
16 Q Do you keep in contact with anybody from that
17 particular construction company still?
18 A No, I do not.
19 Q What was the year that you left California?
20 A I believe 1990.
21 Q Where did you go when you left California in
22 1990?
23 A Back to Inver Grove heights.
24 Q Your husband at the time you said was in the
25 military?
14
1 A Correct.
2 Q What branch was he in?
3 A Navy.
4 Q What type of occupational specialty did he have?
5 A I have no idea.
6 Q Did his job require that he go to see with
7 others in his unit?
8 A Yes.
9 Q How long were you married to Mr. Bergman?
10 A I believe it was two maybe three years.
11 Q Were you divorced prior to leaving California?
12 A Yes I was.
13 Q What county did you live in out there do you
14 know?
15 A I don't recall.
16 Q Does Mr. Bergman have any family in this area?
17 A I have no idea.
18 Q Did he grow up in Minnesota?
19 A Yes he did.
20 Q Where did he grow up?
21 A On 14th avenue in south St. Paul.
22 Q How do you spell his last name?
23 A B E R G M A N.
24 Q Do you know his middle initial?
25 A I believe it's J.
15
1 Q Did you have any other jobs when you were in
2 California for the 6 to 7 years you were out
3 there besides the construction abatement type
4 work you mentioned?
5 A When I was working for that company I was
6 approached by an environmental company that was
7 on site and I started working for them.
Page 7
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
8 Q Did you quit working then for the asbestos
9 company?
10 A I did.
11 Q Describe what type of work you did in the
12 environmental area?
13 A I was doing air sampling.
14 Q Do you know the name of that company?
15 A I don't.
16 Q How long did you work for the air sampling
17 company in the environmental field?
18 A I believe it was 1 to two years.
19 Q Why did you leave that position?
20 A Moved back to Minnesota.
21 Q Did you have an employment already lined up back
22 here?
23 A No I did not.
24 Q Do you remember any supervisors name that you
25 worked with in the air sampling environmental
16
1 company?
2 A His first name was Rick.
3 Q Did you have a good relationship from a work
4 standpoint with your supervisor there?
5 A Absolutely.
6 Q How about with regard to the asbestos abatement
7 company, you did not recall who your boss was
8 but what was the reason you left that company?
9 A I took the position with the environmental
10 company so I was no longer doing asbestos
11 removal. I was doing air sampling.
12 Q Did you enter view with the air sampling
13 environmental company while you were still
14 employed with the asbestos abatement work?
15 A Yes I did.
16 Q What other types of employment did you have in
17 California Ms. Martin?
18 A It was so long ago I don't recall if I had any
19 other positions there.
20 Q Did you have any part-time employment at all
21 during the time you were in California?
22 A I don't believe so.
23 Q Are you sure about that?
24 A Like I said it was a long time ago. I don't
25 believe so.
17
1 Q So the two positions in California that you've
2 indicated that you recall were the asbestos
3 abatement work that you did and the
4 environmental air sampling work. Correct?
5 A Correct.
6 Q Anything else that you can recall about any
7 other type of occupation or employment type work
8 that you had in California?
9 A Not that I can remember, no.
10 Q What type of residence did you live in when you
11 were working for the air sampling company?
12 A That was a home that we rented.
13 Q Single family type home?
14 A Correct.
15 Q How many residences did you have in California
16 while you were living there during the periods
Page 8
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
17 that you indicated?
18 A Probably 4.
19 Q Did you rent each of those residences while you
20 were there in California?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Describe the first rental property that you
23 resided in in California?
24 A Well the first property was military housing.
25 Q How long were you in the military housing?
18
1 A I believe we were there for 3 months.
2 Q Where did you go after that for a residence?
3 A We wented a home off base.
4 Q What type of a home was that?
5 A It was just a standard single family home.
6 Q How long did you have rental of that property?
7 A I believe a year.
8 Q Then you moved to another rental structure, did
9 you?
10 A Correct.
11 Q What type of a structure was that?
12 A A 4 Plaintiff's Exhibit.
13 Q Did you have another rental between that time
14 and when you actually went into the sin gum
15 family rental you indicated you were residing in
16 when you were an air sampler?
17 A Can you clarify that?
18 Q You've indicated you had military housing for 3
19 months then a 44 Plaintiff's Exhibit correct?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Where did you go after that?
22 A We rented a home.
23 Q Did you have any other rentals besides that next
24 home?
25 A I believe that was the last home before we moved
19
1 back to Minnesota.
2 Q So you had 2 rentals the 4 Plaintiff's Exhibit
3 and the single family home that you recall being
4 in while you were in California?
5 MS. SEEBA: For the record I think
6 she said a home after the military housing.
7 A Right. Military housing and then there was a
8 home we wented, the fourplex and then the last
9 home we rented.
10 Q Thank you. The rentals you were in other than
11 the military housing did you have any
12 disagreements with your landlords in any of
13 those three structures?
14 A No.
15 Q Let's go to the time period then when you
16 returned to Minnesota which you indicated was
17 about 1990. You came back to Inver Grove
18 heights. Correct?
19 A Correct.
20 Q Tell me where you lived at that time?
21 A I lived off of 78 th street in Inver Grove
22 heights.
23 Q What type of a structure was that?
24 A A town home.
25 Q Was that a rental?
Page 9
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
20
1 A My husband worked for the company so we received
2 that as part of his salary.
3 Q So you were divorced in California sometime
4 during the period that you were out there.
5 Correct?
6 A Correct.
7 Q Did you meet someone else then and end up
8 getting married in California?
9 A Correct.
10 Q Who did you meet that you married?
11 A Christopher Jefferson.
12 Q What year was that that you met Christopher
13 Jefferson?
14 A I would have met him in 1987.
15 Q Was he what was he doing for occupation or
16 employment at that time?
17 A He was also working for brand of California.
18 Q Construction company you talked about?
19 A Correct.
20 Q Check check brand of California?
21 Q What year did you get married to Mr. Jefferson?
22 A It would have been 1989.
23 Q Was Mr. Jefferson continuing to be employed by
24 the asbestos abatement company brand of
25 California when you left California?
21
1 A No.
2 Q What other employment did he have, if any, when
3 you were in California?
4 A He worked for a men's clothing store.
5 Q Part-time?
6 A I don't remember.
7 Q Did he travel with you to Minnesota?
8 A Yes. Actually, he came here first.
9 Q What employment did he have in Minnesota?
10 A He didn't have employment. He came here to look
11 for employment and housing.
12 Q Did he have any relatives in this area?
13 A No.
14 Q Where did he grow up?
15 A San Francisco.
16 Q What employment did he take after he moved here
17 to Minnesota?
18 A He was doing maintenance for town homes.
19 Q Do you know who he worked for?
20 A Law sell.
21 Q Law sell what?
22 A I think it's property management but I'm not
23 sure.
24 Q Where were they located?
25 A In Edina.
22
1 Q As you understood his position, where were the
2 properties that he was doing maintenance on?
3 A Just the one we lived at.
4 Q Was he in a role similar to a caretaker?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And that property was located Inver Grove
7 heights?
Page 10
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
8 A Right 78 th street.
9 Q How long did you live there?
10 A I believe three years.
11 Q Where did you go after that?
12 A We bought a home in Inver Grove heights.
13 Q What was the address of that home?
14 A 8251 Dawson way.
15 Q You said Dawson?
16 A Correct D A W S O N.
17 Q Way W A Y?
18 A Correct.
19 Q How long did you live there?
20 A A couple years.
21 Q Two years?
22 A Possibly, I don't recall.
23 Q How long were you married to Mr. Jefferson?
24 A Ten years.
25 Q Did you have any children with Mr. Bergman?
23
1 A Yes.
2 Q How many children did you have?
3 A 1.
4 Q How old is that child now?
5 A 19.
6 Q Where does your child from that marriage reside,
7 in Minnesota?
8 A Her place of residency is south St. Paul.
9 Q Did you have any children during your marriage
10 with Mr. Jefferson?
11 A No.
12 Q How long were you married to Mr. -- when were
13 you divorced from Mr. Jefferson?
14 A I believe it was 1999.
15 Q Where were you residing when you were divorced?
16 A On Dawson way in Inver Grove heights.
17 Q Were you subsequently married following your
18 divorce from Mr. Jefferson?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Who did you marry?
21 A Aaron foster.
22 Q How long were you married to Mr. Foster?
23 A About a year.
24 Q Did you have any children with Mr. Foster?
25 A No.
24
1 Q Where did you live when you were married to
2 Mr. Foster?
3 A On western avenue in St. Paul.
4 Q What was the address?
5 A I believe it was 1187.
6 Q 1187 western avenue?
7 A Correct.
8 Q What type of structure was that?
9 A Single family.
10 Q Do you remember the year that that property
11 approximately was built?
12 A I have no idea.
13 Q Is it an older home?
14 A Yes.
15 Q What type of structure was it, 3 bedroom, 4
16 bedroom, what describe that for me?
Page 11
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
17 A Two bedroom.
18 Q Whether you were married to Mr. Jefferson and he
19 was working as a maintenance person for law sell
20 owners of the law sell property, that was a
21 larger unit structure, was it? You said town
22 home?
23 A Yes.
24 Q What type of a town home structure was that that
25 he did work for?
25
1 A I believe it was 400 units.
2 Q Did you receive rent in return for his
3 maintenance work? In other words a rent credit?
4 A Correct.
5 Q How many bedroom was the town home?
6 A Three bedrooms, two bath.
7 Q Did Mr. Jefferson have any disagreements with
8 the owners of the property related to any issue?
9 A No.
10 Q You were married to Mr. Foster for a year you
11 said. Correct?
12 A Correct.
13 Q What year were you divorced?
14 A Let's see. 2001.
15 Q You were living in the western avenue property
16 when you were divorced?
17 A Correct.
18 Q Have you had any subsequent marriages?
19 A Yes.
20 Q When did you have a subsequent marriage?
21 A I was remarried in 2003.
22 Q Who did you marry then?
23 A Franklin Martin.
24 Q How long were you married to Mr. Martin?
25 A Currently.
26
1 Q Have you ever been divorced from Mr. Martin?
2 A No.
3 Q Have you ever been legally separated from
4 Mr. Martin?
5 A Never.
6 Q I understand that you do not live in the City of
7 St. Paul. Correct?
8 A Correct.
9 Q Let's focus on the time period when you got back
10 to Minnesota from California. I want to talk a
11 little bit about your employment starting
12 approximately in 1990. Can you tell me what
13 your first job or employment position or
14 occupation was when you got back?
15 A I was an insurance agent for State Farm
16 insurance.
17 Q What agency were you working for?
18 A I don't recall. It was just State Farm. Kevin
19 Knutson was the agent.
20 Q Where was he located?
21 A In Bloomington on Lyndale.
22 Q Does he still have an agency there?
23 A He switched from State Farm to farmers insurance
24 and I went with him then to Burnsville.
25 Q Does he currently have an agency in Burnsville?
Page 12
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
27
1 A Yes he does. He is still my agent.
2 Q You took training then in order to become an
3 insurance agent. Correct?
4 A Correct.
5 Q Took a test and passed the test and got a
6 license?
7 A Correct.
8 Q Do you still have a license?
9 A No.
10 Q When did you let your license lapse?
11 A When I stopped working as an agent.
12 Q When was that?
13 A I don't recall the date.
14 Q Was it a long period of employment as an
15 insurance agent for both of those companies or a
16 short term?
17 A I believe I was there for 4 to five years.
18 Q Was your role with the insurance agent that you
19 indicated had 2 different insurance companies,
20 was that a full time position?
21 A Yes, it was.
22 Q What type of sales role did you have? Did you
23 have to go out and make cold calls?
24 A I did not really have to go out. I could stay
25 in the office and make calls from a phone book.
28
1 Otherwise, we already had a lot of clients that
2 I was servicing their policies.
3 Q That particular position why did you leave that?
4 A I took a job -- I was working part-time for a
5 hotel and I took a job as a manager at a hotel.
6 Q You were working part-time with another company
7 while you were selling insurance full time.
8 Correct?
9 A Correct.
10 Q What was the name of the company you were
11 working part-time for?
12 A Drover's Hotel.
13 Q Where were they located?
14 A South St. Paul.
15 Q How long did you work there?
16 A I was there for, I believe, three years.
17 Q What was your position there?
18 A I started out as a front desk staff member and
19 became the general manager.
20 Q How many employees did you supervise as a
21 general manager?
22 A I believe there was about 150.
23 Q So that particular position went from part-time
24 to full time. Is that correct?
25 A Correct.
29
1 Q And is that the reason you left your insurance
2 sales position?
3 A Yes, it is.
4 Q What year did you become full time at the hotel?
5 A I don't remember the exact year.
6 Q Who did you report to as an immediate supervisor
7 to you when you were working as a front desk
Page 13
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
8 person, do you recall that?
9 A I don't recall.
10 Q Did you have a general manager once once you got
11 the promotion at the hotel? You got a
12 promotion. Did you have someone above you?
13 A The owner.
14 Q Who was the owner?
15 A James Graves.
16 Q How do you spell that?
17 A G R A V E S.
18 Q Do you know where Mr. Graves currently lives?
19 A No, I don't.
20 Q Do you know if he is still at that particular
21 hotel?
22 A No, he is not.
23 Q When did you leave employment with the hotel?
24 A I don't remember the exact date.
25 Q What type of employment did you take following
30
1 departure from that company?
2 A I left there to go to Excel energy.
3 Q How long did you work at Excel?
4 A I was there for approximately three years.
5 Q What was your position there?
6 A I started out as a customer service
7 representative and then supervised the night
8 crew.
9 Q Was that a full time position when you started
10 with Excel energy?
11 A Yes, it was.
12 Q Did you have any part-time positions when you
13 had received the promotion at the hotel you
14 mentioned?
15 A No.
16 Q Did you have any part-time positions when you
17 were with Excel energy?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Describe those for me, would you?
20 A I worked for Northwest airlines as a ground
21 equipment service operator.
22 Q Part-time position?
23 A Correct.
24 Q What years did you work with Northwest?
25 A I was there for just one year. I don't recall
31
1 the dates.
2 Q Any other part-time positions while you were
3 working at Excel energy?
4 A Yes, St. Paul police department.
5 Q What year did you start with the St. Paul police
6 department?
7 A I believe that was in 2000.
8 Q What was your position there?
9 A Dispatcher.
10 Q Was that a part-time position the entire time
11 you were with the St. Paul police department?
12 A It started out part-time and then became full
13 time.
14 Q What year did you start part-time?
15 A 2000.
16 Q Were you also a dispatcher then in the full time
Page 14
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
17 role with the police department?
18 A Yes.
19 Q How long did you work for the police department
20 in a dispatch role?
21 A Approximately 1 year.
22 Q And then did you take any further employment
23 with the police department?
24 A No.
25 Q Did you have any full time work thereafter?
32
1 A Yes.
2 Q Where was that?
3 A With code enforcement.
4 Q So you transferred over from the police
5 department as a dispatcher full time to code
6 enforcement in approximately 2000?
7 A That is correct.
8 Q What type of training did you go through as a
9 dispatcher for the police department either in a
10 part-time or full time role?
11 A They had training on the job but I was also
12 dispatching for Excel energy.
13 Q Right you were working for Excel energy at the
14 time that you were also working for the police
15 department. Correct?
16 A Correct.
17 Q Were you dispatching as you described it with
18 Excel energy as well?
19 A Correct.
20 Q So describe that position with Excel energy?
21 What did you do?
22 A During any type of storms or outages we would
23 dispatch emergency crews or any type of fires or
24 situations.
25 Q Did you ever have any role in providing notice
33
1 to any municipality that the energy electricity
2 was shut off on a property in your role at Excel
3 energy?
4 A No.
5 Q So your dispatch was to dispatch emergency
6 crews?
7 A Correct.
8 Q Any other type of dispatching work you did
9 there?
10 A No.
11 Q The addition patch work that you did for the St.
12 St. Paul police department describe that?
13 A Taking 911 phone calls typing information into
14 the computer system so it could be transferred
15 to the police officers in the field. I worked
16 channel 5 checking for warrants, missing
17 children, stolen vehicles.
18 Q Who did you work for with the police department
19 when you first started as a part-time
20 dispatcher? Who was your supervisor?
21 A There was several supervisors.
22 Q When you became a full time dispatcher did you
23 have an immediate supervisor?
24 A It depended on the shift you worked but I
25 believe Tim Butler was in charge.
Page 15
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
34
1 Q Of the dispatchers?
2 A I believe so.
3 Q Was that a union position with the St. Paul
4 police department as a dispatcher?
5 A I don't remember.
6 Q When you transferred over to code enforcement,
7 was that with the actual health department?
8 A Not that I can remember it was code enforcement.
9 Q What was the name of the agency that you worked
10 for when you first transferred over to code
11 enforcement, do you recall?
12 A I believe it was code enforcement.
13 Q Who was your supervisor?
14 A I'm not sure.
15 Q Was Mr. Lippert the head of code enforcement
16 when you first came to code enforcement or was
17 it Mr. Moorhead?
18 A It was I worked with Mr. Moorhead.
19 Q Tell me the training that you went through
20 either prior to or when you joined code
21 enforcement that would relate to your position
22 as a code enforcement officer.
23 A I think with the town homes with assisting my
24 husband with the rental properties to fight that
25 check we did training when I was hired I went
35
1 out with area inspectors who showed me the job.
2 I have done training through the
3 University of Minnesota through different
4 building officials training courses.
5 Q Let's back up. You're talking about training
6 prior to any formal type training with the city
7 as a code inspector correct?
8 A Correct.
9 Q Tell me about what type of work you did with
10 Mr. Jefferson when you were married to him that
11 related to maintenance work.
12 A Any of the maintenance work he had get calls
13 regarding making repairs to the town homes,
14 complaints, stuff like that.
15 Q So he would get the calls or the complaints to
16 do maintenance work on the particular law sell
17 rental property. Correct?
18 A Correct.
19 Q And you're saying you would assist him in his
20 response to the particular calls or complaints?
21 A I was involved as the vice president of the
22 Board of Directors for that property. So I
23 would track how many calls were related to
24 maintenance so that we could budget for any type
25 of major repairs that needed to be made to the
36
1 property.
2 Q Tell me a little bit about or I don't position
3 as a vice president for the ownership of the
4 building. Describe that for me?
5 A The Board of Directors were nominated by the
6 tenants at the townhomes. We had meetings.
7 Q You had a townhome association of all of the
Page 16
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
8 individuals that had ownership in the
9 properties?
10 A Correct.
11 Q So you were in a vice president role in the
12 association. Correct?
13 A Correct.
14 Q How were complaints handled by the owners of the
15 various townhomes as you will recall?
16 A They were usually called into the office and
17 then given to either the maintenance person or
18 the office manager depending on what the
19 complaint was.
20 Q So if it related to any kind of repair issues
21 then it was given to your husband Mr. Jefferson
22 to handle. Correct?
23 A Or one of the other maintenance people.
24 Q How many maintenance people were there on staff?
25 A There were four.
37
1 Q Again, how many units do you recall there?
2 A I believe there were 400 but I'm not sure.
3 Q So the owners there were told that they should
4 contact the management or the maintenance staff
5 in order to handle problems they had with regard
6 to their units. Correct?
7 A Correct.
8 Q Do you know if any of the owners ever called any
9 type of code enforcement official regarding any
10 particular complaint that they had while you
11 were married to Mr. Jefferson and were with you
12 working with them?
13 A Not that I know of.
14 Q But the standard protocol was for the property
15 owners to deal with the owner and the owner's
16 manager in order to handle any type of repair or
17 maintenance issues. Correct?
18 A Correct.
19 Q Describe the University courses that you took
20 that you believe helped you in preparing for the
21 code enforcement role that you took with the
22 City of St. Paul?
23 A There is annual courses that we can go to. It's
24 the basics of code enforcement.
25 Q Let me stop you there. I'm talking about prior
38
1 to your joining the city code enforcement
2 office. Had you taken any type of University or
3 college courses?
4 A For particularly building inspecting?
5 Q Right.
6 A No.
7 Q Let's go back. You had your high school
8 education. You got your high school
9 certificate. Correct graduated from high
10 school?
11 A Yes.
12 Q What type of formal training did you take
13 thereafter? Any type of vo-tech or college type
14 courses?
15 A I took vo-tech courses in nursing and I
16 graduated from the California state police
Page 17
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
17 academy.
18 Q Let's talk about the nursing training first
19 describe that?
20 A I went to St. Paul vo-tech, received my home
21 health aid and nursing assistant course.
22 Q Did you work in that field at any time?
23 A Yes I did.
24 Q Then you mentioned that you went to the
25 California police academy. Correct?
39
1 A Correct.
2 Q What year did you go to the academy?
3 A I graduated in 1990.
4 Q How long of a program was that in California?
5 A It's a one-year program to be a police officer
6 in California.
7 Q You graduated from that program?
8 A Yes I did.
9 Q Did you work as a police officer in any type of
10 a role?
11 A No I did not.
12 Q Did you seek employment in that area?
13 A No I did not.
14 Q Why is that?
15 A I was making money as a hotel manager than a
16 starting police officer would make in the City
17 of St. Paul city of south St. Paul.
18 Q The police academy tell me a little bit about
19 how that particular course was set up. Was it a
20 day program, night program?
21 A That was a night program.
22 Q So you went through the night program of the
23 academy for about a year. Correct?
24 A Correct.
25 Q What type of subjects did you take there that
40
1 would you believe relate in any way to your role
2 as code inspector that you took here in the City
3 of St. Paul.
4 A I believe different training as far as handling
5 certain complaints.
6 Q So you took course work at the police academy in
7 California that had a subject of how to deal
8 with citizens in the community?
9 A Correct.
10 Q What type of a course was that?
11 A I don't recall exactly.
12 Q Was it a book work course or was it something
13 where you actually had mock ups of dealing with
14 citizens? Do you remember anything about it?
15 A We had saw narrows. We had classroom. There
16 were a lot of different areas covered.
17 Q The other training that you mentioned prior to
18 becoming code inspector, we have got the nursing
19 training, we have got the police academy
20 training. Any other formal education that you
21 took prior to becoming a code enforcement
22 officer?
23 A No.
24 Q Since you have become a code enforcement
25 officer, what type of training have you taken
Page 18
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
41
1 outside of the City of St. Paul? Et cetera
2 start chronologically. When you first became an
3 inspector what type of train diagnose you have
4 to take?
5 A Can you clarify that?
6 Q Whether you first became an inspector, did you
7 have to take some type of training before you
8 actually were placed in the field to handle code
9 issues for the city?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Describe that for me.
12 A I was assigned to the area inspectorss and I
13 would spend time with them on their route and
14 see how they would handle situations.
15 Q The area inspectors at the time you joined code
16 enforcement, who were they?
17 A Jean law Claire, Paula Seeley, Tom Friel, Jim
18 Prill, Steve Schiller.
19 Q Arewere all of them still there with code
20 enforcement?
21 A Yes.
22 Q How many of them did you work in your training
23 phase as a code inspector?
24 A I don't remember.
25 Q Do you remember which ones you did work with?
42
1 A Yes.
2 Q Who was that?
3 A Jean law Claire, Paula Seeley, may in other
4 words engine gee, and Harold Robinson.
5 Q Any of those you worked with more than the
6 others?
7 A No.
8 Q What type of work did you do with each much
9 those individuals that you've mentioned?
10 A Went out in the field. They showed me how their
11 complaints came in, how to respond to them and
12 how to write up paperwork.
13 Q Did each of them have the same type of training
14 for you?
15 A I don't understand the question.
16 Q Why was it that you believe that you were
17 provided 4 individuals to work with in order to
18 have training as a code inspector?
19 A All the different inspectors have different
20 areas so there may be different complaints that
21 you'd need to deal with.
22 Q When you say different areas, you're talking
23 about different geographical areas within the
24 city?
25 A Correct.
43
1 Q Let's start with Mr. Engine gee where was his
2 geographical area while you were training with
3 him?
4 A I don't recall.
5 Q Do you remember any of the areas that you were
6 trained in in the city with the 4 area
7 inspectors?
Page 19
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
8 A No, I don't.
9 Q Were you trained in only certain areas of town?
10 A I don't recall.
11 Q Do you have any recollection at all as to where
12 you actually took training within the city from
13 a geographical sense?
14 A No I don't.
15 Q But you do know that the 4 areas had different
16 types of complaints?
17 MS. SEEBA: Objection form.
18 A I don't remember.
19 Q But your recollection now as the reason you
20 trained with four area inspectors is because
21 their roles were a little different. Is that
22 right?
23 A No that's not what I said.
24 Q Describe that for me why it was you believe you
25 had to work with 4 different inspectors?
44
1 A I don't know the reason why I would work with 4
2 different inspectors.
3 Q The role that you played in learning the process
4 that they had, was it any different from a
5 standpoint of any of those area inspectors?
6 A Not that I can recall.
7 Q Did they have the same method of teaching you?
8 A Describe that.
9 Q I want to know if you're a student and you're
10 learning from 4 area inspectors who have been
11 with the city for a period of time. Correct?
12 A I don't know how long they have been with the
13 city.
14 Q Were you told that you were training with them
15 when you were going with them?
16 A Yes.
17 Q What did they teach you in particular that you
18 recall?
19 A How to respond to complaints and how to write
20 them up.
21 Q What did they say on how to respond to
22 complaints?
23 A I don't recall the exact --
24 Q Do you remember anything in general as to what
25 they told you will as to how to respond to
45
1 complaints?
2 A No I don't.
3 Q Do you remember the process that they described
4 on how to deal with complaints?
5 A No.
6 Q Do you remember any particular types of issues
7 that were significant to them that they were
8 telling you about?
9 A No.
10 Q How about the issue of exterior inspections, do
11 you recall anything from your training about
12 that?
13 A No.
14 Q When you were working with the 4 area
15 inspectors, did you have any opportunities with
16 any of them to gain access to the interior of
Page 20
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
17 any structures within the City of St. Paul?
18 A I don't recall.
19 Q So how long was this period of training with the
20 4 area inspectors?
21 A I'm not even sure.
22 Q Was it more than a week?
23 A It may have been.
24 Q Was it more than 2 weeks in length?
25 A It's possible.
46
1 Q I'm talking about the total training with the 4
2 area inspectors that you mentioned. Was the
3 training more than three weeks long?
4 A I don't recall the length.
5 Q You don't remember how long it was?
6 A No.
7 Q Do you have any recollection as to what occurred
8 following your work with those 4 area
9 inspectors?
10 A Can you clarify that?
11 Q You're not sure how long your training took
12 place with the 4 area inspectors so my question
13 is: What did you do following the end of that
14 training with the 4 area inspectors as it
15 related to code enforcement in your role with
16 the city?
17 A I was assigned an area.
18 Q So was it your understanding that once you
19 completed the training with the 4 area
20 inspectors that then you were finished with your
21 training as it related to at least getting to
22 the point where you could become a code
23 inspector yourself without anyone with you?
24 A Yes.
25 Q What year were you assigned to that you recall
47
1 as an inspector following your training with the
2 area inspectors?
3 A I believe it was off of rice street.
4 Q How big of an area was it?
5 A I don't recall.
6 Q Was there any book work that you had to go
7 through? By that I mean study materials that
8 you had to look at during the period that you
9 were working with the area inspectors?
10 A They showed me the different codes, ordinances,
11 policies procedures.
12 Q How did they show you those?
13 A They had information written down.
14 Q Was it in the office where these materials were
15 located?
16 A Right.
17 Q That's true?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Were they in a manual that you recall?
20 A I don't recall.
21 Q Was there an employee manual for the code
22 enforcement officers when you were in your
23 training portion of the code enforcement
24 employment?
25 A I don't recall.
Page 21
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
48
1 Q At any time was there an employee manual with
2 code enforcement from that point to the present?
3 A I don't recall.
4 Q You don't know if there is a training manual?
5 A No I don't.
6 Q Do you know if there is an employee manual at
7 NHPI currently?
8 A I don't know.
9 Q Have you ever looked at an employee manual at
10 the City of St. Paul that would relate to your
11 role as a code enforcement officer?
12 MS. SEEBA: Objection are you
13 asking about something entitled employee manual?
14 Q Any type of an employee manual a manual that
15 relates to your role as an inspector whether
16 it's called an employee manual, code enforcement
17 employee manual, any type of a manual that you'd
18 look to for any type of direction or information
19 in your role as a code enforcement officer.
20 That's what I'm referring to?
21 MS. SEEBA: You're talking about
22 any other codes ordinances procedure other than
23 those things.
24 MR. SHOEMAKER: Do you understand
25 my question.
49
1 A No.
2 Q With that definition that I gave to you, you
3 understand the definition?
4 MS. SEEBA: Give it again.
5 Q What I'm looking for is whether or not at any
6 time you've been a code enforcement officer for
7 the City of St. Paul, has there been any type of
8 an employee manual or booklet that would provide
9 you with instructions as a code inspector other
10 than city code provisions, ordinances, any type
11 of fire safety life codes?
12 A The only thing I can rom I have never seen
13 anything that says employee manual. I know Andy
14 Dawkins put together guidelines. Other than
15 that, no.
16 Q You're talking about the rules and procedures
17 that Mr. Dawkins put together that were not only
18 for the code inspectors but also for the public
19 as it related to time lines to get work done,
20 that kind of a thing?
21 MS. SEEBA: Objection foundation.
22 A Correct.
23 Q Do you recall Mr. Dawkins preparing rules and
24 procedures for the code inspectors to use?
25 A Yes.
50
1 Q It was your understanding that those were for
2 the benefit of the property owners in the city
3 adds well?
4 A I don't know what it was for.
5 Q But you looked at them?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Did you read them thoroughly?
Page 22
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
8 A I glanced through them yes.
9 Q How long did you take to look at Mr. Dawkins
10 rules that he put in place in 2002?
11 A I don't recall.
12 Q Did you spend an hour looking at them?
13 A I don't recall.
14 Q You said you glanced through them how long would
15 it take to glance through the rules if they were
16 15, 20 pages long?
17 MS. SEEBA: Asked and answered.
18 A I don't recall how long I took.
19 Q Any other type of a document other than what Mr.
20 Dawkins prepared that would be similar to that
21 providing guidance to you as a code inspector
22 from the time that you joined the code
23 enforcement office in the year 2000?
24 A Not that I remember.
25 Q The training that you mentioned with the 4
51
1 inspectors, was that full time training?
2 A Yes.
3 Q So when you were going through the training,
4 what time did you start your morning?
5 A I don't recall what time it was.
6 Q Was it early in the morning that you would start
7 with area inspectors during your training?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Was it a full day that you would work with the
10 area inspector?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Then did you work with area inspectors for let's
13 say -- strike that when you started training,
14 did you work with an area inspector first and
15 then complete the training with that inspector
16 before you went to the next area inspector for
17 training?
18 A I don't understand your question.
19 Q How was the training set up? Did you work with
20 1 area inspector first and then you were
21 transferred over to another area inspector to do
22 further training or did you work with all of
23 them kind of off and on?
24 A From what I remember I worked with an area
25 inspector for a day and then the next day I went
52
1 with another area inspector.
2 Q So that was the process that you worked with for
3 the period of time that you were training as you
4 would work with different area inspectors
5 depending upon the day. Correct?
6 A Correct.
7 Q Did you have office meetings during the time you
8 were training?
9 A Not that I remember.
10 Q Did you take any night course work during the
11 time that you were training as a code inspector?
12 A No.
13 Q Following your period of time that you worked
14 with the area code inspectors what additional
15 training do you recall that you went through
16 that was in addition to that area inspector
Page 23
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
17 training? What was the next training that you
18 took?
19 A I guess I don't understand your question.
20 Q Was that the end of your training when you
21 finished up with the 4 area inspectors or did
22 you take further training as a code inspector?
23 A I don't remember.
24 Q You don't remember any other training following
25 your work with the 4 area inspectors as you
53
1 indicated?
2 A We had annual training that we would go to.
3 Q Where was that?
4 A Usually the University of Minnesota.
5 Q What other institutions did you take training
6 at?
7 A There is a couple different places that we
8 received training from.
9 Q Do you remember where those were at?
10 A I believe there was a course in Maplewood and
11 the other one was at the University of
12 Minnesota. So I'm not sure.
13 Q Were these 1 day type courses?
14 A Yes.
15 Q The University of Minnesota type courses that
16 you took on an annual basis describe that for me
17 would you please?
18 A It's the building official's training institute.
19 Usually there is two days every year that we go
20 to training. They cover different subjects.
21 Q Have you gone to that type of training every
22 year since you became a code inspector in the
23 year 2000?
24 A No.
25 Q Which years have you missed that University of
54
1 Minnesota training?
2 A Last week.
3 Q That was the first year that you missed?
4 A I may have missed one other 1.
5 Q When you missed those, did you take some other
6 type of training to fill in for that training?
7 A No.
8 Q Is there a requirement at the city for you to
9 take a certain number of classes or course work
10 every year in order to say stay as a code
11 inspector?
12 A I'm not aware of that.
13 Q Other than the training you've indicated with
14 the University of Minnesota and a couple of
15 other institutions, what other training have you
16 taken that relates to your role as a code
17 inspector since you joined the city in 2000?
18 A Just training that the supervisors have
19 provided. If you have questions, they will come
20 to the field and assist.
21 Q Is there two types of training there that you're
22 describing if you have a question they will come
23 out and give you assistance in the field.
24 Correct?
25 A Absolutely.
Page 24
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
55
1 Q What other type of training have the supervisors
2 provided?
3 A I don't recall that if there's been any formal
4 training.
5 Q Has there ever been since you joined in 2000 any
6 type of training classes that any supervisor has
7 put on at the code enforcement office or some
8 other particular classroom?
9 A I remember when Andy Dawkins was the director.
10 He had some type of training where he brought in
11 different groups to talk about different things
12 that they would do.
13 Q Do you remember, were those particular
14 particular meetings or classes took place?
15 A It was at the, Bingo Hall, White Bear Avenue.
16 Q Who attended those types of training meetings?
17 A The majority of the inspectors and supervisors.
18 Q Do you remember who it was or what organization
19 came to those meetings that Mr. Dawkins had
20 invited there?
21 A I believe Section 8 was one of them. I think we
22 had a meeting with the licensing, the LIEP
23 office, and the fire department.
24 Q Let's focus on the fire department. What do you
25 remember about that particular meeting training
56
1 meeting?
2 A Not much.
3 Q Do you remember who came over from the fire
4 department who to do the training?
5 A No, I don't.
6 Q Do you remember how many fire inspectors came
7 over?
8 A No I don't.
9 Q Were they fire inspectors?
10 A I don't know.
11 Q Do you remember the topics of discussion from
12 that particular meeting?
13 A Nope.
14 Q How about the meeting with the LIEP, licensing
15 inspection environmental protection employees or
16 officials, do you recall anything about that
17 meeting?
18 A Nope.
19 Q Do you remember the subjects discusses during
20 that meeting?
21 A No.
22 Q What time period was the meeting with LIEP
23 officials? Was that early on in your career as
24 a code enforcement officer or more recent?
25 A I think it was either 2003 or 2004 but I don't
57
1 remember. It was a long time ago.
2 Q So either 2003 or 2004 you recall a meeting with
3 the LIEP officials and the code inspectors.
4 Correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Then let's focus on the Section 8 training
7 meeting you had. What do you recall about that?
Page 25
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
8 A He invited someone from Section 8 to talk about
9 what programs they have.
10 Q You're talking about Mr. Dawkins had invited
11 someone from Section 8 to talk about the
12 programs that they had?
13 A Right.
14 Q Was the individual from Section 8 an official or
15 was the individual an inspector?
16 A I have no idea.
17 Q But you indicated that earlier that you thought
18 it related to Section 8 inspections? Is that
19 what you recall?
20 A I just know that it was Section 8. I'm not sure
21 if it was inspections or programs or what
22 exactly it was.
23 Q Where did that meeting take place?
24 A In the Bingo Hall on White Bear Avenue.
25 Q Who was present the appear at that meeting?
58
1 A I don't remember. It was the majority of the
2 inspectors and supervisors.
3 Q You're saying usually the meetings that you've
4 described with LIEP with section 800 and with
5 fire prevention would include a majority of the
6 inspectors and supervisor?
7 A Correct note usually note.
8 Q In this case with Section 8 do you believe that
9 that was the case as well where the majority of
10 the inspectors and super rise oars from your
11 office would have been there?
12 A Yes.
13 Q How many individuals were there Section 8 that
14 were at that meeting?
15 A I don't recall.
16 Q Do you remember anything about the meeting at
17 all?
18 A No, I don't.
19 Q Do you remember Mr. Dawkins having the Section 8
20 inspectors over at the White Bear office at any
21 time during 20042002 to 2004?
22 A I don't know that they were inspectors. I just
23 know he invited someone from Section 8 to come
24 out for a meeting.
25 Q Do you remember that the Section 8 inspectors
59
1 provided cards to the inspectors from your
2 office?
3 MS. SEEBA: Objection, form.
4 A I don't recall that.
5 Q Do you ever remember meeting any Section 8
6 inspectors at any time since 2000 when you
7 joined as a code inspector?
8 A Not that I can remember.
9 Q Could it happen you just don't recall?
10 A That is correct.
11 Q Did you ever meet Rita Ander from Section 8 at
12 the Public Housing Agency?
13 A No, not that I recall.
14 Q Let's go back to your training. Did you have
15 any training during the 2000 time period forward
16 with regard to what constituted a violation
Page 26
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
17 Chapter 34 as it related to exteriors of
18 properties?
19 A Can you clarify that?
20 Q Well you use Chapter 34 do you not as an
21 inspector when you look at exterior properties
22 in the city?
23 A Yes.
24 Q What is your understanding of Chapter 34?
25 MS. SEEBA: Objection.
60
1 Q As it relates to the code inspector role that
2 you have?
3 MS. SEEBA: Form.
4 A That I'm there to do inspections if I have a
5 complaint.
6 Q But do you look at Chapter 34 when you're on a
7 complaint or do you use it as a basis I should
8 say for handling the complaint?
9 A I guess I'm not sure what your question is.
10 Q What do you use as a source as to whether or not
11 there is or is not a code violation on an
12 exterior of a home?
13 A Chapter 34 pretty much states what is and what
14 isn't.
15 Q Let's go back. When was the first time you
16 recall looking at Chapter 34 of the city's
17 legislative code from the time that you started
18 in 2000 as a code inspector?
19 A I believe I pulled it up on the Internet before
20 my interview for the position.
21 Q Who did you bur view with in order to take a
22 position with the city's code enforcement?
23 A I don't recall who was all -- it was a panel
24 interview.
25 Q How many interviews did you go there you
61
1 through?
2 A I believe it was just one.
3 Q Prior to your interview you pulled up Chapter 34
4 and looked through the particular codes?
5 A Correct.
6 Q Did you look at the entire Chapter 34 provision
7 before you your interview?
8 A I don't recall.
9 Q How many times after have you looked at Chapter
10 34?
11 A Many times.
12 Q Many times. Do you maintain a personal copy of
13 that in your files?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Do you update that?
16 A No.
17 Q So what version do you have of Chapter 34 in
18 your personal file that you use?
19 A I have no idea.
20 Q When is the last time you looked to see what
21 version it was?
22 A I re printed a copy probably 6 months ago.
23 Q Do you have a policy of printing updates for
24 Chapter 34 for your use in the field as an
25 inspector?
Page 27
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
62
1 A I'm not aware of anything.
2 Q So has there ever been a policy that you know of
3 in code enforcement where the inspectors are
4 told to make sure they had the current copy of
5 Chapter 34?
6 A It's possible. I'm not aware of it.
7 Q You don't recall any supervisorr making a point
8 to you that you should have a current copy of
9 the code?
10 A I don't recall that.
11 Q What other sources do you use as a code
12 inspector to make a determination whether there
13 is a code violation on an exterior of a property
14 in the City of St. Paul besides Chapter 34?
15 A Again I'm not sure what you're asking.
16 Q Do you understand the question? What source do
17 you use for making a determination on a property
18 that there is a code violation? You indicated
19 that you looked at Chapter 34. Is there
20 anything else you look at in order to make that
21 determination?
22 A Not that I can think of.
23 Q You mentioned that you looked at the 2002 rules
24 of procedures that Mr. Dawkins put together.
25 You said you had a quick glance at it?
63
1 MS. SEEBA: Objection that's not
2 what she said.
3 Q Do you use that as well in your role as a code
4 inspector?
5 A At times that is a guideline, yes.
6 Q Do you maintain a personal copy of that in your
7 files?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Do you keep copy of the rules and procedures
10 that Mr. Dawkins put in place with you when you
11 make inspections in the field?
12 A No.
13 Q Do you keep that back at your office?
14 A Yes.
15 Q How many different rules and procedures versions
16 of those rules and procedures do you recall Mr.
17 Dawkins having put in place?
18 A I don't recall.
19 Q Do you know if it was more than one?
20 A I don't know.
21 Q How many different copies of the rules and
22 procedures do you recall having yourself?
23 A I have 1.
24 Q Do you know what the date is on that particular
25 rules and procedures?
64
1 A No, I don't.
2 Q When is the last time you looked at the rules
3 and procedures?
4 A I don't remember.
5 Q What is the title of your position as a code
6 inspector when you first took over, when you
7 first took the position in 2000?
Page 28
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
8 A I believe it was environmental health inspector.
9 (Deposition Exhibit No. 1 was
10 marked for identification.)
11 Q I'm showing you what is the court reporter
12 marked as Martin Exhibit 1. Take a look at that
13 Bates number STP 442 to 443.
14 A Witness examining document.
15 Q Do you know when this particular document was
16 actually prepared by the city?
17 A No I don't.
18 Q Have you ever seen this before?
19 A It looks familiar.
20 Q Do you see the effective date on the first page
21 on the upper right that says 7/13/91?
22 A Correct.
23 Q Do you recall receiving a copy of this when you
24 were applying for the position as code
25 enforcement officer?
65
1 A I did receive something similar I don't know if
2 this is the exact 1.
3 Q But you recall a document that indicated what
4 the particular position was that you were
5 applying for would involve. Correct?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And what the qualifications were as well?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Turn to the second page if you would where it
10 says minimum qualifications do you recall what
11 the minimum qualifications were were told to you
12 by the people that were interviewing you?
13 A No.
14 Q Do you see here the minimum qualifications page
15 2 Bates 0443 where it says associates of art
16 degree with 15 credits. Did you have an
17 associates of arts degree when you applied?
18 A I have the credits, yes.
19 Q You had the credits?
20 A Yes.
21 Q But you didn't have an annual associate of arts
22 degree, did you?
23 A No.
24 Q You had 15 credits related to environmental
25 health at the time you applied for the code
66
1 enforcement position?
2 A Like I said I don't know if these were the
3 qualifications when I came on but --
4 Q There can be from what it looks like here you
5 could have either 15 credits related to
6 environmental health or one of the following.
7 Do you see the n3 numbers there?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Read those if yourself and tell me which one of
10 those you believe you qualified for under
11 minimum qualifications?
12 MS. SEEBA: Objection, foundation.
13 A Witness examining document.
14 Q Do you believe it was Number 3 there the two
15 years in experience in a position equivalent to
16 an environmental health inspector?
Page 29
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
17 A I don't know.
18 MS. SEEBA: Same objection.
19 Q Did you tell?
20 MR. SHOEMAKER: Let the record
21 reflect counsel and Ms. Martin have conferred.
22 MS. SEEBA: Let the record reflect
23 that I asked her if human resources was the
24 department that determined her qualifications
25 and not her herself. That's exactly what I said
67
1 to her.
2 Q Miss did you have any contact with human
3 resources during your interview with the
4 individuals that you said interviewed you as
5 part of the process for obtaining employment
6 with the city?
7 A I believe I received an application from human
8 resources.
9 Q And you filled out the application and then
10 provided that to who?
11 A Human resources.
12 Q My same question is: What was your understanding
13 as to how you met the minimum qualifications?
14 MS. SEEBA: Foundation.
15 Q Did you have an understanding as to how you met
16 the particular qualifications for the position
17 as environmental health inspector or as you
18 indicated code inspector?
19 MS. SEEBA: Same objection.
20 A No.
21 Q Did anyone that you interviewed with explain how
22 they believed you met the minimum
23 qualifications?
24 A Not that I recall.
25 Q Let's go back to the first page under general
68
1 duties. At the top of the page Bates 0442. It
2 indicates there that you invest complaints as a
3 environmental health inspector. Correct?
4 A Where a are you.
5 Q At the top of the page under general duties, do
6 you see that?
7 MS. SEEBA: Are you asking her if
8 that's what the document says?
9 MR. SHOEMAKER: I'm asking whether
10 or not she investigates complaints as an
11 environmental health inspector.
12 MS. SEEBA: So nothing relating to
13 this document but you want to know if she invest
14 gates the complaints.
15 MR. SHOEMAKER: It does relate to
16 the document it says general duties. I want to
17 know if she investigates complaints.
18 A What is your definition of investigating?
19 Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) This is the
20 description of your particular role as an
21 environment health -- is your current title with
22 the city environmental health inspector?
23 A I don't know.
24 Q What do you know as it relates to your title in
25 your role as a city employee?
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69
1 A I know that they are looking at combining
2 licensing and fire s in our department so I'm
3 not sure what our title is or going to be.
4 Q What has been your title for the last 6 years
5 besides environmental health inspector?
6 A I don't know what human resources has listed. I
7 put inspector. I have had environmental health
8 inspector. I have had problem property
9 inspector. I don't know if any of those have
10 officially been titles.
11 Q Do you have a badge that has been issued to you
12 as an employee for the City of St. Paul?
13 A Yes I do.
14 Q What does your current badge say?
15 A I don't know.
16 Q When is the last time you looked at it?
17 A Probably when I received it.
18 Q Do you take it with you in the field?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Do you do that every day?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Where do you carry the badge with you?
23 A You usually in my pocket or on my neck.
24 Q So you don't know what it says as you sit here
25 today?
70
1 A No, I don't.
2 Q Have you ever showed your badge to any property
3 owner?
4 A Yes.
5 Q When did you last do that?
6 A I don't know. Probably within the last six
7 months.
8 Q Can you describe the badge for me?
9 A It's two-sided. One has any photo and ID and
10 the other side has the actual badge.
11 Q Is it contained with a laniard so that you can
12 place it around your neck?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Does it have any metal portions on the badge?
15 A What do you mean by metal?
16 Q For example, do you know what a police badge
17 looks like?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Is it similar to a police badge?
20 A Yes.
21 Q So will it have the name City of St. Paul on the
22 badge?
23 A I believe so.
24 Q Does it have your badge number?
25 A I believe so.
71
1 Q Does it have code inspector written on it?
2 A It's possible. I don't know.
3 Q Your picture is on the back side of the badge?
4 A Right with my ID.
5 Q What type of ID?
6 A City of St. Paul.
7 Q You have an ID number?
Page 31
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
8 A I don't know.
9 Q What do you mean by ID?
10 A It's just says City of St. Paul. It's a photo
11 ID showing that you're an employee of the city.
12 Q But you're not sure if it has an ID number on
13 it?
14 A I have no idea.
15 Q Read aloud if you would under general duties
16 that paragraph slowly.
17 A Perform skill Tecca come work involved in
18 investigating complaints and conducting
19 inspections of public and private facilities to
20 determine complaints of public health and safety
21 regulations and orders understand and performs
22 related duties as required.
23 Q Is that what you have done as an environmental
24 health inspector since 2000 for the city?
25 A Yes.
72
1 Q Describe for me the work you do as it relates to
2 investigating complaints in your role as an
3 environmental health inspector?
4 A My respond to a complaint to see if it's valid
5 or not.
6 Q How do you obtain complaints as an inspector?
7 A There is a variety of ways to receive
8 complaints. It could be a neighbor calling in.
9 It could be a police department calling in.
10 Q So do you receive complaints directly from
11 neighbors?
12 A Often times, yes.
13 Q In 2000 when you became an employ for the City
14 of St. Paul, did you have a cell phone?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Who provided with you a cell phone?
17 A I believe our department.
18 Q Have you had a cell phone provided to you as an
19 inspector since 2000?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And you've always maintained a cell phone with
22 you during your work as an inspector?
23 A Usually, yes.
24 Q Do you have voice mail capabilities as well?
25 A Yes.
73
1 Q Have you had voice mail capabilities since you
2 first received a cell phone with the City of
3 St. Paul in 2000?
4 A I don't recall.
5 Q When do you recall having voice mail
6 capabilities first as an inspector?
7 A Couple years ago.
8 Q Do you obtain from time to time messages from
9 property owners on your voice mail?
10 A Yes.
11 Q What has been your protocol as far as for how to
12 respond to those type of messages that are left
13 by property owners on your voice mail?
14 A Describe what type of message.
15 Q What type of messages do you receive from
16 property owners?
Page 32
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
17 A Many.
18 Q You receive complaints from property owners on
19 your voice mail?
20 A No.
21 Q How do you receive from property owners
22 personally?
23 A If I'm at a property, a neighbor may come out
24 and talk to me about another property.
25 Q So in person meetings with neighbors about a
74
1 property?
2 A Right.
3 Q How else do you receive personal or complaints
4 in person with property owners?
5 A In person?
6 Q Right. Other than if you're at a property and
7 another neighbor comes out and talks to you
8 about a another property.
9 A If I have been at a community meeting.
10 Q So at community meetings you may be approached
11 by neighbors about a property?
12 A Correct.
13 Q What type of community meetings are you talking
14 about?
15 A I have been to I believe their district counsel
16 meetings but I'm not sure.
17 Q You're not sure if they were titled district
18 council meetings?
19 A No I don't.
20 Q Could they have block club meetings?
21 A Probably.
22 Q How often do you go to block club meetings
23 neighbor type meetings?
24 A Maybe twice, three times a year.
25 Q Back in 2000 when you were doing 84 training did
75
1 any of your area inspectors take you to any
2 district council block club neighborhood
3 meetings that kind of thing?
4 A Not that I can remember.
5 Q When do you recall first going to any type of a
6 neighborhood meeting whether it was a district
7 council or block club or other neighborhood
8 meeting?
9 A There was a meeting off of Rice Street at a
10 coffee shop, and I believe that was -- I think
11 it was District 6 but I'm not sure.
12 Q What year was that?
13 A I think that was like 2002 possibly.
14 Q How long did that meeting take place that you
15 remember?
16 A I believe it was an hour and a half.
17 Q Who was present at that meeting?
18 A Greg Simbec^ SP. I'm not sure how you say his
19 last name.
20 Q Someone from the district council that was in a
21 leadership role?
22 A I don't know if it was with the district
23 council. It could have been the block club I'm
24 not sure. I was brand new to the department. I
25 don't remember the other people that were there.
Page 33
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
76
1 Q Do you remember how many people were at that
2 meeting?
3 A Probably like 10.
4 Q How many individuals that were employed by the
5 City of St. Paul were there besides yourself?
6 A I don't remember.
7 Q Was there anyone else that came with you from
8 the City of St. Paul to that meeting?
9 A Not from my department.
10 Q How about from any other departments?
11 A It's possible. I just was brand new so I didn't
12 know who those people were.
13 Q What do you recall being discussed during that
14 meeting?
15 A They were talking about neighborhood clean up.
16 Q Anything else that you recall about that meeting
17 as far as for discussions, topics that kind of
18 thing?
19 A Not that I can remember.
20 Q After that meeting did you go to any further
21 neighborhood meetings of any type?
22 A Daytons Bluff I have been to a couple meetings
23 there.
24 Q What was the first year where you went to a
25 Daytons bluff meeting?
77
1 A It was probably 2006.
2 Q Just this last year?
3 A Right.
4 Q You had than been to any Daytons bluff
5 neighborhood meetings of any type prior to that?
6 A No.
7 Q How about after the meeting that you indicated
8 was with Mr. Simbec, what was the next meeting
9 you went to anywhere in the city that was with a
10 neighborhood group of any type?
11 A I believe I met 1 more time with Mr. Simbec's
12 group.
13 Q What year was that?
14 A It was probably within that same year, 2002,
15 2003.
16 Q The second meeting that you had with that group,
17 what do you recall being discussed?
18 A They were trying to get volunteers to walk
19 through the neighborhoods.
20 Q Why did they need to you be there?
21 A I have no idea.
22 Q Did you have any role in discussions during that
23 meeting of any type?
24 A I don't remember.
25 Q You don't recall speaking at you will all?
78
1 A No.
2 Q Who invited you to that meeting?
3 A I was directed by the director of our department
4 to attend the meeting.
5 Q Who was that?
6 A Andy Dawkins.
7 Q So this would have been after Mr. Dawkins had
Page 34
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
8 joined the city as a code director?
9 A Correct.
10 Q What did he tell you was the reason that you
11 should be at that neighborhood meeting?
12 A I don't remember.
13 Q All you remember is that he told you to go to
14 the meeting?
15 A Correct.
16 Q Did you take any notes from that meeting?
17 A No I did not.
18 Q After that meeting did you have any further
19 meetings with any neighborhood group at any time
20 that Mr. Dawkins was a director?
21 A I may have. I don't remember.
22 Q So you can remember a couple of meetings with
23 the Daytons bluff housing group or neighborhood
24 group in 2006 and you can remember 2 meetings
25 with Mr. Simbec's ^ SP group but you don't
79
1 recall any other meetings with neighborhood
2 groups of any type?
3 A Nope.
4 Q Did you have any contact with any neighborhood
5 groups at the White Bear office after
6 Mr. Dawkins became a director?
7 A I don't believe so.
8 Q Did you get calls from any district council
9 members or any neighborhood groups while you
10 were inspector working under Mr. Dawkins?
11 A Not that I remember.
12 Q Could have happened you just don't recall?
13 A Possibly.
14 Q Let's go back to the general duties you're
15 talking about the inspections or I should say
16 investigating complaints and conducting
17 inspections. The complaints that you described
18 were complaints made directly to you when you
19 were out at a property. Did you ever receive
20 any complaints from district council or
21 neighborhood groups to you directly?
22 A Not that I can remember.
23 Q You don't remember anyone calling up from a
24 neighborhood group saying we have got a problem
25 property in our area and I want you to look at
80
1 it?
2 A That usually went to the director.
3 Q On the cases where it did not go to the
4 director, who did those calls go to?
5 A I don't know.
6 Q You said usually, how would you know that they
7 usually went there versus going there all the
8 time to Mr. Dawkins?
9 A I don't know that.
10 Q The other complaints that you'd receive how
11 would they get to you besides directly to either
12 your phone or to you in person at a property?
13 A Complaints would be generated through somebody
14 calling the citizens service office and a
15 complaint being generated.
16 Q So you'd be assigned a complaint from -- or that
Page 35
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
17 had been made to CSO?
18 A Correct.
19 Q How were those assignments made to you at the
20 time that Mr. Dawkins took over the directorship
21 and forward under his director ship?
22 A It depended on the area, whatever area an
23 inspector was assigned to.
24 Q So when Mr. Dawkins took over the code
25 enforcement office what was your current
81
1 position when he came on board?
2 A I was an environmental health inspector assigned
3 to an area.
4 Q What area was that?
5 A I believe it was off of Rice Street.
6 Q Prior to Mr. Dawkins joining the department in
7 2002, had that been your area of responsibility
8 since you joined code enforcement?
9 A I believe so.
10 Q What were the boundaries of your responsibility
11 for that area? Can you describe that for me
12 generally?
13 A What do you mean by boundaries?
14 Q If you had an area, you obviously had
15 boundaries?
16 MS. SEEBA: Geographic boundaries?
17 Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Geographic
18 boundary for an area of the city you were
19 responsible for.
20 A I don't remember what those boundaries were.
21 Q How many homes were within the area that you
22 were an area inspector?
23 A I don't know.
24 Q Do you know how many blocks were involved in
25 that area?
82
1 A Nope.
2 Q Do you remember anything generally about the
3 area that you were responsible for as it relates
4 to boundaries in general?
5 A Maryland avenue and Rice Street.
6 Q So that's a cross section. Describe the
7 furthest north that you would have been
8 responsible for?
9 A I don't remember.
10 Q How about the furthest south, do you remember
11 that area?
12 A No, I don't.
13 Q And you were working in this area for about two
14 years?
15 A I don't remember how long.
16 Q When you started in the year 2000, you indicated
17 that that particular area was your first area
18 that you were assigned to. Correct?
19 A Yes.
20 Q How many inspections did you perform in that
21 area prior to Mr. Dawkins joining the city?
22 A I don't know.
23 Q Were you working full tile?
24 A Yes.
25 Q So by full time how many hours a day were you
Page 36
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
83
1 working?
2 A 8 hours a day.
3 Q Did you have a car assigned to you?
4 A I believe at that time we had our own personal
5 vehicles.
6 Q And you were reimbursed for mileage and expense
7 were you?
8 A Correct.
9 Q Did you submit written logs to the city
10 indicating how many miles you had each day?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Describe that particular log entry that you
13 would have made on a daily basis or weekly basis
14 when ever you could get around to entering your
15 logs?
16 A I entered it on a daily basis. And I entered it
17 from the time I left our office to the first
18 site that I inspected to the next site all the
19 way through until I returned back to the office.
20 So it showed every site I was at.
21 Q So this was an ongoing process of updating your
22 log on a daily basis on an hourly basis
23 depending upon how long it took you at a
24 particular site. Correct?
25 A Correct.
84
1 Q Would you put the address down for, let's say,
2 the first visit that morning. Correct?
3 A Yes.
4 Q What else would you put on the log?
5 A Just the addresses that I visited and the
6 mileage it took from each location.
7 Q Then the date would be on the log as well?
8 A Correct.
9 Q So you could have more than one page of a log
10 for a day depending upon how many inspections
11 you had. Correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Then would you sign that and submit that to
14 someone at the end of the day? How did that
15 process work?
16 A I believe we turned them on in on a monthly
17 basis. It's been a long time. I don't
18 remember.
19 Q What would you call that particular document
20 from the 2000 forward time frame?
21 A I don't remember.
22 Q You don't remember what the --
23 A Vehicle log maybe.
24 Q I'm sorry?
25 A Vehicle log possibly.
85
1 Q So when you started with code enforcement, you
2 had vehicle, a vehicle log. How long did you
3 use that system where you had to fill out a
4 vehicle log for reimbursement for grower private
5 vehicle?
6 A Until I was assigned a city vehicle.
7 Q When was that?
Page 37
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
8 A I believe it was 2004 maybe.
9 Q So a couple years after Mr. Dawkins had joined
10 the department, you then were assigned a vehicle
11 by the city?
12 A Correct.
13 Q Did you use your personal vehicle the entire
14 time from when you joined code enforcement in
15 the year 2000 all the way up to 2004 or so when
16 you were assigned a city vehicle?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Did you fill out logs on a daily basis as you've
19 described during that entire time?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Where were those logs maintained?
22 A I don't know.
23 Q You would submit them, you think, on a monthly
24 basis?
25 A I believe so.
86
1 Q Who do you recall submitting those to?
2 A I believe it was the supervisor but I'm not
3 sure.
4 Q When you finished your training with the area
5 inspectors were you assigned a supervisor?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Who was that?
8 A I believe at the time it was John bets.
9 Q How long was he your supervisor?
10 A I don't remember.
11 Q Do you remember the next supervisor that you
12 had?
13 A Harold Robinson.
14 Q Do you remember the year that you were assigned
15 Mr. Robinson as a supervisor?
16 A No, I don't.
17 Q Have you had any other supervisor?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Who was that?
20 A Steve Magner.
21 Q When was Mr. Magner assigned to be your
22 supervisor?
23 A I believe it was 2002.
24 Q What was Mr. Magner's role at the time you were
25 assigned to work with him?
87
1 A I don't understand your question.
2 Q What was his position with the city when you
3 were assigned to work with him?
4 A I don't know. I believe he was a supervisor.
5 Q With code enforcement. Correct?
6 A I don't know. You'd have to ask him.
7 Q Was he officed in your same office when you were
8 assigned to him?
9 A Yes.
10 Q He was going to be your supervisor in code
11 enforcement?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Any other supervisors that you've had?
14 A Not that I recall.
15 Q Let's go back to Mr. Bets as a supervisor. What
16 do you recall his role as a supervisor over your
Page 38
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
17 work? How did he do his supervision of you?
18 What do you recall about that?
19 A I think similar no matter which supervisor you
20 have. You turn your work into the supervisor on
21 a daily basis.
22 Q Let's go back to when Mr. Betz was your
23 supervisor. You would create a daily log as you
24 indicated for mileage reimbursement purposes
25 that would show the properties you went to for
88
1 each day. Would you turn that to your
2 supervisor?
3 A With the files, yes.
4 Q What are you referring to when you say files?
5 A Any property that I was at I usually note on the
6 file inspection notes.
7 Q So there is a paper hard copy file for each of
8 the properties that the city has code
9 enforcement history for. Correct?
10 A I believe so.
11 Q So when you went out on a property, I should say
12 out in your role as an inspector during the day,
13 you would have your log that you referred to.
14 Correct?
15 A Yes.
16 Q That would be with you in your vehicle.
17 Correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q What other documents would you have when you
20 left the office to start your inspection
21 starting in the year 2000?
22 A Whatever complaints that had come in I would
23 have that information with me as well.
24 Q You'd have the paper copy of those complaints?
25 A Correct.
89
1 Q What form were the complaints in in paper copy
2 for you?
3 A What do you mean?
4 Q Were they handwritten notes? Were they e-mails?
5 Were they printed up? Describe that for me.
6 A They were usually on a form that showed the
7 complaint, the address, the date it came in.
8 Q What the complaint was?
9 A Right.
10 Q How would you organize those within your
11 vehicle? Did you have a clipboard?
12 A I did.
13 Q Did you have blank inspector notes that you
14 could use in writing comments and observations?
15 A Yes.
16 Q When you made an observation in response to a
17 complaint, did you then write at the property
18 notes about what you observed?
19 A Sometimes, yes.
20 Q What would you do other times?
21 A I may make the notes at a different location.
22 Q So you may leave a property having observed --
23 made some observations and go to the next
24 property and then write the notes about the
25 previous property?
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MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
90
1 A Possibly or go back to the office to make the
2 notations.
3 Q What other documents did you have with you when
4 you left the office during your daily
5 inspections beside the vehicle log and any
6 complaint documentation you had with you on your
7 clipboard?
8 A I had brochures listing resource information.
9 Q Describe those for me in the year 2000.
10 A Oh, in 2000, I just had regular fliers with
11 information on recycling where people can get
12 recycling, different fliers that they had in
13 their office.
14 Q Any flies with regard to financial resources
15 available for property owners that were having
16 difficulty affording repairs?
17 A I believe it was Minnesota housing or funding
18 that I did have that as well.
19 Q This was during the first year you were code
20 inspector?
21 A Correct.
22 Q Any other documents you would have had with you
23 besides these fliers?
24 A Summary abatement forms, correction notices.
25 Q Standard forms you could write onto while you
91
1 were in the field?
2 A Correct.
3 Q Any other documentation you would have with you?
4 A Not that I can recall.
5 Q Did you have any type of field manual with you
6 when you were in the field?
7 A No.
8 Q When you investigated complaints, what was your
9 standard practice in 2000? How you'd do that?
10 You'd take the complaint report. I assume you'd
11 go in the field. Correct?
12 A Correct.
13 Q Then what would do you?
14 A Go to the address and see if what is listed on
15 the complaint was valid or not.
16 Q So you'd make a physical inspection of the
17 property by getting out of the vehicle that
18 you'd arrived in. Correct?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Then you'd do a walk around on the exterior of
21 the property?
22 A Yes.
23 Q What other process did you go through and
24 investigating the complaints back in 2000
25 besides that?
92
1 A It depends on what the complaint was.
2 Q Did you try to contact the owner about the
3 complaint back in the year 2000?
4 A Which complaint?
5 Q Let's say any type of complaint on a property.
6 Someone owned the property I would assume.
7 Correct?
Page 40
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
8 A I would assume.
9 Q Did you make an attempt to contact the owner on
10 complaints that you received back in the year
11 2000?
12 A I believe so, yes.
13 Q How would you get the ownership information to
14 be able to contact an owner?
15 A It was usually printed on the complaint form.
16 Q Was there a phone number typically there as
17 well?
18 A No.
19 Q Back in the year 2000 did you make any attempt
20 to locate the phone numbers for property owners
21 before you went out and investigated the
22 complaint?
23 A I don't recall.
24 Q Do you recall if sometimes on the complaint
25 there was the phone number for property owners?
93
1 A I don't remember.
2 Q Did you look at any source of ownership
3 information in the office in order to determine
4 who was the owner prior to investigating a
5 complaint during the 2000 time frame?
6 A I don't remember.
7 Q When you went out to a property did you knock on
8 the door of the property?
9 A I may have.
10 Q Did you try to talk to the occupants of the
11 property about the complaints?
12 A I may have.
13 Q Did you have -- was there any discussion by
14 Mr. Betz as a supervisor of you initially that
15 it was his recommendation that you attempt to
16 contact owners of properties about complaints in
17 order to handle the complaint as an inspector?
18 A He may have. I don't recall that.
19 Q You don't remember that being stressed by
20 Mr. Betz?
21 A No, I don't.
22 Q Did any of your other supervisors, Mr. Robinson
23 or Mr. Magner, ever stress that you should
24 attempt to contact the owners about complaints
25 in order to resolve them?
94
1 A They may have. I don't recall that.
2 Q Did you personally in the year 2000 as an
3 environmental health inspector, make it a
4 practice to try to contact the owners to resolve
5 the issue on the property?
6 A Yes.
7 Q How would you do that?
8 A Knock on the door to see if I could reach
9 somebody that was there at the property to find
10 out if it was a rental property or not, talk to
11 the person that's there. Like I said usually on
12 the complaint it would show who the owner was we
13 would mail notification to the owner as well as
14 to the occupant.
15 Q During the year 2000, was there a focus in your
16 department on providing written notice to the
Page 41
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
17 owner of the property about any particular code
18 violation that you observed as an inspector?
19 A I don't remember what the focus was in 2000.
20 Q Do you remember contacting owners on a frequent
21 basis about complaints on their properties
22 during 2000?
23 A I don't remember.
24 Q Do you remember that when Mr. Dawkins took over
25 that there was an emphasis placed on providing
95
1 written documentation on code observations?
2 A No, I don't recall that.
3 Q On code violations that inspectors were
4 observing during Mr. Dawkins's directorship was
5 there an emphasis on writing up the properties
6 to give notice to the owner?
7 A Not that I recall.
8 Q You don't recall any discussion with Mr. Dawkins
9 that he wanted you to document the code
10 violations that you were observing during the
11 time he was a director?
12 A No.
13 Q Do you recall Mr. Dawkins using the phrase call
14 everything?
15 A Yes.
16 Q When was the first time you heard Mr. Dawkins
17 use that phrase?
18 A I don't remember.
19 Q Was it shortly after he took over director ship
20 of the code enforcement for the city?
21 A I'm not sure.
22 Q Let me ask you a question about when Mr. Dawkins
23 first took over as a director. What do you
24 recall about that? Did he have a meeting with
25 all the inspectors?
96
1 A He had a lot of meetings. I'm not sure.
2 Q You don't remember when he came in as a
3 director?
4 A No.
5 Q You don't remember the first day that he was a
6 director of your particular code enforcement
7 office?
8 A No I don't.
9 Q Do you remember when he was an aid to the Mayor
10 prior to the office being changed in name to
11 neighborhood housing property improvement?
12 A No.
13 Q Do you recall what your role was with the city
14 code inspection department in the summer 2002, a
15 little over two years after you started with
16 code enforcement?
17 A I believe at that time I was considered by Andy
18 Dawkins as a problem property inspector.
19 Q When did you first have a meeting with Mr.
20 Dawkins about problem properties?
21 A I don't recall. I believe it was around the
22 same time mark Wiegel, officer Wiegel, was
23 assigned to our department.
24 Q Prior to your discussion with Mr. Dawkins about
25 problem properties, what had been your area of
Page 42
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
97
1 inspection duties?
2 A I believe I covered that. I was an area
3 inspector off of Rice Street.
4 Q So that was your area of responsibility at the
5 time that Mr. Dawkins started to talk to you
6 about problem property unit?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Note problem property note?
9 Q When did you have a discussion with Mr. Dawkins
10 about what he wanted you to do?
11 A I don't recall when it was.
12 Q Do you know where the meeting was?
13 A I believe at 1600 White Bear Avenue.
14 Q Do you know who else was at the meeting with
15 Mr. Dawkins and you?
16 A I don't remember.
17 Q Do you remember anything about what Mr. Dawkins
18 explained to you was his view of what you should
19 be doing in the problem property unit?
20 A No.
21 Q You just remember that Officer Wiegel had been
22 transferred over to code enforcement around that
23 time?
24 A Correct.
25 Q Did you have any discussions with anyone else
98
1 about Mr. Dawkins wanting to form the problem
2 property unit?
3 A No.
4 Q Did your official position title change when you
5 started working for the problem property unit?
6 A I don't know if it officially changed.
7 Q What did you believe your title was then as it
8 related to Mr. Dawkins problem property work?
9 A That I was the problem property inspector.
10 Q Were you the sole problem property inspector
11 under Mr. Dawkins' leadership of code
12 enforcement?
13 A Steve Magner was also considered the other
14 inspector.
15 Q So you had two problem property inspectors
16 within Mr. Dawkins problem property unit?
17 A Correct.
18 Q Was the group of people that were working with
19 Mr. Dawkins and problem property, were they
20 called problem property unit members? Is that
21 what it was?
22 A I believe so.
23 Q So you recall it being called the problem
24 property unit of the city code enforcement?
25 A Yes.
99
1 Q Who were the members of that besides Mr. Magner,
2 yourself, and Officer Wiegel?
3 A Officer Keenan and who ever the city attorney
4 was at that time.
5 Q From the start of the problem property unit all
6 of those individuals were a member of the
7 problem property unit?
Page 43
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
8 A Yes.
9 Q Do you remember the first meeting that you had
10 with the problem property employees?
11 A No.
12 Q How many meetings did you have with the problem
13 property employees during the summer of 2002?
14 A I don't recall how many.
15 Q Do you remember if they were daily meetings?
16 A All of us together? Is that what your question
17 is?
18 Q Well let's say a group of you together talking
19 about problem properties. How often did that
20 happen during the summer of 2002?
21 A I don't remember.
22 Q How did your job duties on a daily basis change
23 from your area of responsibility to when you
24 became a member of the problem property unit?
25 A I no longer had an area. I responded throughout
100
1 the city.
2 Q Did you also have a full time job duties similar
3 to when you were an area inspector so you'd work
4 full time for the city?
5 A Yes, I was full time.
6 Q Did you have a car assigned to you at that time
7 or not?
8 A Yes, I did.
9 Q When you joined the problem property unit was
10 that the first time you had a car assigned to
11 you by the city?
12 A It's possible.
13 Q Is it also possible that you may have had a
14 period of time where you were working as a
15 problem property member where you still had your
16 own car and you were using that car for your
17 transportation?
18 A It's possible. I don't remember when we
19 received our vehicle.
20 Q What is your understanding as to why Officer
21 Wiegel was transferred from the police
22 department to the problem property unit?
23 A My understanding was that he was running police
24 calls and just keeping track of what the problem
25 property unit was doing.
101
1 Q What was your understanding as to his background
2 at the time that he joined the problem property
3 unit?
4 A I didn't know his background.
5 Q Had you ever met him before?
6 A No, I had not.
7 Q Had you ever met Officer Keenan prior to his
8 joining the problem property unit?
9 A No, I had not.
10 Q While you were an inspector from the year 2000
11 to the time you were transferred to the problem
12 property unit, had you had any contact with any
13 St. Paul police department officers or employees
14 at any time?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Generally tell me about the kind of contact that
Page 44
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
17 you had had during that time frame?
18 A From what time frame?
19 Q From when you joined code enforce. And the two
20 of you became a member of the problem property
21 unit check?
22 A I run into officers at locations or see them at
23 lunch.
24 Q When you ran into them at locations, why was
25 that?
102
1 A If I was doing an inspection and they were in
2 the area responding to a call, I would stop and
3 say high.
4 Q At the time that we are talking about from 2000
5 until 2002 when you joined the problem property
6 unit did you have any friends on the St. Paul
7 police department?
8 A No.
9 Q Did you have any friendly acquaintances on the
10 department during that time frame?
11 A What do you remember friendly acquaintance?
12 Q Do you know a friend instead of someone --
13 A No.
14 Q So do you know the difference between a friend
15 and someone that you're just friendly with?
16 MS. SEEBA: Objection form if you
17 have an idea please answer it.
18 A Could you --
19 Q You said you didn't have any friends. Did you
20 have anybody that you had frequent contact with
21 at the police department during 2000 to 2002?
22 A No.
23 MR. SHOEMAKER: Louise, let's take
24 about 10. My goal here is to go to about 1.
25 (Brief recess, 11:30-12:45).
103
1 Q Let's look back when you were working prior to
2 the problem property unit, 2000 to 2002. How
3 many inspections do you think you performed on
4 exteriors of properties in that two year period?
5 A As I stated earlier, I don't know.
6 Q How many inspections would you typically during
7 that period perform on exteriors of a property
8 on a daily basis?
9 A I don't know the exact number. It could range
10 from 5 to 15.
11 Q During the period of 2000 to 2002 the daily
12 number of inspections of exterior properties as
13 a code inspector in your work for the city would
14 range from 5 to 15 inspections?
15 A It could it depends on the complaints.
16 Q You were working five days a week were you in
17 your role as a code inspector during that time?
18 A Correct.
19 Q How many miles did you typically have on your
20 log on a monthly basis, do you remember that?
21 A I don't remember.
22 Q How many miles would you typically drive in the
23 city on a daily basis from 2000 to 2002?
24 A I don't know the exact number but it could be
25 10.

1 Q 10 miles?
2 A Sure, 10 or more.
3 Q Where was your office located during the 2000 to
4 2002 time frame before the office was moved up
5 to White Bear Avenue?
6 A 722 Payne Avenue.
7 Q Where is that located generally in the city?
8 What year?
9 A Payne and Minnehaha.
10 Q What area of the city is that called?
11 A I don't know.
12 Q Is it central location?
13 A I don't know what you'd call it.
14 Q Was the office there the entire time that you
15 were a health environmental health inspector
16 prior to becoming a problem property unit
17 inspector?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And you'd start your day at that office, would
20 you?
21 A Correct.
22 Q And then you'd drive out into your area of
23 inspections. Is that right?
24 A Correct.
25 Q Did you also do sweeps during that two year

1 period prior to Mr. Dawkins being a director of
2 code enforcement?
3 A I don't remember when the sweeps were but yes I
4 have participated in sweeps.
5 Q So your answer is yes you participated in sweeps
6 during the period of 2000 through when Mr.
7 Dawkins first became a director?
8 A My response was I don't remember when the dates
9 were of those sweeps but I have participated in
10 sweeps.
11 Q Do you recall being a participant as a code
12 inspector environmental health inspector in the
13 City of St. Paul at any time prior to Mr.
14 Dawkins becoming a director or head of code
15 enforcement?
16 A I don't remember.
17 Q It's possible you may have been involved in a
18 sweep you just don't recall?
19 A That is correct.
20 Q But you do recall being involved in sweeps after
21 Mr. Dawkins took over control of code
22 enforcement in 2002?
23 A Yes.
24 Q How many times did you go on sweeps after he
25 took over direction of the code enforcement?

1 A I don't know.
2 Q I want to go back to your role as a dispatcher
3 for the police department. How long of a period
4 was it that you worked as a dispatcher?
5 A I believe 1 year.
6 Q And that was a full time position?
7 A Correct.

8 Q Did you handle calls on the 911 system from all
9 over the City of St. Paul?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And then you'd dispatch officers to handle those
12 calls across the city?
13 A Correct.
14 Q Did you have any training as to the geographical
15 areas of the city in order to take the position
16 as a dispatcher?
17 A No.
18 Q Was it your role as a dispatcher to get the
19 address from the particular caller?
20 A Yes or a cross street.
21 Q What sources of information did you have as a
22 dispatcher to make sure that that address was in
23 fact the right address so you could properly
24 dispatch an officer to the call?
25 A I entered whatever the caller gave me.

1 Q Did you have a map that you were using as well
2 to cross reference during your call with the 911
3 caller?
4 A No it automatically comes up when it's 911.
5 Q What the address is?
6 A Correct.
7 Q Then you'd relay that address to the officer?
8 A I would rely it to who ever was dispatching it
9 to the officer when I was taking the calls.
10 Q When you became a code inspector and you were
11 working in your assigned area, how many other
12 inspectors did you ever work with you in that
13 particular area that you can recall?
14 A What do you mean by worked with me?
15 Q In any role other than your supervisor,
16 Mr. Betz, were there any other inspectors that
17 worked in your area at any time during the two
18 year period?
19 A Not that I'm aware of.
20 Q So you were assigned that area as your exclusive
21 area to enforce the city codes in?
22 A Correct.
23 Q Did you have any problem properties by using
24 that term, any property that was a problem to
25 you in that area, during those two years prior

1 to Mr. Dawkins coming on board?
2 MS. SEEBA: Objection form you're
3 talking about -- you're completely off of
4 problem properties as it defined. You're asking
5 her opinion.
6 Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) That's my question
7 during the time you were a code inspector for
8 the area you defined prior to Mr. Dawkins coming
9 on board, were there any problems that you had
10 that were out of the ordinary where you get a
11 complaint and you go out and you deal with the
12 complaint where you considered a property to be
13 a problem to you?
14 A Not that I can recall.
15 Q As you sit here today for that two year period
16 you inspected properties in that assigned area
17 on a daily basis you don't remember any problems
18 in those areas that stood out from your normal
19 inspection duties on complaints?
20 A It was a long time ago. I do hundreds of
21 inspections so no I don't.
22 Q Is it fair to say that in any week during the
23 year 2000 that you may have conducted up to 100
24 inspections during that week?
25 A I don't know what the amount would be.

1 Q Did you ever have to fill out any type of report
2 during the year 2000 as to the number of
3 inspections you had conducted on properties in
4 your assigned area?
5 A Not that I recall.
6 Q That would include enter year and exterior
7 inspections? You didn't have to fill out any
8 report as to the numbers?
9 A Not that I recall.
10 Q Did you ever work with any of the inspections
11 that were assigned under the problem property
12 2000 initiative?
13 A I don't know what you're referring to.
14 Q How about Mr. Hawkins, did you ever work with
15 him?
16 A Who.
17 Q Jeff Hawkins.
18 A At code enforcement?
19 Q Right.
20 A I don't believe he was there when I was there.
21 Q How about with Mr. Joel Essling, did you ever
22 work with him?
23 A Joel still works in our office.
24 Q Did you work with him during the 2000 to 2002
25 time frame?

1 A He was in our office. But, no, I did not work
2 with him.
3 Q How about with Mr. Yanirelli ^ SP, did you ever
4 work with him during the 2000 to 2002 time
5 frame?
6 A Not that I recall. He was in our office at that
7 time.
8 Q When you were a code inspector between 2000 and
9 2002, did you have any discussions with anyone
10 concerning properties in the city that were
11 being managed by Mr. Yanirelli^ SP or
12 Mr. Lockins^ CHECK SP, Mr. Essling?
13 A Not that I recall.
14 Q When you joined the problem property unit, was
15 it your understanding that your role was to deal
16 only with problem properties?
17 A Yes.
18 Q How was the term problem properties defined to
19 you when you first started with the problem
20 property unit?
21 A I don't remember but I believe the definition
22 was posted on the web page.
23 Q So you don't remember yourself being told what
24 the definition would be for you to use in
25 dealing in your role as a code inspector in the; 12:55 AM
Anonymous said...: This babe is a loony tune....she gets asked if she investigates complaints and she has to have the examiner tell her what investigate means! They trust this level of inteligence to determine code violations?; 3:34 AM
Anonymous said...: Apparantly Lisa Martin aka Mrs.William Bergman, aka Jefferson aka Mrs. Aaron Foster line 20,21,22 aka Franklin Martin does not appear to be QUALIFIED or College Educated to be in her current position at DSI Is she "token" employee to coverup massive abuses
Issues: Aaron Foster Murder Trial,Police Impound Lot held by Judge Cleary, currently on State Canvass Board

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Aaron+Foster+POlice+Impound+Lot+mn&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=
Please remember Betty Speaker

http://www.goldparty.org/speaker.html; 8:30 AM
Anonymous said...: ...maybe that is because she doesn't "investigate" complaints, she performs inspections...

I do enjoy reading all of this because it does give you the sense that the attorney for the plaintiffs never did have any case and spent four years fishing for anything that they could. A lot of this questioning was designed to question the credibility of Martin, what was her experience, why was she hired, who did she know... and the point is?

If Martin wasn't credible or wasn't as qualified as someone could be this would do what to prove a conspiracy, a RICO case or a Fair Housing Case... nothing.

But, they just kept on fishing away, because the Federal bench on this one gave them every opportunity possible to try to find something...anything to make a case with.

JMONTOMEPPOF

Chuck Repke; 8:42 AM
Bob said...: Lisa, you know me. Mikes friend Bob. :-)

It's been a long time but I haven't forgotten you.; 10:22 AM
Bob said...: There maybe copy errors.

23 Q So you don't remember yourself being told what
24 the definition would be for you to use in
25 dealing in your role as a code inspector in the problem property unit when Mr. Dawkins first
2 started?
3 A It may have been. No, I don't recall.
4 Q It may have been defined to you you just don't
5 recall it?
6 A Correct.
7 Q At some point did you reach an understanding as
8 to what constituted a problem property within
9 the problem property unit?
10 A Again, I don't recall the specifics but it was
11 normally a property that had many code
12 violations and/or police issues.
13 Q So it could just have police issues and not have
14 code violations and it could still be a problem
15 property?
16 A Objection foundation.
17 Q ?
18 A I don't know.
19 Q That's what you just said. And/or you said it
20 cash --
21 MS. SEEBA: The record will reflect
22 what she said. If you have a question ask it.
23 Q My question you to you is: You said that a
24 problem property could have code issues and/or
25 police issues?
112
1 MS. SEEBA: She said that was her
2 understanding.
3 Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Who gave you that
4 information where you reached that understanding
5 of what constituted a problem property?
6 A As I stated, Andy put together the unit and the
7 information was posted on the web site so I'm
8 not sure the exact definition of what a problem
9 property is.
10 Q Was it your understanding that the definition of
11 a problem property during the time you were a
12 member of the problem property unit from 2002
13 forward varied from neighborhood to
14 neighborhood?
15 A What do you mean varied?
16 Q Did you ever receive any information from
17 neighbors complaining that a property was a
18 problem for those neighbors?
19 A Not that I recall.
20 Q So you don't ever remember receiving any
21 complaint from any neighbor while you were a
22 member of the problem property unit that the
23 particular neighbor considered a property to be
24 a problem?
25 A Not that I recall.
113
1 Q Going back to the 20022000 to 2002 time frame,
2 you said you did not recall any property in your
3 assigned area having been a problem for you.
4 Was there any property that stood out in your
5 mind as a code inspector during that time frame
6 before you became a problem property unit
7 inspector?
Page 49
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
8 A Not that I can recall.
9 Q Did you have any properties during that two year
10 period where you had to go back to the property
11 more than once on a complaint?
12 A I may have. I don't recall.
13 Q Would it be important for you if you had to go
14 back to a property more than once on the same
15 complaint during the 2000 to 2002 time frame?
16 A What do you mean would it be important?
17 Q Well, if you had a complaint that came in a
18 second time about a property, would that be of
19 importance to you during the 2000 to 2002 time
20 frame?
21 MS. SEEBA: Objection form.
22 A I don't understand what your question is.
23 Q Well, you were supposed to deal with complaints
24 and then investigate complaints. Correct?
25 A Yes.
114
1 Q And that was the case during 2000 to 2002.
2 Correct?
3 A Yes.
4 Q So did you ever have a complaint about a
5 property that came in subsequent to the original
6 complaint that you had to deal with?
7 A I may have.
8 Q You just don't recall it as you sit here?
9 A Correct.
10 Q So is it your recollection that the complaints
11 were brought to your attention in your assigned
12 area during the 2000 to 2002 time frame were all
13 resolved by the owners upon your investigation
14 of the complaint?
15 A Can you repeat the question?
16 Q In the period 2000 to 2002 is it your
17 recollection that when you dealt with complaints
18 that the owners resolved the complaints to your
19 satisfaction?
20 A I don't know. I'd have to look at the specific
21 file. I don't know how the complaints were
22 resolved.
23 Q About the did you ever have to go to your
24 supervisor at any time on a particular property
25 that you could not resolve as it related to a
115
1 complaint?
2 A Again, I may have. If you have a particular
3 file you'd like me to look at. I can't recall
4 back from 2000.
5 Q There is a two year period you were working in
6 your assigned area, did you have any
7 difficulties as a code inspector during that
8 time during that two year period with any of the
9 properties that you were working on?
10 A As I stated, I don't recall.
11 Q You don't recall if you ever had to go to a
12 supervisor on any of the properties in your
13 assigned area because there was an issue that
14 you felt was above your experience level?
15 A No.
16 Q Do you believe that you were able to handle all
Page 50
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
17 of the complaints that were made on your area of
18 responsibility for that two year period of 2000
19 to 2002 without having to involve any super
20 spurs?
21 A Again, I don't recall.
22 Q Did you ever have to go to the director of code
23 enforcement on any of your properties during the
24 period of 2000 to 2002?
25 A I don't recall.
116
1 Q That would stand out in your mind if you had to
2 have gone to the supervisor. Correct?
3 MS. SEEBA: Objection form.
4 A Clarify your question.
5 Q My question is if you had to go to the head of
6 code enforcement during 2000 to 2002 time frame,
7 you would recall that wouldn't you?
8 A Not necessarily.
9 Q You don't ever recall any discussions that you
10 had on a property in your assigned area with
11 Mr. Moorhead?
12 A Not that I can recall, no.
13 Q Do you remember having any discussion with any
14 properties in your assigned area with
15 Mr. Lippert during the 2000 to 2002 time frame?
16 A Not that I can recall, no.
17 Q How much would you have contact with the
18 occupants of the properties in your assigned
19 area in your daily activities between 2000 and
20 2002?
21 A As I stated it varies depending on what
22 property. I have no idea unless I look at the
23 file.
24 Q What do you remember when you were doing your
25 daily activities as a code inspector? Do you
117
1 remember when you went out in the field you
2 hardly ever saw anybody at the properties when
3 you arrived?
4 A I don't remember.
5 Q Do you remember that you saw people around
6 frequently when you arrived with your personal
7 vehicle to do your inspections?
8 MS. SEEBA: Objection form.
9 A I don't remember.
10 Q You don't any recollection as to how often on a
11 daily basis you would have any contact with any
12 occupant of any property in your daily
13 activities as an environment --
14 A I would be speculating unless you have a copy of
15 a file for me to look at I don't know how many
16 times I talked with any of the owners or
17 occupants.
18 Q Currently in your role how often do you talk
19 with owners of properties in your role as
20 inspector?
21 A It depends which file I'm working on.
22 Q How about on a daily basis, how many inspections
23 do you do on a daily basis currently?
24 A It varies day-to-day.
25 Q Is it still anywhere from 5 to 15?
Page 51
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
118
1 A Possibly.
2 Q So it might be more than that?
3 A Possibly.
4 Q Can you state whether or not you have frequent
5 contact or in frequent contact with occupants of
6 properties that you're inspecting currently?
7 MS. SEEBA: Form.
8 A If you have a specific address -- I don't know.
9 Q You don't have any idea currently as your role
10 as an inspector as to how often you have contact
11 with the public as you drive around as an
12 inspector?
13 MS. SEEBA: Form.
14 A Can you clarify your question?
15 Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Let's say in the
16 last six months. Have you worked as an
17 inspector in the city?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Do you use a vehicle to go out and drive to
20 properties?
21 A Yes.
22 Q How often as an inspector do you have contact
23 with the public in your role as an inspector in
24 your daily duties?
25 A I have contact on a daily basis -- when I fill
119
1 up with gas, I talk to people at the gas
2 station, at lunch. Oftentimes I speak with
3 owners or occupants. I don't have an exact
4 number how many people I talk to.
5 Q I'm not talking about people you talk to as a
6 gas station. I'm talking about people you talk
7 to in your role as an inspector on their
8 properties. In the last six months, how
9 frequent has that contact been with the public?
10 MS. SEEBA: Asked and answered.
11 A I would be speculating. I don't know.
12 Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) You don't have any
13 idea as to how often --
14 MS. SEEBA: If you have a file and
15 want to ask her about how often she's talked to
16 someone --
17 MR. SHOEMAKER: I don't need to use
18 a file.
19 MS. SEEBA: She's answered you.
20 Let's move on. She doesn't remember.
21 Q That's the last six months. How about during
22 the time Mr. Dawkins was a director. Ms.
23 Martin, how often did you have contact with the
24 public in your role as an inspector on a daily
25 basis?
120
1 A Again, I could have had contact on a daily basis
2 with one person, ten people. I don't know.
3 Q So would it be safe to say that every day that
4 you were inspector you would have contact with
5 the public?
6 A No.
7 Q Some days you wouldn't have contact with the
Page 52
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
8 public as an inspector?
9 A Correct.
10 Q So you'd go out to a property, make your
11 observations write up your notes and at the end
12 of the day you may not have met any of the
13 occupants or owners of the property?
14 A That is correct.
15 Q Other days you may have met occupants and/or
16 owners of the property during your inspection
17 role. Correct?
18 A Correct.
19 Q Let's go back to Exhibit 1. Let me ask you
20 under general duties it describes not only
21 investigating complain but conducting
22 inspections of public and private facilities as
23 an environmental health inspector, describe for
24 me the inspections you've conducted on public
25 facilities since you've been an inspector?
121
1 A I don't know.
2 Q Do you recall any situation where you inspected
3 any publicly owned facilities in the City of
4 St. Paul since you've been an employee for the
5 city?
6 A Not that I know of.
7 Q If you went out on inspection you indicated you
8 would have the ownership information with you
9 prior to arriving at the address. Correct?
10 A In most cases, yes.
11 Q How often -- what percentage of the time do you
12 not have the ownership information with you when
13 you arrive at on a property on a complain?
14 A Not very often.
15 Q Most of the time you're going to have the
16 ownership information when you're actually
17 conducting the inspection to handle a complaint.
18 Correct?
19 A Yes.
20 Q So you don't recall any inspection that you
21 performed as an environmental health inspector
22 or any type of code inspector role on any
23 publicly owned facilities of any type?
24 A What do you remember publicly owned?
25 Q Let's break it down how about any city owned
122
1 property have you ever inspected city owned
2 properties?
3 A Not that I can recall.
4 Q Have you ever inspected any public housing
5 properties that you can remember at any time?
6 A I may have but I don't recall.
7 Q Would that stand out in your mind if you would
8 have inspected, let's say, a PHA scattered site
9 home or duplex?
10 A Would it stand out?
11 Q Right.
12 A No.
13 Q Do you remember being inside a single family
14 home that was owned by PHA?
15 A I don't recall.
16 Q You don't have any recollection of that?
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17 A No.
18 Q Do you know how many homes the PHA owns in the
19 City of St. Paul?
20 A No I do not.
21 Q Do you know if they own more than 100 homes?
22 A I don't know.
23 Q Do you know if they own 450 homes?
24 A I don't know.
25 Q Have you ever had any discussions with any of
123
1 your fellow inspectors since you joined the city
2 in the year 2000 as to the amount of homes that
3 the PHA owned in the City of St. Paul?
4 A No.
5 Q Do you know if the public housing agency owned
6 any homes in your area of responsibility as an
7 area inspector between 2000 and 2002?
8 A I don't know.
9 Q You don't remember ever making any type of an
10 investigation on a complaint on a PHA owned home
11 between period 2000 and 2002?
12 A I may have. I don't recall.
13 Q How about when you became a problem property
14 unit inspector, do you ever remember after that
15 time inspecting any PHA scattered site homes
16 single family duplexes that kind of thing?
17 A Again I may have. I don't recall.
18 Q Do you ever remember being inside a PHA home at
19 any time since the year 2000?
20 A Not that I can recall.
21 Q Do you remember any of your fellow inspectors
22 ever talking about the interiors of PHA
23 scattered site homes?
24 A No.
25 Q That would be the same answer for the period of
124
1 2000 to 2005?
2 A Which question?
3 Q The question is: Do you recall any of your
4 fellow inspectors ever talking about the
5 interiors of PHA homes during the period of 2000
6 to 2005?
7 A No.
8 Q Do you do do you remember Mr. Dawkins talking
9 about the condition of interiors of PHA homes
10 during the period of 2000 to 2005?
11 A No.
12 Q Anyone else in your office ever talk about the
13 condition of the interiors of PHA homes at any
14 time since you started working with the city?
15 A No.
16 Q Ever heard any hoe initials from the City of St.
17 Paul talk about the condition of PHA homes?
18 A No.
19 Q How about the exterior of PHA homes, have you
20 ever had any discussion with any of your fellow
21 inspectors about the condition of the exterior
22 of PHA homes at any time since you joined code
23 enforcement?
24 A I may have. I don't recall.
25 Q Nothing stands out in your mind?
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125
1 A No.
2 Q Do you remember conducting any inspection of any
3 HUD homes in the City of St. Paul since the year
4 of 2002?
5 A I may have. I don't recall.
6 Q Do you recall a discussion about a circuit court
7 case that went against the city with regard to a
8 property opened by HUD?
9 A No.
10 Q Mr. Dawkins never men mentioned that to you?
11 A No.
12 Q With regard to your superiors, you mentioned
13 Mr. Betz was your first supervisor and that he
14 was available for you to discuss issues.
15 Describe what his involvement was from a
16 standpoint of your daily activities.
17 A As I stated earlier, I would complete my
18 paperwork and turn it in to Mr. Betz.
19 Q The paperwork you completed would be your notes
20 from each of the properties you handled during
21 the day?
22 A Correct.
23 Q So was it your understanding that Mr. Betz as a
24 per super had to review your work?
25 A Yes.
126
1 Q And if you were making an observation in the
2 field as to code violations, was your supervisor
3 to review that determination?
4 A I don't know what his role was.
5 Q Did you have meetings with your supervisor,
6 Mr. Betz, during the time he was your
7 supervisor?
8 A I may have. I don't recall anything
9 specifically.
10 Q Did Mr. Betz have an office where you had an
11 office during that time period?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Where was his office located within the
14 structure of your office?
15 A What date?
16 Q During 2000 to let's say the summer of 2002?
17 A We were located at 722 Payne Avenue. We all had
18 cubicles.
19 Q So the supervisor would have a cubicle as well?
20 A Correct.
21 Q Where was his cubicle in relation to yours?
22 A Across from me.
23 Q So he was fully accessible to you?
24 A Yes.
25 Q What other type of documentation did you provide
127
1 to Mr. Betz as a unit supervisor besides the
2 notes that you would have wrote up during your
3 daily activities as an inspector?
4 A There could have been summary abatements.
5 Correction notices, photographs.
6 Q Describe the photographs that you would have
7 taken as an area inspector during 2000 to 2002.
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8 Why would you need to take photographs?
9 A If it was a complaint that was continuous or if
10 the property was in really poor shape.
11 Q So if you had a continuous exterior violation,
12 for example, you would take photographs at some
13 point to document that?
14 A Not all the time but often times yes.
15 Q Was that for enforcement purposes that you would
16 take the photographs?
17 A Ex sprain your question.
18 Q Why would you take photographs? What was the
19 purpose?
20 A For the file.
21 Q Who would look at the photographs in the file?
22 A I don't know.
23 Q Did your supervisor want to you take photographs
24 under certain circumstances?
25 A I don't recall.
128
1 Q Did you use the photographs that you would take
2 on properties in your area between 2000 and 2002
3 for purposes of court actions against property
4 owners?
5 A Possibly, yes.
6 Q What other purposes would you take the
7 photographs?
8 A I can't recall any other situations.
9 Q How about with legislative hearings would you
10 need photographs for appeals by property owners
11 on code issues?
12 A It's possible.
13 Q When you were working between the year 2000 and
14 2002, you were using a vehicle. Would you make
15 observations on properties as you drove around
16 your area as to the exterior conditions of
17 properties?
18 A Clarify that.
19 Q When you were in your vehicle driving through
20 neighborhoods, were you looking for external
21 code violations while you were driving through
22 the neighborhood?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Would you drive down the main street and then
25 drive through the Al ease? Describe how you'd
129
1 deal with that on a daily basis.
2 A It depend. If I'm responding to a complaint, I
3 would check out the other properties surrounding
4 this property.
5 Q You'd first on a complaint response you'd drive
6 to the specific address. Correct?
7 A Correct.
8 Q And then you'd make your observations about that
9 particular property. Correct?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Would you make observations about other
12 properties in the neighborhood during those
13 times that you were responding to a particular
14 complaint on a property?
15 A Yes.
16 Q How did you make the observations on other
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17 properties? Did you get out and walk?
18 A Often times, yes.
19 Q So you'd get out of your vehicle at the
20 particular complaint property correct?
21 A Correct.
22 Q And then you'd either do an external inspection
23 or try to contact the occupant. Correct?
24 A Correct.
25 Q And then would you frequently walk up and down
130
1 the street looking at other properties?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Would you also frequently walk through Al ease
4 during many time period?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Once you got to the end of the alley what would
7 you do come back to your car?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And then you'd either write notes or you'd go to
10 the next complaint address. Right?
11 A I would usually call them into the two 668989
12 number.
13 Q That was a number at the code head quarters?
14 A Correct.
15 Q What would call in?
16 A Whatever I noted.
17 Q About the other properties?
18 A Correct.
19 Q So you'd call in observations. Who at the
20 office would take that information?
21 A I don't know.
22 Q Was there one person or more than one person
23 that was in charge of receiving those calls from
24 you?
25 A I don't know.
131
1 Q Was it a voice mail that you left or was it
2 someone live?
3 A It was someone live.
4 Q This was during the period of 2000 to 2002?
5 A Correct.
6 Q How often would you when you were out at a
7 particular property conducting an inspection of
8 a complaint would you get out and do that
9 process of walking up and down the street
10 looking at properties and going through the Al
11 ease?
12 A I don't know.
13 Q Was it all the time or describe how frequently
14 you conducted that?
15 A I don't know I don't have an exact number.
16 Q Was it Mr. Dawkins that emphasized that when you
17 went on a complaint you should be in fact
18 checking other properties in the area for code
19 violations?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Do you think prior to Mr. Dawkins coming on
22 board that someone that was a supervisor to you
23 had emphasized that as well?
24 A I don't recall.
25 Q Was that something you learned in your training
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132
1 that you should be looking at other properties
2 beside the complaint property?
3 A I don't recall.
4 Q Have you ever worked in a role of referring
5 homes in the City of St. Paul to the vacate
6 building section of code enforcement?
7 A Yes.
8 Q When did you first start doing that?
9 A I don't remember note vacant note.
10 Q Was it the first year you started working as a
11 code inspector that you would have referred a
12 building to vacant buildings?
13 A It's possible.
14 Q How many times have you referred a building to
15 vacant buildings?
16 A I don't know the exact number.
17 Q Is it over 100 times you've done that since
18 you've been an inspector starting in 2000?
19 A I don't know the number.
20 Q But you do have the authority, as you understand
21 it, to refer a single family or a duplex
22 property to the vacant building section?
23 A Yes.
24 Q But you don't remember how many times you've
25 done that?
133
1 A Correct.
2 Q What would be the circumstances where you'd
3 refer a building to the vacate building section
4 of your office?
5 A If it's a vacant property.
6 Q How would you make that determination?
7 A If I'd visit the site and it's vacant.
8 Q Did you as an area inspector between 2000 and
9 2002 go out during your daily duties as an
10 inspector looking to see if properties in your
11 assigned area from vacant?
12 A I don't remember.
13 Q So you don't remember if that was part of your
14 role?
15 A No, I don't.
16 Q Look at typical duties as performed on as 442
17 ^ check.
18 We have talked about the first
19 bullet point there of examples of duties
20 performed in your position. But the second
21 bullet point there says, "Conducts routine
22 monitor inspections of unoccupied and vacant
23 buildings." You've indicated you referred
24 buildings to the vacant building members of your
25 office. Have you ever been assigned a role of
134
1 monitoring vacant buildings?
2 A No.
3 Q So your role has strictly been to refer a
4 building you thought was unoccupied and vacant
5 to the vacant building section in your office?
6 A Can you repeat the question.
7 Q You haven't monitored any vacant buildings
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MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
8 you've referred vacant buildings to the vacant
9 building section. Correct?
10 A Not necessarily. If I have a building that the
11 occupants have just moved out and they have, you
12 know, completed all the code deficiencies, there
13 may be a time period where there they are
14 waiting for another occupant to move?
15 Q How many times have you attended a legislative
16 hearing in the City of St. Paul regarding code
17 issues?
18 A Three or four times maybe.
19 Q Was that all during the period that Mr. Dawkins
20 was a director?
21 A I believe so.
22 Q Do you recall during those times whether or not
23 you provided photographs of the particular
24 property that the -- related to?
25 A I may have.
135
1 Q Have you ever assisted the police department in
2 a criminal investigation in any way?
3 A Not that I know of.
4 Q Let's go back to your work as a dispatcher for
5 the City of St. Paul in the police department.
6 Did you socialize with any of the members of the
7 police department during that period that you
8 were there for a year?
9 A With any members.
10 Q Yeah with any members of the police department.
11 A I was married -- my husband at the time worked
12 at the police department.
13 Q What was his position at the police department?
14 A Property room clerk.
15 Q How long had he worked at the police department?
16 A I don't know.
17 Q Let's turn to Exhibit 1 again under the first
18 heading competencies. What training have you
19 had as it relates to public health laws since
20 you became a code inspector?
21 A Can you clarify?
22 Q Well, have you had any training of any nature
23 regarding public health laws?
24 MS. SEEBA: Object form and
25 foundation.
136
1 A I'm not sure what those laws are. So I don't
2 know.
3 Q As an inspector since 2000, what type of laws do
4 you enforce?
5 A The city ordinances.
6 Q What are they? Generally what are they? You've
7 got Chapter 34 we talked about what other
8 ordinances do you enforce?
9 A Chapter 45.
10 Q Any others?
11 A Not that I can recall.
12 Q How about the building codes as you understand
13 that you apply as an inspector, which building
14 codes do you apply?
15 A I'd have to look at the chapters.
16 Q Other than the Chapter 34 and 45, is there any
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MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
17 other source that you have to refer to as an
18 inspector?
19 A There may be.
20 Q You have to make determinations regarding health
21 issues as it relates to the interiors of
22 properties as an inspector?
23 A What health issues are you referring to?
24 Q Well, what health issues do you see as an
25 inspector when you're out inspecting properties
137
1 and interiors of properties?
2 A You're asking what do I see when I go inside?
3 Q Right.
4 A It ranges.
5 Q What are the typical health issues that you see?
6 A Lack of smoke detectors, lack of water, lack of
7 electricity.
8 Q Unsanitary conditions?
9 A Often.
10 Q Any other health type issues that you see when
11 you conduct interior inspections?
12 A There could be rodents, roaches.
13 Q Anything else?
14 A I'm sure there could be.
15 Q Based on your experience, you've had better part
16 of 6 years experience as an inspector doing 5 to
17 15 inspections a day, sometimes more, sometimes
18 less. What type of things have you seen in
19 addition to what you described that would relate
20 to health issues on the interior properties?
21 A Probably animal feces.
22 Q Anything else that you can think of?
23 A Like I said I'm sure there is others I can't
24 think of any at this moment.
25 Q What kind of training have you had starting from
138
1 the year 2000 with regard to animal feces and
2 how that would adversely affect occupants of
3 properties?
4 A Can you clarify the question?
5 Q You.
6 **** READ BACK ****?
7 Q Do you understand that question?
8 A I don't think we have had formal training in
9 animal feces if that's the question.
10 Q What are your concerns as an environmental
11 inspector, health inspector, what are the
12 concerns that you have when you observe animal
13 feces in a property?
14 A Unsanitary conditions.
15 Q What level of animal feces do you have to see
16 before you'd have a concern as an environmental
17 health inspector on the interior of a property?
18 A If I'm looking at 1 pile versus the entire floor
19 being covered in animal feces, that's the
20 difference.
21 Q So there is a degree of animal feces where you
22 get to a point whereas a environmental health
23 inspector you're concerned about the health of
24 the occupants. Correct?
25 A Right.
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139
1 Q How about with regards to where you see animal
2 feces on the interior of a home, do you
3 typically give the occupants instructions to
4 clean up the animal feces?
5 A Yes.
6 Q How do you communicate those instructions?
7 A Verbally, send orders.
8 Q Would you attempt to give verbal instructions
9 first to the occupants?
10 A Absolutely.
11 Q Why is that?
12 A Because they are standing right there.
13 Q If the occupants said they would take care of it
14 what would you do to follow-up?
15 A Set another time to come back and check.
16 Q Would you always issue a written order?
17 A Not always.
18 Q So you may just trust the occupant to clean up
19 what you've pointed out and make sure you come
20 back and check if they've done it?
21 A Yes.
22 Q How about with regard to any infestation of
23 rodents, whether it's rats or mice. Is that
24 also a degree of infestation that would concern
25 you?
140
1 A Yes.
2 Q So if you saw some evidence of infestation, what
3 your typical response to that as far as it
4 relates to the occupants?
5 A Again, giving them notice to remove any type of
6 rodent harborage, sending orders obviously.
7 Q But you'd also ask them to Bates for mice or for
8 rats?
9 A Sure.
10 Q So while you were on the interior of a property
11 talking to the occupants, you would communicate
12 to the occupants that they should take
13 corrective action to eliminate the infestation?
14 A In it's an owner occupant, yes.
15 Q How about if it's a are not actual property and
16 you're talking to the tenant, what would be
17 different?
18 A I would let them know that I will notify the
19 owner.
20 Q Notify the owner to do what?
21 A To take care of the issue.
22 Q Again, someone that would have the
23 responsibility for rectifying the particular
24 issue that you've seen. Correct?
25 A Correct.
141
1 Q From the standpoint of animal feces or rodent
2 infestation, what type of training have you had,
3 whether it's formal training or some type of
4 coursework or any kind of classes have you had,
5 that would relate to any of those kind of
6 issues?
7 A I don't recall.
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MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
8 Q Do you ever remember going and taking any type
9 of course on how to determine if in fact there
10 was an infestation of rodents in a property?
11 A I don't remember.
12 Q Did you understand that Mr. Dawkins' rules and
13 procedures differentiated between an infestation
14 and a severe infestation in a property?
15 A Did I understand that?
16 Q Right.
17 A No.
18 Q You said that you had a copy of Mr. Dawkins'
19 rules and procedures once he formulated those in
20 2000. You're saying that you did not read the
21 difference that Mr. Dawkins had in his rules
22 concerning infestation versus severe
23 infestation?
24 A No, I don't recall that.
25 Q What was your understanding as to when a single
142
1 family or duplex could be condemned in the City
2 of St. Paul as it related to infestation of any
3 type of a rodent?
4 A I don't recall a property ever being condemned
5 based on just rodents.
6 Q Did you understand though that a property that
7 had severe infestation of rodents can be
8 condemned solely on that particular observation
9 by the inspector?
10 MS. SEEBA: Objection, foundation.
11 A Can you repeat the question?
12 Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Did you ever have
13 an understanding that a property in the City of
14 St. Paul could be condemned because it had a
15 severe infestation of rodents?
16 A No.
17 Q You didn't have an understanding as it related
18 to that?
19 A No.
20 Q Was it your understanding that a property would
21 have to have some other type of violation in
22 addition to a severe rodent infestation before
23 it could be condemned?
24 A Each case is different. I guess if I had a
25 question, I would bring it to my supervisor to
143
1 determine that.
2 Q If you saw a severe infestation of rodents you
3 would take that to your supervisor to see
4 whether or not that is a condemnable condition?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Was that the case from 2000 through 2005 in your
7 experience?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Any time that you condemned a property as an
10 environmental health inspector or as a code
11 inspector or member of the problem property
12 unit, did you always take those observations on
13 ports that you thought should be condemned to
14 your supervisor?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And your supervisor, Mr. Betz, did you ever go
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17 to him with regard to any condemnable conditions
18 that you'd observed?
19 A I may have. I don't recall.
20 Q Do you know of any case where you condemned a
21 property without having a supervisor give you
22 the okay?
23 A No.
24 Q It's your statement that there was never a
25 building you condemned that was not approved by
144
1 a supervisor?
2 A Not that I know of, no.
3 Q What is your understanding about rodent
4 harborages as it relates to the pest and rodent
5 issue on properties?
6 MS. SEEBA: Form.
7 Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Do you know what a
8 rodent harborage is?
9 A No.
10 Q Have you ever written an order on a rodent
11 harborage?
12 A I may have.
13 Q But you don't understand what a rodent harborage
14 is as an inspector?
15 A I guess I'm not sure what your question is.
16 Q Isn't rodent harborage a frequent term that's
17 used as a code inspector on properties that have
18 debris laying around where rodents can hide?
19 A It's possible.
20 Q What term would you use if you had a pile of
21 brush and debris and you had a food source
22 nearby? How would you call out as a code
23 inspector?
24 A Probably a sanitation issue.
25 Q Have you ever used the term rodent harborage as
145
1 an inspector?
2 A I may have.
3 Q You just don't recall it as you sit here?
4 A Correct.
5 Q If you used it, what was the definition of
6 rodent harborage?
7 MS. SEEBA: Objection, form and
8 foundation. If you have something to show her
9 on that, I think that would help.
10 A I don't know.
11 MR. SHOEMAKER: I'm trying to get
12 her knowledge. She's a six year inspector,
13 Louise.
14 MS. SEEBA: She's also said that
15 she's seen a number of places. I don't know if
16 you're specifically asking about a property
17 where she's written that or if you're just
18 asking her generally if in the hundreds of
19 properties or thousands of properties that she
20 is written that. I don't understand what your
21 question is. If you can focus it on what Ms.
22 Martin may be able to answer, that would help.
23 Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Ms. Martin, from a
24 standpoint of severe infestation of rodents, how
25 many times have you observed that since you
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146
1 started work with the city in the year 2000?
2 A It depends what you're determining severe rodent
3 infestation.
4 Q Well, if the rules and procedures of Mr. Dawkins
5 as he was a director in your department required
6 severe infestation of rodents in order to
7 condemn a property, would you have used that
8 working definition in condemning a property if
9 it was based on severe infestation?
10 A I may have. I don't recall.
11 Q Have you ever observed infestation of rats, for
12 example, in a property?
13 A Have I observed rats? Yes.
14 Q Have you ever observed an infestation of rats
15 inside an interior structure?
16 A Again I don't know what your determination is
17 infestation.
18 Q You don't know what my definition of infestation
19 is?
20 A No.
21 Q Have you ever had any training on what an
22 infestation is?
23 A I don't recall.
24 Q As it relates to rodents inside of properties?
25 A I don't recall.
147
1 Q Have any of your superiors ever talked to you
2 about what would constitute an infestation of
3 rodents in a property?
4 A They may have. I don't recall.
5 Q Do you have any working definition of what
6 severe infestation of rodents would be?
7 A No.
8 Q Did you have an understanding as to what a
9 severe infestation of rodents was during the
10 time periods of 2002 to 2005?
11 MS. SEEBA: You're asking just
12 generally not about --
13 MR. SHOEMAKER: I just gave her a
14 specific question.
15 Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Do you have any
16 recollection that you had an understanding as to
17 what constituted a severe infestation of rodents
18 during the time you were inspector 2002 to 2005?
19 A No. ^ CH YR.
20 Q Have you ever had any complaints from property
21 owners that have been communicated to the city
22 in writing that you know of?
23 A I guess I don't understand your question.
24 Q Has anyone ever written you a complaint that you
25 personally received?
148
1 MS. SEEBA: About a property?
2 Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Any complaint. In
3 your role as a code inspector or environmental
4 health inspector.
5 A They may have. I don't recall.
6 Q Do you have any recollection of any written
7 complaint that was shown to you by any
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MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
8 supervisor or other supervisor about a property
9 owner that was complaining about your role as a
10 code inspector?
11 A They may have. I don't recall.
12 Q So you as you sit here today, you don't remember
13 anyone that complained about what you did on
14 their property with regards to a code
15 enforcement role you played on the property?
16 A No.
17 Q I'm going to ask you this question: Other than
18 the plaintiff in this case, you can't recall
19 anybody ever making a complaint about how you
20 treated them in your role as a code inspector?
21 MS. SEEBA: Is this any complaint
22 this is not just written?
23 MR. SHOEMAKER: Any complaint, oral
24 or written.
25 A No.
149
1 Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Your answer is
2 still the same? You don't know?
3 A That is correct.
4 Q Do you remember the family named Ostlers?
5 A Never heard of them.
6 Q What was the nature of the nuisance that was
7 present at Ms. Harrilal's property located at
8 704 Lawson Avenue prior to the code orders that
9 you wrote on her property in the fall of 2002?
10 A I don't recall.
11 Q You were a member of the problem property unit
12 by the fall of 2002. Correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Do you recall that Ms. Harrilal's property came
15 up on the problem property list early on in the
16 2002 time frame under your department?
17 A I don't recall but I believe that that property
18 was owned by ray and Katie Hessler who I had
19 orders with them with.
20 Q So you had been working on that property prior
21 to Ms. Harrilal's purchasing the property.
22 Correct?
23 A That is correct.
24 Q And it was owned by Katherine and ray Hessler.
25 Correct?
150
1 A Correct.
2 Q And you had issued some orders on that property
3 related to code deficiencies?
4 A I believe so.
5 Q While the Hesslers owned the property. Right?
6 A Correct.
7 Q Do you remember any police behavior issues on
8 that property during the time that you were
9 writing code orders during 2002?
10 A I don't recall.
11 Q Do you remember any discussions with any problem
12 property member about Ms. Harrilal's property
13 during the year 2002?
14 A I don't recall. But, again, if I had my file, I
15 could look at it, but I don't recall.
16 Q I have looked at the code enforcement file
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17 examine there is no indication in there about
18 any behavior issues and that's why I'm asking
19 you the question as to whether or not you recall
20 will not there were any police behavior issues
21 at that particular property that were of concern
22 to you as a problem property unit member?
23 A I don't recall.
24 Q What do you recall about Ray and Katherine
25 Hessler as to how they responded to your code
151
1 notices on their properties?
2 A Ray and Katie have always been great about
3 responding when ever we have sent orders or I
4 could call them on the phone and they had take
5 care of issues. On that particular property I
6 believe they had notified me that it was sold
7 and that they had given the new owner of the
8 information on the code issues that needed to be
9 taken care of.
10 Q In your area of responsibility during 2000 to
11 2002, how many properties were owned by Ray and
12 Katherine Hessler?
13 A I have no idea.
14 Q How many properties other than the 704 Lawson
15 property did you have contact with that were
16 owned by Ray and Katherine Hessler?
17 A At that time probably three or four.
18 Q Were they all rental properties?
19 A I believe so.
20 Q Describe the kind of contact you had that you
21 can recall about those properties during 2000 to
22 2002?
23 A Again, I don't recall specifics.
24 Q Did you ever meet any other tenants at those
25 properties?
152
1 A I don't recall.
2 Q The three or four properties you said?
3 A I don't recall.
4 Q You don't recall how many properties that you
5 had contact with that were owned by the Hesslers
6 between 2000 and 2002?
7 A No, I'd have to look at the files.
8 Q But you know it was more than one property?
9 A Yes.
10 Q So was the 704 Lawson property in your area of
11 responsibility during the time period of 2000 to
12 2002?
13 A I don't remember how I got that. It could have
14 been a sweep that I had picked up.
15 Q But it's your understanding that the Hesslers
16 told you that they had notified the current
17 owner, Ms. Harrilal, as to the outstanding code
18 issues that you had notified them of?
19 A That is correct.
20 Q My understanding from the tenant recommend case
21 and the documents that were submitted in the 10
22 recommend case the following spring or late
23 winter, you claim that a September 2002 work
24 order that was issued to Ms. Harrilal had not
25 been responded to by her. Is that correct?
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153
1 A I don't recall.
2 Q You don't recall that that was the basis for
3 your claim that she was a repeat violation wrote
4 or of the codes?
5 A No, I don't remember that.
6 Q Do you have any recollection as to your role
7 with regards to the tenant recommend case that
8 the city filed against Ms. Harrilal in about
9 January or February of 2003 on that same
10 property, 704 Lawson?
11 A No.
12 Q Did you ever work with any of the city attorney
13 staff in their pursuing tenant recommend cases
14 during 2002 to 2005?
15 A What do you mean work with?
16 Q Did you provide them with documents on
17 properties that you had inspected where they
18 were going to take tenant recommend cases to
19 court on those properties?
20 A Yes.
21 Q How many times did you -- how many properties
22 did you actually work with the tenant recommend
23 staff on?
24 A I don't remember.
25 Q Was it more than 5?
154
1 A It's possible.
2 Q There were 2 with Mr. Steinhauser you recall.
3 Correct?
4 A Yes.
5 Q The 9106 street and the 1024 Uclid T R A's?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Then with Ms. Harrilal's property located at 704
8 Lawson you also worked with the city attorney
9 staff with that property?
10 A It's possible.
11 Q You don't have any recollection of it?
12 A No.
13 Q Do you remember any other tenant recommend cases
14 that you worked with the city attorneys staff on
15 during 2002 to 2005?
16 A Not at this time, no.
17 Q Do you remember working on a tenant remedy case
18 against Bee Vue and Lamina Vue on one of their
19 properties?
20 A I may have. I don't recall.
21 Q The Hessler properties that you dealt with, what
22 were the general condition of those rental
23 properties during the period of 2000 to 2002?
24 Do you have any recollection of the general
25 condition of the properties?
155
1 A I think most of the complaints that I had
2 received were vehicles and garbage.
3 Q So exterior type violations?
4 A I believe so. Again, I'd have to look at each
5 case.
6 Q Did the Hesslers have their own maintenance
7 staff, as far as you knew?
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8 A I don't know.
9 Q You never had any contact with their maintenance
10 staff?
11 A I may have. I don't remember.
12 Q But you recall that the Hesslers were responsive
13 to your code notices to them?
14 A Yes.
15 Q How about with regard to Ms. Harrilal, did you
16 ever have any communications with her?
17 A I believe I did.
18 Q What do you recall about that?
19 A Again, I'd have to look at my notes.
20 Q So you don't have any independent recollection
21 of any conversations you had with Ms. Harrilal?
22 A No.
23 Q Do you have any recollection of any
24 conversations you had with any of her workers on
25 her property after she learned in January and
156
1 February that there were code issues on her
2 properties?
3 MS. SEEBA: Objection form.
4 A I remember meeting a gentleman -- I don't know
5 if it was who she had hired who was doing
6 maintenance. Then there was a Jerry Fisher that
7 was on site one time. I don't remember the
8 specific conversations with those individuals.
9 Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Mr. Magner made an
10 inspection on Ms. Harrilal's property while you
11 were there. Correct?
12 A I don't recall that.
13 Q You don't ever Mr. Magner coming to the 704
14 Lawson property at any time?
15 A I don't recall that.
16 Q How about Officer Keenan, did he ever make a
17 visit to the 704 Lawson property owned by
18 Ms. Harrilal during 2003?
19 A Yes.
20 Q What do you recall about that visit to her
21 property?
22 A That he probably drove me there.
23 Q When he was a member of problem property unit,
24 did he accompany you in the field on a daily
25 basis?
157
1 A Oftentimes, yes.
2 Q But he wouldn't do that every time. Is that
3 what you're saying?
4 A Right. If other inspectors needed him to go to
5 properties, he would respond with other
6 inspectors.
7 Q So he was on a floating basis. He could be
8 assigned to other inspectors as well. Is that
9 right?
10 A If someone needed assistance, yes, he had go
11 help the other inspectors.
12 Q Did you ever have any role in the creation of
13 problem property lists that were maintained by
14 your office during 2002 to 2005?
15 A What do you mean by did I have any role.
16 Q Did you see the problem property lists were
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17 passed around during meetings with other problem
18 property people?
19 A Yes.
20 Q So you'd reviewed the addresses on those lists.
21 Is that right?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And you would have looked at any of the
24 documents that were printed on those lists?
25 A I may have.
158
1 Q How about any of the handwritten notes that were
2 written on those lists, did you ever remember
3 reading those as well?
4 A No, I don't remember having any handwritten
5 notes on mine.
6 Q Was each individual that was a member of the
7 problem property unit provided with a copy of
8 the problem property lists?
9 A Usually when there was a meeting, Pat McGinn
10 handed out a list.
11 Q How were the meetings conducted from the start
12 of the problem property unit, did you have a
13 separate room you met in?
14 A A conference room at 1600 White Bear Avenue.
15 Q And the meetings of the problem property members
16 would include -- could include the inspectors as
17 well as the officers. Correct?
18 A What do you mean by inspectors?
19 Q Like yourself and Mr. Magner.
20 A Yes.
21 Q And Officer Wiegel and/or Officer Keenan.
22 A Yes.
23 Q Was Mr. Dawkins at every one of the problem
24 property meetings?
25 A Not everyone.
159
1 Q So it was typical to have Mr. Dawkins there?
2 A Yes.
3 Q At times he wasn't there?
4 A Correct.
5 Q And Pat McGinn was she present during the
6 meetings as well?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And you men mentioned that she is the one that
9 prepare the lists?
10 A Correct and and the lists that you're referring
11 to are the problem property lists.
12 A Correct.
13 Q What was her role inside the department during
14 2002 time frame?
15 A I don't know.
16 Q Was she an officer manager?
17 A I believe so.
18 Q Did she have control over the clerical staff
19 within the office?
20 A I don't know what her role was.
21 Q Did at any time you learn what her role was?
22 A No.
23 Q Do you know how long she is been a code
24 enforcement?
25 A I have no idea.
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160
1 Q Do you know how long she is been with the City
2 of St. Paul?
3 A I have no idea.
4 Q How many times do you remember Pat McGinn being
5 at a problem property meeting?
6 A She was there pretty much mostly every meeting.
7 Q What was her role at the meeting?
8 A She handed out the problem property list.
9 Q And did she take part in the discussions at the
10 meeting?
11 A I don't recall.
12 Q What do you recall as to how the meetings
13 themselves were conducted?
14 A Usually mark Wiegel would go through each
15 property and if anybody wanted to bring up any
16 issues or we had update on what is going on with
17 court cases where things were at with each
18 property.
19 Q So would Officer Wiegel pretty much be the one
20 that was presenting the information during the
21 meetings?
22 A Usually.
23 Q Who else would do any presentations during the
24 meetings?
25 A Andy Dawkins.
161
1 Q Anyone else?
2 A I would update what I have done on code issues.
3 Q So, in other words, the purp ants^ CH to the
4 meeting would pretty much all have some input
5 during the meeting?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Were there any other documents other than the
8 problem property lists that you, as a member of
9 the problem property unit, would have had in
10 your possession during the meetings?
11 A Is there anything specific?
12 Q Yeah, I want to know if there is anything other
13 than the problem property lists?
14 A Not that I know of.
15 Q Would you have the paper files on properties
16 with you that would include your log entries as
17 to what you were doing on a property?
18 A Not necessarily.
19 Q At times you would?
20 A Yes.
21 Q How were -- were there notes taken during the
22 meetings?
23 A .
24 MS. SEEBA: You mean --
25 Q By anyone during the meetings, were any notes
162
1 taken?
2 MS. SEEBA: Objection foundation.
3 A There may have been I didn't take notes no.
4 Q Did Mr. Dawkins take notes during the problem
5 property meetings?
6 A I don't know he may have.
7 Q Do you remember where he sat typically in the
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8 conference room during the meetings?
9 A No.
10 Q Do you remember where Ms. McGinn sat during the
11 meetings of the problem property unit?
12 A No.
13 Q How long were these meetings typically?
14 A Approximately an hour.
15 Q How often would they take place?
16 A Once a month or every two months.
17 Q Did Ms. McGinn ever provide you with information
18 after the meeting so that you would have an
19 understanding as to what had been discussed
20 and/or what was going to be done?
21 A No.
22 Q Did you subsequently get updated reports or I
23 should say updated problem property lists?
24 A Yes.
25 Q When would you get those after a meeting?
163
1 A A day or so after.
2 Q So there would be notes that would be entered on
3 the problem property lists under the area of
4 what was the issue that would update you as an
5 inspector?
6 A Not necessarily. It could have been a property
7 that's no longer on the list was removed.
8 Q Did you ever see any of Mr. Dawkins' charts
9 during the problem property meetings?
10 A Which chart?
11 Q Did you see any charts. I'm asking you whether
12 you saw any charts. I'm not see being specific
13 because I don't know what the charts would be.
14 I wasn't a member of the unit. What charts, if
15 any, did you observe during any of the problem
16 property unit meetings that Mr. Dawkins had?
17 A I don't recall.
18 Q Do you remember ever having anyone outside of
19 the code inspection department make an
20 appearance at any of the problem property
21 meetings?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Who was that?
24 A Officer Mike Carroll.
25 Q How often did he come to the problem property
164
1 meetings?
2 A Frequently.
3 Q Now there's three officers that attended at
4 different times, or maybe all at once, the
5 meetings of the problem property unit? Three
6 officers or more were there?
7 A Three, as far as I know.
8 Q You don't remember any other police employee or
9 official that had ever attended the meetings
10 other than Officers Wiegel, Keenan and Carroll?
11 A Correct.
12 Q How about any other third party outside of the
13 code enforcement division, anyone else attend a
14 problem property meeting that you can remember?
15 A The only other outside source that I can think
16 of is someone representing the city attorneys
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MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
17 office.
18 Q How often was the city attorneys office
19 represented at the problem property meetings?
20 A Pretty frequently.
21 Q Is that like most of the time?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Were there times when city attorney wasn't
24 present?
25 A I don't recall.
165
1 Q Do you ever remember any of the aids to the city
2 council coming down to your problem property
3 meetings?
4 A No.
5 Q How about any counsel members themselves?
6 A Not that I can recall.
7 Q Did you ever have any contact with any of the
8 counsel members since you started with the code
9 enforcement in the year 2000?
10 A Since 2000?
11 Q Right.
12 A Any contact at all with the city council?
13 Q Right that's my question.
14 A Kathy Lantry.
15 Q Who else have you had contact with with City of
16 St. Paul counsel since 2000?
17 A That's the only one I can think of.
18 Q With regards to counsel member Lantry tree what
19 do you recall about your communications with her
20 or her communications?
21 A I ran into with bring according day and took a
22 picture with her and the Mayor check check.
23 Q That's the only one?
24 A I have run into her at a community meeting at
25 Daytons bluff.
166
1 Q When was that?
2 A I don't recall. It was during the last year.
3 Q What was the purpose that you were at the
4 community meeting at Daytons bluff last year?
5 A We did a walk through the neighborhood.
6 Q Who was present on that walk through?
7 A The Mayor, someone representing animal control,
8 block club members, myself, Kathy Lantry tree,.
9 Q Any landlord involved on that tour?
10 A I think Roy from -- I don't know what his last
11 name is. He owns Budget Towing. I'm not sure
12 who else was present.
13 Q How long was that tour of the neighborhood you
14 described?
15 A I don't remember how long. I think with the
16 tour and meeting I think it was a couple hours.
17 Q The tour was it where you walked through the
18 neighborhoods?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Any of your family members ever owned any
21 business? I'm talking about whether or not they
22 were -- your husband's or whether or not they
23 were your family?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Describe that for me?
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MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
167
1 A My husband has a construction company.
2 Q What is the name of that?
3 A Templer Construction.
4 Q Check check?
5 Q Where is his office located?
6 A South St. Paul.
7 Q How long has he had that company?
8 A Just ownes it.
9 Q Is he a sole owner of the company?
10 A Yes.
11 Q What type of work does he do what type of
12 construction?
13 A I don't know he has than done any work yet.
14 Q How about any other businesses that any of your
15 husband or family members have owned, can you
16 recall any others?
17 A I believe my sister sells shack Lee.
18 Q How many brothers do you have?
19 A I have one brother.
20 Q Where is he reside?
21 A South Carolina.
22 Q What does he do?
23 A Retired.
24 Q How about your sister other than the shack Lee
25 what does she do?
168
1 A She works for the state.
2 Q What department?
3 A I don't know.
4 Q Where does she live?
5 A In St. Paul.
6 Q What is her address?
7 A 1413 Juliet ^ SP.
8 Q How long has she lived in the City of St. Paul?
9 A I believe since she moved out of my parents
10 house when she was 18.
11 Q So a long time?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Think other addresses she is lived at?
14 A Nope.
15 Q That's the only one?
16 A Correct.
17 Q So she's been there the entire time?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Is she married?
20 A Yes.
21 Q To who?
22 A Timothy Loney^ SP.
23 Q What's his occupation?
24 A Military.
25 Q What branch?
169
1 A US Army.
2 Q Have you ever sold any home that you've owned?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Let's go back to the first home that you would
5 have sold. What home was that?
6 A In Inver Grove heights.
7 Q What was the street address?
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MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
8 A 8251 Dawson Way.
9 Q How long did you own that home before you sold
10 it?
11 A I believe two years.
12 Q Was there a tissue requirement in the city of
13 Inver Grove at the time you sole the property?
14 A I don't remember.
15 Q Did the purchasors of the property have an
16 inspection conducted of your property?
17 A I don't know.
18 Q You don't remember that?
19 A No, I don't.
20 Q What was the year that that was sold?
21 A I believe it was in 1999.
22 Q Who were the purchasers of the home, do you
23 remember that?
24 A I don't remember.
25 Q Was it a couple?
170
1 A It was a couple.
2 Q Did they have a family?
3 A I don't believe they did.
4 Q The next home that you would have sold was what
5 home?
6 A I have never sold another home.
7 Q So that was the only home you've ever sold?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Did you ever do any remodeling work at any time
10 to that home in Inver Grove heights?
11 A No.
12 Q Did you ever have any code notices of any type
13 from the city of Inver Grove heights on your
14 property?
15 A Not that I know of.
16 Q Have you ever received any code notices on any
17 property that you have lived in?
18 A Yes.
19 Q What do you recall about the code notice that
20 you received?
21 A I don't remember the actual notice but it was a
22 citation that was received from the City of St.
23 Paul south St. Paul.
24 Q Which property was that?
25 A Current property.
171
1 Q Whether was that you received a citation?
2 A That would have been, I believe, two years ago,
3 maybe 3.
4 Q Are you talking about a housing criminal
5 misdemeanor citation?
6 A I don't know my husband dealt with it.
7 Q So you're not sure if it was civil or criminal?
8 A I have no idea.
9 Q Do you know what particular part of the
10 structure or what code deficiencies was noted?
11 A I don't.
12 Q Do you know if your husband made any payment to
13 the city as a result of that particular code
14 notice?
15 A I have no idea.
16 Q When you sold your property in Inver Grove you
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MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
17 said that was in 1999?
18 A Correct.
19 Q Then you purchased a property thereafter?
20 A No.
21 Q Have you purchased a property since 1999?
22 A Yes.
23 Q What year was that?
24 A I believe it was 2001 or 2002.
25 Q That's the home that's located at where?
172
1 A On stick knee avenue.
2 Q South St. Paul?
3 A Correct.
4 Q Have you refinanced that home at any time?
5 A Yes.
6 Q When was the first time after you bought that
7 property in 2000 or 2001 that you refinanced it?
8 A It was just like last year.
9 Q Did you go to a closing on the refinancing?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Did you have to fill out any type of affidavit
12 as part of the forms?
13 A I don't remember.
14 Q Did you disclose that you were a defendant in
15 federal cases, Steinhauser and Harrilal?
16 A I don't remember that.
17 Q You don't have any recollection of that?
18 A No.
19 Q How did you prepare for your deposition today?
20 A I met with my attorney.
21 Q When did you meet with her?
22 A Yesterday.
23 Q Did you have any prior meetings with her?
24 A No.
25 Q Have you talked with any of the other inspectors
173
1 at any time about their depositions?
2 A No.
3 Q You didn't talk to Mr. Keen or Officer Keenan
4 about his deposition?
5 A No I was present for his deposition.
6 Q Did you have any discussions with him afterwards
7 about his deposition?
8 A No.
9 Q Have you worked with Officer Keenan since his
10 deposition?
11 A No.
12 Q You have n't had occasion to have him ride
13 around with you at any time since his
14 deposition?
15 A That is correct.
16 Q Have you seen him in the office since his
17 deposition?
18 A Yes, I have.
19 Q How much have you seen him since his deposition?
20 A Maybe three times a week.
21 Q Have you had lunch with Officer Keenan since his
22 deposition?
23 A Yes, I have.
24 Q How many times?
25 A Twice a week.
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174
1 Q How long of lunches have you had with Officer
2 Keenan since his deposition?
3 A Probably 45 minutes to an hour.
4 Q How about with regards to Mr. Lippert have you
5 had any discussions with him since he had his
6 deposition?
7 A No.
8 Q Have you had any discussions with any of the
9 other inspectors generally about the lawsuits?
10 A No.
11 Q When the Steinhauser was was file in May of 2004
12 did you have a meeting with the inspectors
13 regarding the lawsuit?
14 A Me personally?
15 Q With any of the inspectors were you present at
16 any discussion other than with Ms. Seeba or
17 someone else from the city attorneys meetings?
18 MS. SEEBA: You're asking about
19 meetings either Frank and/or I weren't at?
20 A No.
21 Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) How about meetings
22 with the city attorneys office?
23 A Yes.
24 Q How many meetings did you with the city
25 attorneys office following the Steinhauser
175
1 complaint being filed in May of 2004?
2 A I believe twice.
3 Q Was the first meeting during or shortly after
4 the filing of the Steinhauser case?
5 A I don't remember.
6 Q When do you remember the last meeting with the
7 city attorneys office other than --
8 A Louise Seeba came out to or office and --
9 MS. SEEBA: That's enough.
10 Q I'm not asking for any communication. I just
11 want to know when the meetings were?
12 A I don't remember.
13 Q So you recall a meeting sometime after the
14 filing of the Steinhauser case. Correct?
15 A I don't remember the date.
16 Q I know that. But do you recall a meeting with
17 the city attorneys office about the Steinhauser
18 case?
19 A I don't remember what case it was on.
20 Q Did you ever read the Steinhauser complaint at
21 any time?
22 A I think there's three different ones. So which
23 one?
24 Q I'm talking about the Steinhauser complaint.
25 Have you ever read the Steinhauser, Kelly
176
1 Brisson, Mark Meysenberg complaint?
2 A I may have.
3 Q You just don't recall it?
4 A No.
5 Q Do you remember reading the Sandy Harrilal,
6 Steve Johnson Bee Vue and Limana Vue complaint
7 where you were a named defendant?
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MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
8 A I may have. I don't remember.
9 Q Do you remember any discussions about the
10 Steinhauser claims as it related to Mr. Vue
11 after Mr. Steinhauser's case was filed?
12 A No.
13 Q So it's your testimony that you've not had any
14 discussions about the depositions with any of
15 the inspectors who have already been deposed in
16 this case?
17 A Correct.
18 Q Have you had any conversations with any of the
19 inspectors you worked with at the city code
20 enforcement office about the nature of the
21 claims that the plaintiff landlords are
22 bringing?
23 A Not that I can recall, no.
24 Q My question to you is outside of the discussions
25 that you've had with the city attorneys office
177
1 the two meetings you recall, have you ever had
2 any discussions about any of the inspectors
3 about the nature of the claims that the
4 landlords are making in these three lawsuits?
5 A No.
6 Q Have you ever had any discussion with any of the
7 inspectors about the claims that are being made
8 against you personally?
9 A No.
10 Q Have you ever talked to any attorney outside of
11 the city attorneys office about the nature of
12 the claims against you personally?
13 A No.
14 Q As a code inspector from 2000 forward at any
15 time was that a union position?
16 A My position as a -- I know I pay union dues.
17 Q So you are a member of the union as a code
18 inspector for the city?
19 A I believe so, yes.
20 Q Did you have conversations with union members
21 after the frank Steinhauser case was filed
22 against the city in May of 2004?
23 A I don't believe so.
24 Q You don't remember having conversations with
25 personnel from the union office about the nature
178
1 of the claims being made against you?
2 A No.
3 Q Did you ever meet with union officials at any
4 time about the nature of the claims being made
5 against you?
6 A Never.
7 Q How about with regards to meetings with the
8 union officials with regards to the claims in
9 general being made against the inspection
10 department?
11 A No.
12 Q Have you talked to your husband about the claims
13 being made against you?
14 A No.
15 Q Have you talked to your husband about the
16 general nature of the lawsuits?
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MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
17 A He knew we were -- that I was served at our
18 home.
19 Q Have you ever met Roger Talis^ SP?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Tell me how you know Roger Talis ^ SP.
22 A I dropped off some car payments for my husband
23 at his office.
24 Q Did Mr. Talis play a role in financing of a
25 vehicle for your husband?
179
1 A I don't know. I believe so.
2 Q So that was the reason that your husband would
3 have been dropping off some car payments to
4 Mr. Talis?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Have you ever met Mr. Talis in person?
7 A Yes.
8 Q How often have you had any meetings with him?
9 A Probably twice or three times.
10 Q When do you recall first meeting Mr. Talis?
11 A Probably when I dropped off payments at his
12 office.
13 Q What year are you talking about that you would
14 have done that?
15 A Probably -- I don't know. Probably 2002, 2003.
16 Q What type of a vehicle was it that was subject
17 to the loan?
18 A An old gray vehicle. I have no idea.
19 Q Have you had any meetings with Mr. Talis other
20 than when you dropped off payments for the
21 vehicle?
22 A No.
23 Q Have you ever had any conversations with
24 Mr. Talis by telephone?
25 A I may have. I don't recall anything.
180
1 Q Does your husband know Mr. Talis in some type of
2 a form? Like a friend or business associate?
3 A I don't know that.
4 Q You don't have any idea as to how your husband
5 made contact with Mr. Talis?
6 A Nope.
7 Q Have you ever had any type of criminal
8 connections of any type of any nature?
9 A Speeding tickets.
10 Q So your answer is only speeding tickets and no
11 misdemeanor violations?
12 A Correct.
13 Q Any D U I?
14 A Never.
15 Q DWI's?
16 A Never.
17 Q How about lawsuits? You've had a number of
18 divorces. Other than the divorces, have you
19 ever been a plaintiff or a defendant in a
20 lawsuit?
21 A No.
22 Q What documents did you review in preparation for
23 your deposition today?
24 A There was 2 -- like the amended number 2 and
25 Number 3.
Page 78
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
181
1 Q So you're talking about the complaints?
2 A Correct.
3 Q So the Steinhauser third amended complaint you
4 looked at?
5 A I believe that's what it was.
6 Q The current version of the complaints in the
7 Steinhauser and the Harrilal case is what you
8 looked at?
9 A It's possible.
10 Q What portions of those complaints did you look
11 at?
12 A I just glanced through it.
13 Q How much time did you spent on looking through
14 the Steinhauser complaint?
15 A Maybe 5 minutes.
16 Q How about regards to the Harrilal complaint, how
17 much time did you spend in preparation for your
18 deposition by reviewing that complaint?
19 A About 5 minutes.
20 Q When you were doing your refinancing of your
21 home as you mentioned, who did you refinance
22 through?
23 A Country wide.
24 Q Who was the closing company?
25 A I don't remember that name.
182
1 Q Do you remember where they were located?
2 A In Bloomington.
3 Q You don't remember the name of the closing
4 company?
5 A No.
6 Q Or the Realty company that the closing was held
7 in?
8 A No.
9 Q Did you receive papers as part of the closing on
10 the property?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Do you still have those papers?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Do you have any professional licenses that you
15 hold? I know you talked about that you've had a
16 lot of training and a lot of different
17 employment positions of let me just ask you
18 currently if there is any professional licenses
19 that you have?
20 A No.
21 Q Have you ever held any professional licenses?
22 A Just the insurance licensing for auto, home and
23 life insurance.
24 Q Let's focus on the condemnation of properties.
25 How many properties have you condemned in your 6
183
1 years or so as a code inspector?
2 A I don't know.
3 MS. SEEBA: Asked and answered.
4 Q Do you remember how many properties you would
5 have condemned during Mr. Dawkins tenure as a
6 director?
7 A I don't know.
Page 79
MARTIN DEPO part 1 draft.txt
8 Q Did you condemn more than one property a week
9 when you were inspector working with Mr.
10 Dawkins?
11 A I don't know.
12 Q You don't remember that?
13 A No.
14 Q What -- during the 2002 to 2005 time frame, what
15 was your understanding as to when a property
16 could be condemned in the City of St. Paul as it
17 related to structures that you were dealing
18 with?
19 A L and safety issues.
20 Q What was your understanding what constituted
21 life safety issue?
22 A No heat, no water, could be gross unsanitary,
23 general overall dilapidated conditions.
24 Q Anything else?
25 A Lacking smoke detector, anything that would be a
184
1 life safety violation.
2 Q Did you have any discussion with any of your
3 supervisor or director of code enforcement
4 during Mr. Dawkins tenure as to when you should
5 and should not condemn a property as it related
6 to the occupant's housing?
7 A Could you clarify that?
8 Q Well, if you had a property that was occupanted
9 by tenants and they were calling that their
10 home, did you ever have any discussion as to
11 whether or not that would play a role in your
12 making a determination to condemn that property?
13 A I may have. I don't remember.
14 Q Do you recall any discussion about a concern by
15 the inspectors, including yourself, that if you
16 condemned a property and required tenants to
17 leave that they may not be able to find
18 alternative housing?
19 A Was that a concern for me?
20 Q Right.
21 A I guess I did not think about it.
22 Q Then the question is: Do you recall any
23 discussion by any of the fellow inspectors about
24 their concerns that if a property was condemned,
25 the occupants would not potentially be able to

1 find alternative housing during Dawkins' tenure
2 as a director?
3 A No.
4 Q You don't remember any discussion that would
5 relate in any way to a concern about the
6 occupants of properties that were being
7 condemned finding all turn it have housing
8 during the time Mr. Dawkins was a director?
9 A Not that I can recall.
10 Q That would be a pretty important subject, would
11 it not, if you're condemning a building and
12 requiring people to leave their home?
13 MS. SEEBA: Objection form.
14 Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Isn't that true?
15 A What is the question?
16 Q Well, if you were going to condemn a property

17 and people were required to leave their home,
18 wouldn't that be of importance to you as an
19 inspector for the city?
20 MS. SEEBA: Asked and answered.
21 Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Do you understand
22 the question?
23 A No.
24 Q At your home, if an inspector comes out and
25 condemns your property, wouldn't you have a
186
1 concern as to where you're going to go?
2 A I guess my concern would be why was I condemned
3 if that's that unsafe then I shouldn't be there.
4 Q That would be your concern on your property?
5 A Right.
6 Q But how about if you're a renter during the
7 times you've rented and your property was
8 condemned, wouldn't it be your concern as to
9 where you would go to find alternative housing?
10 A No.
11 Q Why wouldn't that have been a concern to you in
12 the rentals that you've had?
13 A My position was to enforce the codes not to find
14 housing.
15 Q I'm talking about in your role as a renter in
16 the years prior to you're joining the city. Any
17 of the are that actual properties if they would
18 have been condemned and you were ordered out of
19 your rental property wouldn't that have been a
20 concern to you?
21 A No.
22 Q Why?
23 A Because it was obviously unsafe for me to be
24 there.
25 Q Wouldn't you have a concern as to where you're
187
1 going to go, where you're going to find
2 alternative housing?
3 A No.
4 MS. SEEBA: Objection form.
5 Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Why wouldn't you
6 have that concern?
7 MS. SEEBA: Form, speculation. I
8 don't know where you're going with this. Let's
9 move on.
10 MR. SHOEMAKEr: She hasn't answered
11 the question.
12 A I said, no, I wouldn't have a concern.
13 Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) You wouldn't have
14 a concern if a rental property that you were
15 renting was condemned, a concern that you
16 wouldn't be able to find alternative housing?
17 A No.
18 Q As an inspector, did you ever have a concern
19 that the individuals that were occupying the
20 properties that you were condemning would not be
21 able to find alternative housing?
22 A No.
23 Q Why is that that you didn't have that concern?
24 Wasn't that your role to find them alternative
25 housing
1 A That's not my role to find alternative housing.
2 However, there are agencies out there to assist
3 people.
4 Q But it wasn't your concern whether or not those
5 occupants in the condemned properties that you
6 had a role in condemning would be able to find
7 alternative housing?
8 A My job was to make sure that the environment and
9 the home they were in was safe for them to be
10 there.
11 MS. SEEBA: Why don't we take a
12 break. It's after 1:00.
13 MR. SHOEMAKER: It's ten after.
14 Let's come back at ten after 2:00..
15 (Luncheon recess, 1:10-2:10 p.m.)
16 Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Ms. Martin, we
17 were talking early this morning about employment
18 history for you and I think where we left off
19 was your city employment with the city police
20 department and the code enforcement. Have you
21 had any other positions with the City of
22 St. Paul other than those two positions?
23 A No.
24 Q When you were a dispatcher did you have any
25 other employment outside of the City of St.

1 Paul?
2 A Yes.
3 Q There was a year that you worked for the police
4 department in the dispatch role correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q What part-time or full-time positions did you
7 have outside the City of St. Paul during the
8 dime you were a dispatcher?
9 A Actually, it was right before I was a dispatcher
10 and it was with Amhurst Wilder Foundation.
11 Q Tell me how long that work lasted.
12 A I believe I was there for one year.
13 Q You said Amhurst Wilder?
14 A Yes.
15 Q What did they do?
16 A It was housing.
17 Q Housing what what type of role with housing?
18 A It was an apartment complex in St. Paul.
19 Q So were you working at the apartment complex?
20 A Yes.
21 Q What was your job?
22 A Property manager.
23 Q That was a part-time position. Correct?
24 A It was full time.
25 Q And the dispatch position with the city was also

1 full time at that time?
2 A Right.
3 Q So you were working 2 part full time jobs?
4 A This was prior to.
5 Q So prior to the dispatch you were working full
6 time as a property manager. What type of a
7 building was that?

8 A It was a high rise.
9 Q How many units were in there?
10 A I don't remember.
11 Q Was it more than 3?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Was it a 100 unit building?
14 A It's possible.
15 Q And you worked there for how long?
16 A About a year.
17 Q What did you do as a property manager for that
18 company?
19 A Screened tenants, took in rents, inspected
20 apartments.
21 Q Let's look at the screening issue. What type
22 much screening process was in place when you
23 joined Amhurst Wilder?
24 A Tenants would fill out an application and we had
25 run it through the credit bureau.
191
1 Q Who were the owners of that high rise apartment
2 complex?
3 A Redeemer's Lutheran Church.
4 Q Do you know if they still own that property?
5 A I don't know.
6 Q So there was a credit check done as part of the
7 screening process. Correct?
8 A Corrected.
9 Q Any other type of a background check as far as
10 screening goes?
11 A I believe they looked at criminal records.
12 Q My question related to the time period when you
13 first started with them and what type of
14 screening program you saw that they had. So
15 your answer is they had an application process
16 at the time you started work there as a property
17 manager. Correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And then they had a credit check as part of
20 their application process for tenants. Correct?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Then you think they did criminal backgrounds as
23 well at the time you started?
24 A Yep.
25 Q Did that screening process include anything else

1 at the time you started?
2 A It may have. I don't remember.
3 Q You were in charge of the screening once you
4 took over the full time position as property
5 manager. Correct?
6 A Not in charge of, no.
7 Q Did you have someone underneath you that did
8 that process?
9 A Yes I did.
10 Q Who was that?
11 A I don't remember her last name. Her first name
12 was Charise.
13 Q So she was the person that was responsible for
14 screening at that complex?
15 A Correct.
16 Q Prior to you joining the property manager

17 position there?
18 A No.
19 Q Did you hire her?
20 A Yes.
21 Q What was her background?
22 A I don't recall.
23 Q Was she full time or part-time?
24 A She was full time.
25 Q Did you train her?

1 A She was trained by the Wilder foundation.
2 Q Why is it called Amhurst Wilder, does Wilder
3 foundation have some role in that property?
4 A They were like a management company for
5 redeemer's Lutheran church.
6 Q So they had trained her in how to do screening
7 of applicant tenants?
8 A Correct.
9 Q When you took over as property manager, did you
10 learn that that screening process included
11 criminal background checks of potential tenants?
12 A I don't remember. I think it did.
13 Q Then you took rents you said?
14 A Correct.
15 Q How was that processed? Were they mailed to
16 you, delivered to you, that kind of a thing?
17 A Yes.
18 Q You didn't go to the unit and collect the rent,
19 did you?
20 A No.
21 Q What type of tenants were housed in this
22 particular apartment complex?
23 A A variety elderly, disabled, handicapped.
24 Q Any other type of tenants other than elderly
25 disabled handicapped?

1 A I don't have deny been.
2 Q What was the racial make up of the tenant base
3 there at that complex during Tim you worked
4 there?
5 A I don't remember. It was a variety of people.
6 Q So there was a mixture of races?
7 A Absolutely.
8 Q Was there anyone particular race that was more
9 prevalent there as a tenant?
10 A Not that stands out to me.
11 Q You said you conducted inspections as well as
12 taking rents and screening. Tell me a little
13 bit about the inspection process that you had a
14 role in as a property manager?
15 A Quarterly we had do inspections of each unit to
16 make sure the smoke detector were working, to
17 see if there was any issues or just responding.
18 We had maintenance staff that would respond to
19 any complaints in each unit.
20 Q The maintenance staff were they employees of the
21 ownership company?
22 A I don't remember.
23 Q Were this from Wilder foundation?
24 A I think they were employed by redeemer.
25 Q Were they on site or did they have to come from
1 some other place?
2 A They were on site.
3 Q They have a caretaker in the building?
4 A Yes.
5 Q How many?
6 A 2.
7 Q Any security personnel at the building?
8 A No.
9 Q By that I mean that would be housed at the
10 building?
11 A No.
12 Q Did they have security staff that was
13 responsible for the exterior and the general
14 security on the building?
15 A No.
16 Q And you worked at this apartment complex as a
17 property manager for about a year. Correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And then you took the position with the police
20 dispatch?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Any other jobs prior to taking the position with
23 the police dispatch that you haven't told me
24 about today?
25 A Not that I can remember.
196
1 Q So now you're a police dispatcher. That was a
2 full time position. Correct?
3 A Yes.
4 Q How many hours did that involve on a weekly
5 basis?
6 A 40 plus.
7 Q Did you have any part-time positions with any
8 third party employer or foundation or any type
9 of third party during the time you were a
10 dispatcher?
11 A Not that I can remember.
12 Q When you left the dispatch position you took the
13 position at code enforcement. Correct?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Back with the Amhurst Wilder apartment complex
16 as a full time manager, did you have any
17 part-time employment during that time?
18 A I don't remember if that was the time when I was
19 working part-time at Excel energy and then just
20 transferring to the police department or not.
21 Q So you may have been working part-time with
22 Excel?
23 A Correct.
24 Q Just don't recall?
25 A Right.
197
1 Q After moving to code enforcement which was a
2 full time position, have you had any part-time
3 work since 2000 time that you joined the city
4 code enforcement?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Let's go chronologically. What was your first
7 part-time job after you took over the code; 10:48 AM
Bob said...: As I said, these ass wipes don't care about citizens condemned to the streets.

from the testimony-

8 Q Well, if you had a property that was occupanted
9 by tenants and they were calling that their
10 home, did you ever have any discussion as to
11 whether or not that would play a role in your
12 making a determination to condemn that property?
13 A I may have. I don't remember.
14 Q Do you recall any discussion about a concern by
15 the inspectors, including yourself, that if you
16 condemned a property and required tenants to
17 leave that they may not be able to find
18 alternative housing?
19 A Was that a concern for me?
20 Q Right.
21 A I guess I did not think about it.
22 Q Then the question is: Do you recall any
23 discussion by any of the fellow inspectors about
24 their concerns that if a property was condemned,
25 the occupants would not potentially be able to

1 find alternative housing during Dawkins' tenure
2 as a director?
3 A No.
4 Q You don't remember any discussion that would
5 relate in any way to a concern about the
6 occupants of properties that were being
7 condemned finding all turn it have housing
8 during the time Mr. Dawkins was a director?
9 A Not that I can recall.
10 Q That would be a pretty important subject, would
11 it not, if you're condemning a building and
12 requiring people to leave their home?
13 MS. SEEBA: Objection form.
14 Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Isn't that true?
15 A What is the question?
16 Q Well, if you were going to condemn a property

17 and people were required to leave their home,
18 wouldn't that be of importance to you as an
19 inspector for the city?
20 MS. SEEBA: Asked and answered.
21 Q (Continuing by Mr. Shoemaker) Do you understand
22 the question?
23 A No.; 11:54 AM
Anonymous said...: Bob - who in the hell is the ass wipe that owns the property that isn't safe to live in?

How come no hostility from you towards those ass wipes?

This woman is trying to protect innocent victims of exploitation by some pretty evil property owners that have allowed their properties to fall into disrepair. These victims have given their hard earned money to these ass wipes and they won't reinvest a dime in it to repair the dump!

What she is saying in her testimony is that it wasn't her job to determine if they would be able to find alternative housing. It was her job to determine if the property was so unsafe or so unsanitary that living outside would be safer! That is some pretty bad conditions.

What would you have her do?

Give condemnation orders on a property and let someone live there? Isn't that saying that it is safe enough to live in but I am going to give orders to vacate anyway?

If she is condeming it, it better be in bad enough shape that she wants the people out of there for their own safety or she shouldn't be condeming it!

Imagine the story if she let someone live in one of these death traps and they died?

Or imagine the screaming you would be doing if she condemed buildings that she thought it would be OK for someone to live in if they couldn't find somewhere else.

She did exactly what she is suppose to do Bob. There are other people who's job it is to handle emergency housing needs, not the inspectors. The City spend millions on emergency housing.

JMONTOMEPPOF

Chuck Repke; 12:31 PM
Bob said...: Chuck said;

This woman is trying to protect innocent victims of exploitation by some pretty evil property owners that have allowed their properties to fall into disrepair. These victims have given their hard earned money to these ass wipes and they won't reinvest a dime in it to repair the dump!

my response;

More of that selective reading Chuck. Haven't you read the testimony of Frank Steinhausers tenant? She said he was making repairs. She said, he repairs the unit when she asked him to.

We will get to testimony from Lisa that she NEVER seen a rat in Steinhausers property.; 12:42 PM
Anonymous said...: Bob, I have no idea why Martin condemned that property, I didn't see the report, I have never talked to her. I also have no idea what motivates a long time tenant in one of these places to testify for the owner either.

But, I do know that your logic makes no sense and it is circular.

Martin should only condemn properties that no one should live in. True?

She sure as hell shouldn't be condemning them and then let people live in them if they aren't able to find a nice place to go to. True?

If both of those things are true then your argument that she is the one throwing innocent victims to the street makes no sense.

Was your owner able to get the condemnation order removed? Did he go to District Court and show there was nothing wrong with his buildings? No and No.

Does your owner admit to multiple building code violations on his properties? Yes.

Does he just want a little more time, again and again and again?

Yes, yes, yes...

And did this woman end up on the streets? Apparently not.

Are there people with the City that deal with the problems of the homeless every day? Yes.

Does the City and County spend millions on the homeless? Yes.

Is that a part of the inspectors job description? No.

So, should Martin be concerned about if someone will find alternative housing when she issues a condemnation order? NO! We pay other people to do that! We want her to be judging the properties on the conditions she sees, not current opportunities of the tenants.

JMONTOMEPPOF

Chuck Repke; 1:04 PM
Bob said...: Chuck the city picks and chooses who should be put out on the street.

Code enforcement officer Pat Fish and the GRIGGS building.

Pat Fish was aware multiple citizens were living in the basement of the Griggs building in storage units. Some of these units were rented out as ligitiment sound studios by a company named KOOLER Sounds. Some of you may of heard of the band Knight Rider. They got their start practicing out of a basement studio in the Griggs building.

Anyway, there was several tenants who lived in these storage units who had a pack rat phobia.

You reading Pat? Remember Danny?
Danny rented out 5 units in the Griggs basement and upper storage levels. Danny also lived in one of the storage units like many others there. Danny, wears the same cloths for months at a time. He bathed in a wringer washing machine in his storage unit once every 3 months. Danny lived in the Griggs building storage unit for over 8 years. His unit like others was stacked from floor to ceiling with odds and ends he bought at garage sales and thrift store. There was a very narrow pathway to get around the storage unit he resided in. Danny cooked on hot plates in the storage unit and so did others cook in their units. The roaches were so bad you could not walk without stepping on them. Of coarse there was a public rest room with no shower facilities and it was on the second floor so many residence of the storage units would piss on the floor or they would piss in litre pop bottles that seem to sit around and never get dumped.

There was several fires the homeless tenants put out before the fire department arrived. Burning matress . a garbage can. It would of been really tough to exit this basement storage area in the event of a fire that had gotten out of control.

After over 8 years the city finally got around to condemning Danny's storage unit. For months after the condemnation Danny lived in the unit up until the time the Griggs Building went under renovations.

While the city was turning basically a blind eye to this dangerous circumstance, they were out condemning rental properties and putting citizens on the street.; 1:11 PM
Anonymous said...: Bob, Bob, Bob, Bob, Bob...

Danny wasn't suppose to live in the storage locker, now was he?

The storage locker wasn't a living unit. It was a storage locker.

If the inspector thought that someone was living there, what was she to do? Post a sign saying no living in storage lockers? Stay there all night long to make sure nobody showed up to live there? And while she was at it post a sign saying no sleeping in the public restroom?

Are you F'ing kidding me!!!

I got a nickle that says if Pat thought someone was living there she probably told the owners that nobody was suppose to live in the lockers.... Thinking of that, how often are commercial buildings like that inspected, every three years? There are no living units in the Griggs building, so it wouldn't even be an issue for housing, it would be a commercial inspection, why would anyone be even looking for people to be living in the storage lockers?

And what does any of that have to do with the blood suckers squeezing the last drops out of some poor tenant to live in a housing unit with no working toilet and the ceiling caving in?

So, because some people are living in storage lockers its OK for your buddies to exploit the poor?

JMONTOMEPPOF

Chuck Repke; 1:27 PM
Bob said...: Chuck said;

Danny wasn't suppose to live in the storage locker, now was he?

My response; That is my point Chuck, they shouldn't of been living there and the city knew damn well they were living in these unsanitary, unsafe conditions. And they were there for years.

Chuck said;
I got a nickle that says if Pat thought someone was living there she probably told the owners that nobody was suppose to live in the lockers.... Thinking of that, how often are commercial buildings like that inspected, every three years?

My response;
Chuck Pat Fish was in and out of this building sometimes weekly and once a month for a long time before the renovations. And yes she did tell the owners that folks shouldn't be living there. She informed the folks living there she suspected they all were residing there and they should leave. The police also knew Danny like others were living there because Danny had keys to access areas of the building that were locked and the police often knocked at Dannys storage unit to asked him to help them gain entry to other areas of the building. Pat and the police knew, and yet like I said folks lived there for years. I was present on several occassions when Pat spoke with some of these citizens. It was all to obvious she was really reluctant to put these folks on the street.

Chuck said;
There are no living units in the Griggs building, so it wouldn't even be an issue for housing, it would be a commercial inspection, why would anyone be even looking for people to be living in the storage lockers?

My response;
You didn't have to look for citizens living there Chuck. It was right in your face. Storage units set up like living rooms with a couch t.v. sometimes a bed.

This still goes on. However, I won't say where. I remember when I made a public statement about the homeless folks at Crosby Park. The police and code enforcement went to the park and kicked them all out of their tent shelters in the middle of the winter. Didn't even let them take all their belonging with them.; 1:59 PM
Bob said...: Chuck said;

And what does any of that have to do with the blood suckers squeezing the last drops out of some poor tenant to live in a housing unit with no working toilet and the ceiling caving in?

My response;

Franks Steinhausers tenant and Frank say this is a lie Chuck. No ceiling falling down, and kids do plug toilets Chuck.

Chuck said;

So, because some people are living in storage lockers its OK for your buddies to exploit the poor?

My response;

I do not know anyone who exploits the poor. I only know of an arrogant city leadership past and present who have gotten use to violating citizens rights.; 2:04 PM
Anonymous said...: Chuck said,
Danny wasn't suppose to live in the storage locker, now was he?

Bob said,
My response; That is my point Chuck, they shouldn't of been living there and the city knew damn well they were living in these unsanitary, unsafe conditions. And they were there for years.

I say,
The city was busy chasing landlords and renters out of town for neighbors who didn't care for them. Griggs was a low level priority. No neighbors complaining about the Griiggs building.; 2:52 PM
Anonymous said...: Griggs basement was a after hours joint.; 3:04 PM
Anonymous said...: "I have no idea what motivates a long time tenant in one of these places to testify for the owner either."

This statement is hilarious! Chuck just cannot ever imagine in his wildest dreams that a tenant would actually like a landlord.

They are all slumlords no matter what aren't they Chuck?; 3:08 PM
Anonymous said...: The statements of this person are nothing but lies and cover ups. I mean ...Come on, read it. She doesn't rememeber anything. Her statements are so guarded she even dances around saying what an infestation is even though she writes orders on them every day. I wouldn't believe her for the time of day.; 3:30 PM
Anonymous said...: "I do enjoy reading all of this because it does give you the sense that the attorney for the plaintiffs never did have any case and spent four years fishing for anything that they could. A lot of this questioning was designed to question the credibility of Martin, what was her experience, why was she hired, who did she know... and the point is? "

Ummm....lets see Chuck.....the reason for people doing Depositions is to get helpful facts and to impeach the credibility of the others sides witnesses.

It looks to me like they got both in this Deposition. I'd hire this Attorney. He was able to get testimony that's going to make this witness totally unbelieveable to a jury if it ever gets to trial.

You forget Chuck.....this witness is stuck with this tetimony unless she wants to go for perjury. She doesn't know what the word investigate means, doesn't know what an infestation is, doesn't know who was at meetings that she attended, She doesn't even know how long her own husband has worked at his job and doesn't recall much of anything else including her job title and the qualifications for it, but they trust her to be out interpeting the code. Lots of luck with this one.

I remember this Lisa Martin from another place Chuck. Patty Bruce has documants on Barbara Winnns website where this Martin clown is telling the Maplewood Police that the St Paul Police cover things up all the time.

This doesn't sound like someone that's got it all together to me.; 5:56 PM
Anonymous said...: 5:56 - what is wrong with her statement. The attorney asks do you remember who was in a meeting 5 years ago, no... Do you remember every training you ever took, no...
Do you remember every house you ever inspected, no...

They are stupid questions from a not very good lawyer designed to impress the poor fools that are paying for him. None answers are worth nothing. All of you true believers think that she must be hiding something, but she is doing what any good witness does which is to answer the truth and only the truth. If you want her to say what she wrote in a file, you are going to have to let her look at the file. You guys watch to much TV lawyering....

And, Bob, what is your point with the Grigg's building? Do you want the City to be more aggressive in these situations? It sounds like the City was trying to get these people out of there but they weren't stationing the cops at the doors every night and that has you upset.

Bob, you realy want code enforcement to be used to get people you don't like, its kinda sad.

JMONTOMEPPOF

Chuck Repke; 8:27 PM
Bob said...: Chuck said;
And, Bob, what is your point with the Grigg's building?

my response;
I believe the Griggs Building had a very low priority because there wasn't a complaining neighbor until the print shop was burglarized. These folks lived in a very unsanitary dangerous situation and were not condemned to the street with the hast citizens were in neighborhoods like Frogtown and the East side.
You don't think this is a disparity Chuck?

Chuck said;
Do you want the City to be more aggressive in these situations?

My response;
I want fair and equal government for all. Unfortunately the situation I described here concerning Danny is common. These folks with pack rat phobias collect so much junk they usually get kicked out of any apartment they rent. SO, they end up in these storage units where they feel free to collect all the junk they want. This is an illness and I believe when the city finds folks living under these conditions there should be support provided. There was also a large number of young men. They couldn't afford regular housing and this was an alternative. Sad alternative because there was no way these folks could sleep at night with all those bands practicing. And some of them really sucked!

Chuck said;
It sounds like the City was trying to get these people out of there but they weren't stationing the cops at the doors every night and that has you upset.

My response;
No Chuck I was Glad the cops didn't station a cop at the door. They were there all to often as it was. Chuck, this was one of my after hours joints until it closed. I felt empathy for some of these folks who resided there.

Chuck said;
Bob, you realy want code enforcement to be used to get people you don't like, its kinda sad.

JMONTOMEPPOF

Chuck Repke

My response;
Not true Chuck. I want code enforcement to quit violating citizens rights. I feel some folks need a taste of their own medicine. This city has NO right to condemn folks to the street with no place to go.

The recent story about Magner and the vacant house patrol. Bunch of hog wash when he says they fall on their swords and allow folks to stay in those vacant homes when they find them. I bet they have to be out within hours. Another PR campaign like the one Officer Koehen used by getting involved with Listening house, and getting that phony award. That cop don't give two shits about homeless folks. He sure has put many women and children on the street in his duties assisting code enforcement officers.; 10:21 PM
Anonymous said...: Call it what you want Chuck, but her answers look like lies to me and cover up to me. Who doesn't know how long their husband has worked on his job? She's a good witness alright.....good at not telling the truth and being evasive.; 11:35 PM
Bob said...: Good Morning Saint Paul!

What I have here folks is suppressed evidence
in the Bobbi Winn murder trial.

Code Enforcement Officer Lisa Martin was once married to Aaron Foster a man suspected of killing his girlfriend Bobbi Winn. When you get to the site scroll down the page to the Maplewood police department reports.

Lisa was interviewed by the Maplewood police concerning her ex Aaron Foster. You will see that Lisa Martin doesn't seem to have any long memory laps during this interview. In fact she claims city government isn't to be trusted and she fears them.

So what gives with Lisa's testimony here. Is she just a liar?
Does she fear the city?
Or, is she just another insider covering the cities ass on these Fair Housing Lawsuits. You decide!; 7:58 AM
Anonymous said...: AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bob, Bob...BOB!!!!!!!!!

How does your mind work?

Or better still, does your mind work?

Martin, is a housing inspector, one of many who have been involved in dealing with the problem properties of your landlord buddies, gets singled out for your grand conspiracy because at one time she was married to someone who was accused of murder 15 years before she met him.

Oh, this makes perfect sense.

Mayor Kelly has stepped up enforcement on problem properties in Saint Paul to keep Lisa Martin employed because she use to be married to Aaron Foster who was a friend of Bill Finney's who at the time Kelly was Mayor was the former police chief who was running for Sheriff against Kelly's friend Bob Fletcher.

Obviously, Kelly wanted to take care of Martin and keep her gainfully employed while he was waiting to use her evidence against Finney in the event he was getting close to beating his friend Bob Fletcher.

So, there never was any reason to do code inspections in Saint Paul other than to maintain the cover up of the murder of Barbara Winn.

It makes perfect sense now.

And, why didn't the judge see how this all came together?

JMONTOMEPPOF

Chuck Repke; 8:33 AM
Bob said...: Chuck, how in the hell does your mind work? Ya know sometimes this blog turns into a carnival. You operate the Merry Go Round and Eric runs the Scrambler. :)

My mind is pondering why she has such a good memory concerning Aaron Foster then all of a sudden during the deposition.

I can't remember
I don't know
I can't recall
on and on and on.

What is she smoking?; 8:51 AM
Bob said...: I want citizens to see what I am talking about concerning Lisa Martins interview with the Maplewood police.

So, folks when you get to the site I linked earlier. Scroll down to the police report dated 3/12/02.
file #81005328

I have to go to work or I will lose a client. See you all later today.; 9:21 AM
Anonymous said...: Bob, what was your seventh grade history teacher's first lecture after returning from Xmas break?

Don't remember?
Can't recall?
You don't know?

Well, let me just list you as one of those hostile witnesses that was clearly trying to hide something.

Like I said in an earlier post these questions that there is no way the witness can answer makes good theater for the poor boobs that pay for the lawyer and who read this blog, but have nothing to do with the case.

What is the definition of a rodent harborage?

Same thing folks. The only answer unless you have the City's definition committed to memory and nobody would is; "I don't know."

You can't answer it any other way, because if you say it wrong you are lying. So, "I don't know."

Did you ever condemn a property for only rodent infestation?

"I don't remember."

No other answer is possible if you don't have the file in front of you.

How often do you speak to neighbors?

What the F does that mean? There is no answer.

Again, useless, silly questions that gained nothing.

JMONTOMEPPOF

Chuck Repke; 11:37 AM
Bob said...: Chucks example of a question he didn't think Lisa Martin could answer without being considered a liar?

What is the definition of a rodent harborage?

Even I know what a rodent harborage is! And this isn't something I have been trained in or learned on the job as a handyman for many years.

Rodent Horbarage.

It is a place where rodents seek shelter or refuge. It isn't hard to determine evidences of rodents. Droppings (feces)- is there a large amount or a small amount. Are the dropping scattered through out the dwelling or confined to a location. How big are the droppings. Identifiable nesting activity. Chewing baseboards, holes.

Jeeesh, who hasn't lived in an old house and seen these things? Come on folks Chuck would like to see all you here sucking lollipops and smiling at his performance.

Lisa Martin is a building code inspector. Do any of you out there think that maybe she should know these things?; 12:28 PM
Anonymous said...: Sorry Mr Johnson you do not have the complete definition.

"Harborage" means rodent infestation or providing food or nesting areas for rodents, which may be identified by the presence of burrows, droppings, tracks, runways, gnawings, urine stains, odor, live or dead rodents, nests, and rodent gnawed food....

Since you clearly do not know the definition for Harborage, then how could you be writing people up for those violations!

Its a gotcha question Bob. You answer it without the complete definition and you will be spending the rest of the day answering questions about why you gave an incomplete definition.

She gets how lawyers like that play.

JMONTOMEPPOF

Chuck Repke; 1:19 PM
Anonymous said...: Doesn't ti make sense to just have the owner correct the situation rather than condemning and having people live in the street. Where are the health and saftey concerns of the renter best served....with the renter living in the street ot reamining in the unit and having the landlord correct the problem. Do you think that every time someone gets a mouse or rat in their house that they move out and do a code compliance Chcuk. That's rediculous!; 2:20 PM
Anonymous said...: Evil property owners Chuck?Are you serious?Just ran past Thune and Repkes house the other day and they still look like shit.

You guys aren't evil but sure are slumlords.

Your Friend,
Tim Ciani; 9:24 AM

A DEMOCRACY TOWN HALL

Monday, December 29, 2008

Citizens of Saint Paul -vs- The City of Saint Paul Part 3 "Testimony of Code Inspector Lisa Martin"

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